[profro]

that while downhill skiing and slalom require the skill to steer on off camber, the mountain biking equivalent is becoming more bermy?

Makes you wonder how lame skiing would be if the just littered the hill with berms or how more awesome mountain biking would be with less berms.

 

[Gary]

 

[troy]

Go back to pinkbike Mr R. Cunningham.

 

[profro]

Don't know who that is, or what the reference is. I was just thinking while I watched the olympic alpine skiing I noticed there weren't any berms and was thrilled to watch them go 60mph across a really steep side hill and how lame it would be if they had berms and bench cuts to aid. Why have berms become synonymous with modern mountain biking?

 

[Gallain]

Don't know who that is, or what the reference is. I was just thinking while I watched the olympic alpine skiing I noticed there weren't any berms and was thrilled to watch them go 60mph across a really steep side hill and how lame it would be if they had berms and bench cuts to aid. Why have berms become synonymous with modern mountain biking?

And skier/border cross... And bobsleigh... And luge.. and motocross to some extent...

Why would we want beginners to be able to use the mountain and go fast and have really fun?
No, I say! Let's make wet grass off camber corners mandated in wc dh!

 

[profro]

So, in your view alpine slalom, super G and downhill are lame because they don't have berms like bobsled, border cross, luge and even motocross? You prefer to see beginners getting rad in berms on a downhill ski course?

I'm serious, sell me why mtb is better with berms or why you think alpine skiing is lame without.

 

[jonKranked]

 

[troy]

Don't know who that is, or what the reference is. I was just thinking while I watched the olympic alpine skiing I noticed there weren't any berms and was thrilled to watch them go 60mph across a really steep side hill and how lame it would be if they had berms and bench cuts to aid. Why have berms become synonymous with modern mountain biking?

Thought, You were referring to this:
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/opinion-does-downhill-have-nowhere-else-to-go.html

 

[jstuhlman]

you know what’s super fruitful? comparing apples to oranges.

 

[profro]

Thought, You were referring to this:
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/opinion-does-downhill-have-nowhere-else-to-go.html

Words...

I don't know about all that, haven't thought that deep.

I just excited to watch the super G I think it was. No practice (or maybe 1 inspection run ) but watching the best in the world struggle to make gates on blind off camber was really exciting. I imagine it would be awesome to ride as well. Unlike watching an entire field take a berm in pretty much the exact same manner.

 

[jonKranked]

Let's not forget here...

The FIS cares about downhill skiing events. The uci does not care about downhill mountain biking events.

 

[toodles]

Aren't skis like 100 times easier to turn on off-camber though? A berm is the opposite of what you want when you're relying on an edge to get bite for turning.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Aren't skis like 100 times easier to turn on off-camber though?

Yup. Having razors attached directly to your feet makes a real carve fairly easy.

There really is no equivalency to rubber tires on dirt.

 

[jstuhlman]

Yup. Having razors attached directly to your feet makes a real carve fairly easy.

There really is no equivalency to rubber tires on dirt.

 

[StiHacka]

There really is no equivalency to rubber tires on dirt.

I find the weight management (loading / unloading) very similar in fast tight spaced corners though.

 

[marshalolson]

I want to ride bikes like how ted ligety races GS

 

[Westy]

I am embarrassed that the country with the most per capita guns in the world couldn't even field a competitor in the women's 12.5k shooting biathlon.

Next thing you know we will lose our #1 ranking in the competitive eating major leagues.

 

[SylentK]

I get what you're saying.

But what about that one format in the ski downhill where they don't get any practice runs, just inspection. That's nuts! Truly one run and done!

 

[Kanye West]

Skis are most stable and have the most traction when they are on edge and the side cut is fully engaged.

Mountain bikes have the most grip when going straight and on the center knobs.

 

[Westy]

Skis are most stable and have the most traction when they are on edge and the side cut is fully engaged.

Mountain bikes have the most grip when going straight and on the center knobs.

Well then, just put the center knobs on the side.

 

[Muddy]

I am embarrassed that the country with the most per capita guns in the world couldn't even field a competitor in the women's 12.5k shooting biathlon.

Fixed that for you.

 

[mykel]

I just don't get the berm-hate.
They are like anything else, if overused they get some stick.
It is not the berms fault, but the idiot(s) who used one where not needed or improperly used.

Face, it we have probably all ridden a trail that has berms that make you go huh - why the F is that there? As well as trails that desperately need a berm at a certain location, such as to catch your sorry ass before a sudden ending of the ground requiring a mandatory ER visit if you totally ball things up.

Bermy jumpy flowy trails are fun.
Natural trails are fun.
A combination of the two if done correctly utilizing the terrain can be biggly fun.

If you are on a long downhill pointed dirt trail whilst riding a foot-cycle - you are already winning yuge.

From my experience with regards to riders and ability. Newbies tend to like the bermy stuff as it is not as intimidating as raw, it lets them develop some balance / body position, braking, airtime etc etc. Eventually they start to look at the natural stuff and go from there. Experienced riders tend to tech out then mellow out for a few laps on the bermy stuff, then back to the tech etc etc.

Now, old farts like me who grew up on nothing but tech - well as you get older and your balls shrink, you tend to slow down; you don't bounce anymore, and if you do come off the bike, recovery takes a lot longer, so the mix type and the full on bermy stuff gets more use.
I for example since the TBI concussions can no longer ride a double black at anything more than a check-it out / slow cruise pace, I just can not visually process terrain at speed especially if it is nasty. Blacks I'm good if a bit slow, Blues I still rock . So my favorite trail type is now a mix of tech and flow, which I think is the hardest to get right build wise.

And yes, all WC DH courses should have at least one decently fast nasty off camber grassy, greasy whooped out cluster-fuck of a corner.

 

[Flo33]

Aren't skis like 100 times easier to turn on off-camber though?

You would be fairly surprised if you would try to turn in high speed on a FIS Worldcup event off camber turn as a mere mortal skier. What looks like snow is bare ice. Even with the steel edges on skis that's a not so easy task.

But what about that one format in the ski downhill where they don't get any practice runs, just inspection. That's nuts! Truly one run and done!

That's the format in Super G. Only one inspection run in walking speed. In downhill there are one to three full speed training runs. Speed in downhill is much higher though.


I think it's the mixture that makes for an interesting event. My favorite track was the original Maribor track, where all was present. High speed berms (watch Nico in NWD2), off camber, rock gardens and lots of roots. The end.

 

[Gallain]

So, in your view alpine slalom, super G and downhill are lame because they don't have berms like bobsled, border cross, luge and even motocross? You prefer to see beginners getting rad in berms on a downhill ski course?

I'm serious, sell me why mtb is better with berms or why you think alpine skiing is lame without.

Have you ever been on a properly prepared dh skiing slope? You can't ride it. You have to be so trained and have such good technique that it's unbelievable. Thats why so few can do it. I think it's embarrassing that 95% of the people on a black diamond ski slope don't belong there but they think they can go down it in style.
Berms let you go faster around a corner, that's it.

 

[sethimus]

that while downhill skiing and slalom require the skill to steer on off camber, the mountain biking equivalent is becoming more bermy?

Makes you wonder how lame skiing would be if the just littered the hill with berms or how more awesome mountain biking would be with less berms.

there is the perfect product for you in this article:

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/north-american-handmade-bicycle-show-2018.html

 

[mrgto]

I think off camber terrain should be a skill new riders need to learn instead of making every trail a participation award. I’ve raced motorcycles and cars and there are plenty of off camber and neutral turns in both sports. Hell just riding my motorcycle on the street you see off camber/neutral turns everywhere. I understand the whole make some trails easier for new riders, but I think the powers to be in the sport are getting a little too carried away with the idea. I know in my area techical trails are in the minority now with all the new trails being machine built flow trails.

 

[SinatorJ]

I think off camber terrain should be a skill new riders need to learn instead of making every trail a participation award. I’ve raced motorcycles and cars and there are plenty of off camber and neutral turns in both sports. Hell just riding my motorcycle on the street you see off camber/neutral turns everywhere. I understand the whole make some trails easier for new riders, but I think the powers to be in the sport are getting a little too carried away with the idea. I know in my area techical trails are in the minority now with all the new trails being machine built flow trails.

Mountain biking is all about the participation award. If it cannot be ridden cleanly the 1st time, it must be rebuilt. Something clearly amiss.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

quit.whining.and.ride.

 

[Carraig042]

I think off camber terrain should be a skill new riders need to learn instead of making every trail a participation award.

There are many snowflakes out there that want to be able to ride 'cool' trails, but dont want the higher risk of falling or situations that cause them to have to walk sections as they learn...

-Brett

 

[canadmos]

I don't understand this, but then again off camber trails still exist and are still being included in new trails around here.

Only the popular riding spots avoid off camber stuff, as generally off camber sections of trail will get chewed up and widened a little too much.

 

[wiscodh]

nah, its really fucking fun to race berms of snow....

mt baker Legendary Banked Slalom

 

[Gallain]

There are many snowflakes out there that want to be able to ride 'cool' trails, but dont want the higher risk of falling or situations that cause them to have to walk sections as they learn...

-Brett

Yes, I'm thinking a bit from the perspective that I want the places with lift access to stay open. If all the trails are to difficult people won't go there and spend money so they can build awesome dh tracks for me.

 

[profro]

nah, its really fucking fun to race berms of snow....

View attachment 127929

mt baker Legendary Banked Slalom

I don't know that I would classify that as bermed in the modern sense. That is just a clever use of the terrain. But perhaps I can't really see it well enough.

 

[FarkinRyan]

As long as the trail is steep enough it's also super fun to snowboard down bermed flow trails, like a one-up boardercross track. Berms in the snow on a snowboard are rad in general. @wiscodh knows what's up.

 

[Westy]

If off camber turns are better, does that mean the uphill parts of downhills are the best part?

 

[iRider]

If off camber turns are better, does that mean the uphill parts of downhills are the best part?

Both will separate the men from the boys.

 

[Metamorphic]

 

[Electric_City]

that while downhill skiing and slalom require the skill to steer on off camber, the mountain biking equivalent is becoming more bermy?

Makes you wonder how lame skiing would be if the just littered the hill with berms or how more awesome mountain biking would be with less berms.

I couldn't agree more. Imagine how awesome A-line would be without berms. You'd have to come around some of those turns on your brakes and then pedal as fast as possible in the perfect gear for 20' to try to clear the next 10 tables. I personally couldn't agree more. It sounds fun.

 

[fwp]

I love the old school techy rocky runs, but I'm old and from the east coast. People out west in alot of areas don't have access to the same kind of East coast/ New england tech. terrain I can see why people love the bermy jump trails as they are alot of fun too. As long as a mountain has a good mix of both, I'm all for it. The more people getting into the gravity side of the sport the better imo, if it takes smoothed out manicured trails so be it. A bike park should have every king of riding.
A world cup DH track should be un rideable for 99% of the population, Unfortunately the women have to safely run the same course, and the amount of riders with the potential to win goes from around 10 to less than 5 on the hardest tracks in the world. I think if every track was like a schladming/ champery/ val di sole level, the sport would be better in determining who is the most skilled rider. The downside would be knowing who was most likely going to win every race, Then again thats pretty much where were at now when rachel is healthy and Gwin doesn't have a mechanical or crash.
I say make downhill WC tracks great again!

 

[William42]

Crazy how two different racing sports that have totally different riding mechanics might have strengths and weaknesses in different areas.