Yes, of course doctors are impervious to marketing. That's why pharma sales reps are old ugly guys with degrees in chemistry and biology instead of ditzy ex college cheerleaders with fake tits and expense accounts that are 6 figures to start...
Arrested for BBWSIYOH
- Thread starter dante
- Start date
Actually, what would be better is the quote from the horse's mouth. I don't see how citing other peoples' opinions, particularly from blatantly biased sources is supposed to clarify things. Don't you know better, Mr. 1181here...is this better mr. 4341? says the same thing but from a source your professors might prefer
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32092715/ns/us_news-race_and_ethnicity/
, than to take 2nd or 3rd hand information as gospel? ...actually, now that i think about it, the gospel is at least a 2nd hand "account" so maybe not.
I read that piece.at least we have a prez who understands the facts of the case before he makes a blanket statement about LEO's (and money grubbing doctors to boot)
http://www.examiner.com/x-17827-Anne-Arundel-County-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m7d24-Obama-maligns-doctors-and-police-officers-instead-of-explaining-health-care
Here is one quote from the actual press conference:
I agree with all of that, including number two.President Obama said:
I still think the arrest is unnecessary, no matter how unpleasant or intractable Gates was.
This is the part about dealing with cops that many people hate. While Gates was at fault here, no one likes to be hassled. If anyone else did it to me, I could give them the finger and that's my business. If I did that to a cop, I could be arrested.
As for the other part:
I do hope Crowley and Gates meet and work it out.
i didn't even know that MOS exists! 
No, and this is a common misconception.
Charges are dropped all the time, even if people actually did something wrong. (Oftentimes, privileged whites, like many Harvard professors!!)
But mostly, it's because arrest and conviction require different standards of proof. A cop makes an arrest based on probable cause. However solid that PC was, it may not meet the judicial standard of beyond a reasonable doubt. If it can't be established or in some cases takes too much work to establish, especially for a minor offense, the prosecutor's office just drops the charges.
In cases of contempt of cop, it's SOP to drop the charges. Why? Because the prosecutor knows that there is no way in hell he can get a conviction and Lionel Hutz can successfully argue the case on behalf of the defendant.
The only reason this gets any attention is because Gates has a media bullhorn. Without that, it's just something that cops do every single day.
Guy was a dick = "probable cause" to take his ass down? I mean that's really the heart of the issue here, right?
It seems to me like, in the mind of LEO's at all levels, an arrest is just a simple formality that even if proven a mistake, requires no apology (legally I know this to be true) and that us regular folks should feel blessed that you've not taken it upon yourselves to hassle us in such a manner, because you have the ability and professional credibility to do so whenever you damned well please.
I think that's perverse.
You're really turned into an ACLU spouting dirty ****ing hippie...
I wonder what the founding fathers would have thought about the situation?
I agree strongly. I have never been arrested, never even had the cuffs on.
Now, let's say I had a thing about being harassed by cops, like if I was black.
All I said was that dropping the charges doesn't equal some sort of admission that the police were wrong...BurleyShirley said:
You're right that the heart of the issue is whether the cop had true PC for an arrest, which is an issue most of us online will never have a qualified opinion on.
EDIT:Just read the police report on thesmokinggun. If that's all true, the man followed a cop and continued harassing him, even when the cop was attempting to break off contact at the completion of his investigation. Once he entered public view and continued to do so, this could easily meet the standard of PC for disorderly conduct, especially after ignoring warnings to cease.
Better move on the cop's part? Roll eyes and walk away. Perhaps write letter to Harvard with a copy to the Harvard police describing this conduct and asking for an apology by Gates to the Cambridge police.
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Ain't that the truth. Avoid whole mess and still come out on top.
But this little tidbit is telling;
Apparently he was being racially profiled over the phone.
Even though no race was given.
That has to be the most egreious form or racial profiling I have ever heard of.
I like how all the Gates backers keep saying he was tricked, or some how manipulated into going outside to be arrested. If the police report is to be believed the cop said (paraphrasing here) "If you have anymore questions, I'll be outside".
It could have ended right there if not for him following the cop outside...
Which means that Gates flew off the handle and acted like an asshole in his own house.
That's not a reason to arrest anyone...
Whereas, as a former Constitutional Law Professor, President Obama well understands that all Americans are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and their actions should not be prejudged prior to being fully and fairly judged by an appropriate and objective authority after due process;
Whereas, I'm not surprised a Republican legislator doesn't know that being stupid isn't a crime...Doesn't this guy have a trail to hike or an airport bathroom to cruise?
Whereas, I'm not surprised a Republican legislator doesn't know that being stupid isn't a crime...Doesn't this guy have a trail to hike or an airport bathroom to cruise?
And here is the heart of the issue:
Put a government worker behind a desk and give him the power to regulate, and conservatives will wax at length about public choice theory, bureaucratic pettiness, and the trappings of power. And rightly so. But put a government worker behind a badge, strap a gun to his waist, and give him the power to detain, use force, and kill, and those lessons somehow no longer apply.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/135039.html
Put a government worker behind a desk and give him the power to regulate, and conservatives will wax at length about public choice theory, bureaucratic pettiness, and the trappings of power. And rightly so. But put a government worker behind a badge, strap a gun to his waist, and give him the power to detain, use force, and kill, and those lessons somehow no longer apply.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/135039.html
What a great use of legislative time. McCotter must have missed the memo that the hill is currently working on a set of challenges unprecedented in number and scale that are critical to our nation's health.
to petty political grandstanding while the nation burns.
There has been a lot of information that's come up in this thread, including that statutes on Disorderly Conduct, whether wrongful arrest is ok if charges are ultimately dropped, legal education/background of police officers, etc and the best you can come up with are opinion pieces and legislation pushed by a Congressman from Michigan? How about a little insight as to any of the other questions that have been debated on this thread? What's your state's definition of Disorderly Conduct, when have you applied it (or would apply it) against someone, what's your take on dragging someone to jail if you know that the charges will ultimately be dropped, etc?
fresh material...ever?
You do know how easy it is to do a search by keyword and username, right?
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207178&highlight=clinton
By your standards, I should be making Larry Craig jokes well into the next decade...
Terrible song said:
Anybody get their uber-lib hands on the tapes hosted at boston.com? No racial profiling in that call, except for the dispatch officer asking the race of the possible perps, which could simply be for identification purposes (dear God, how?)
The radio tapes don't reveal much besides Gates bitching in the background.
But this is definitely a racial matter, still. Keep beating that dead horse. Cops are all terrible people and none of them are ever right. This guy definitely didn't follow protocol and he hates black people, since he teaches his whole department how to racially profile.
You guys have changed focus from racial profiling to whether he was justly arrested just so you can keep arguing.
to that.
yes, i have arrested for disorderly conduct and no, the charges weren't dropped. there are laws on the books for situations that can only be solved by removing the problem person(s) from the area. remember, one part of a police officers job is to "keep the peace" and if there is someone repeatedly causing a disturbance for no good reason and the officer has made a reasonable attempt to calm the situation through other means, an arrest is often the only way to solve the problem.
the arresting officer did an outstanding job of trying to quell the disturbance by simply walking outside, off of gate's property but gates followed and continued to cause a scene. the officer wrote in his report that the disturbance caused several passers by to stop and "appear surprised and alarmed by gates outburst".
would i have done the same? yes. some people need to be reminded that the law applies to EVERYONE regardless of whether the cop knows "who he's messing with".
there is no such thing as a "wrongful arrest" if there is probable cause that the offense occurred. there is also a great system of checks and balances to ensure that there are no wrongful arrest. if i arrest some dude for cursing in public (NC General Statute 14-197 http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_14/gs_14-197.html )
i have to take him before the magistrate who then decides whether i have probable cause for the charge. if the magistrate deems that i do not have enough PC for the charge, the subject is released immediately and his arrest record reflects the lack of PC. however, once i testify to the magistrate and he/she agrees that the arrest was lawful ie: enough PC, the magistrate then decides what type of bond the subject gets. usually for disorderly conduct type of charges they'll get a written promise to appear in court and walk out. then, comes their day in court where i have to prove my case against them, not the other way around.
i added the "opinion" pieces because they were based on pre-stated facts of the case and i didn't really feel like i should have to explain the inner-workings of my local laws to you. i've done my law homework in the form of a criminal justice degree and 120 hours of legal updates per year over the past 6 years and i don't feel like giving a dissertation of law to you armchair quarterbacks that took a constitutional law course in college and think you "know your rights."
in the end, the cop was fully justified in arresting gates and had it been anyone other than a Friend of Obama, Inc., it would have been just any other day of keeping the peace.
So, now his front porch isn't his property anymore?
And people wonder how police reports end up looking like the cop has a halo...you're doing it an internet forum, for ****'s sake.
You feel fine doing that on other subjects, where you have zero expertise.i added the "opinion" pieces because they were based on pre-stated facts of the case and i didn't really feel like i should have to explain the inner-workings of my local laws to you. i've done my law homework in the form of a criminal justice degree and 120 hours of legal updates per year over the past 6 years and i don't feel like giving a dissertation of law to you armchair quarterbacks that took a constitutional law course in college and think you "know your rights."
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58734&highlight=evolution
since when did "his property" have anything to do with it. if what happens on "his property" is a disruption to the peace then it matters not.
considering that your definition of "expertise" lacks any mention of rational thought, i take that as a compliment.
thanks, I really appreciate that post. we may not agree, but I like getting your side of the story as you're the only person who really can speak with knowledge and real world experience about these situations. the fact that you have arrested people for disorderly conduct and had enough evidence to have the case go forward speaks volumes, as many people I know who have been detained for that (during the 2004 Republican convention, for example) were held as long as possible and then released without charges. My friend was arrested during the Critical Mass in NYC on Friday evening, and then sat in the so-called "jail" (floating barge) until Monday before being released without charges. The excuse was that there was no judge to arraign during the weekend, but the fact that he was released without having to go before a judge makes that argument moot. That is not exactly my idea of "checks and balances"...
In Wire speak he got a "humble".
No, it was the casual way you turned the actual events (according to police report, which I'm not even disputing, and is by definition one side of the story) which was this:
Come outside and I'll give you my name. (Which Crowley never did do when he was outside, according to the report)
Into this:
the arresting officer did an outstanding job of trying to quell the disturbance by simply walking outside, off of gate's property but gates followed and continued to cause a scene.
You don't even notice you do it, do you? Crowley never got off the property, nor did he attempt to. He also didn't try to quell the disturbance, which he apparently could have done by providing a citizen who was asking for information he is justified to ask for in his own house.
Serious question: Do God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit count as the public for a disorderly conduct arrest?
you didn't read the report very well did you?
crowley left the house and went outside because he couldn't hear communications over gates' yelling. he had given gates his name twice before he walked out and gates continued asking for his name. crowley went outside so he could hear his radio and discovered other officers AND NEIGHBORS were observing the incident.
gates could have resolved the whole situation had he acted like a normal citizen instead of someone claiming constant victimization. here's a rundown of how a reasonable person reacts when a situation like this occurs.
[same scenario: officer is dispatched to a call of possible break-in at a house that has recently been burglarized ]
officer arrives and observes someone inside.
officer (o): sir, can you step outside with me for a moment?
citizen (c): who are you?
o: i am officer awesome with the metro PD
c: oh..sure..what seems to be the problem officer?
o: well, someone saw two subject forcing their way into your door and i'm investigating that call
c: oh...haha..no problem here officer, i locked myself out and had to force my way in.
o: oh..haha..hate it when that happens. do you have any ID to prove that this is your house?
c: sure do, here you go officer...i sure am glad you're this thorough...my house was broken into recently and i appreciate all the extra patrol here we can get.
o: okay..looks like you DO live here. sure is a bummer you had to break your door...have a good night sir.
c: you too officer, be safe.
that's how a normal conversation goes between citizens and officers and it's how this incident STARTED out (don't say people don't talk like that 'cause i've had a nearly identical conversation with a homeowner) until gates made an ass out of himself with his racial tirade without even considering the fact that officers were there for his benefit.
nope, the town drunk has to witness it
more like a "time out" box until the event is over.
Sure did.
Ironically, the fact that Gates flew off the handle with the charge of racism makes the speech clearly political, and courts in MA have found that political speech is not something that can make you guilty of disorderly conduct.
The fact that Gates didn't act like your normal citizen doesn't matter. He isn't obligated to act that way, and acting like an ass is perfectly legal.
C'mon, you're smarter than that. Political content *alone* can't make speech disorderly, true. But this had nothing to do with the content of the speech, it had to do with the form.
If I'm downtown walking up to people and screaming in their faces about how races shouldn't mix (which I do all the time here in central Africa, lemme tell ya), I'm disorderly (among many other things), despite the fact that I happen to be spouting political content while doing so.
And there's no law against being an ass in your own home. There are laws which govern disorderly conduct in public. The fact that he was within the curtailage of his home is not legally pertinent, as the speech/conduct penetrated the public sphere. You can't, say, have loud sex on your front porch and claim you're doing it in private.
Again, I think the officer would have been better served by walking away and either laughing it off, writing a letter, or taking the case to a judge and having a summons issued so that the esteemed man in the robe could give Gates a decent talking-to. But that doesn't mean it was somehow wrong to arrest someone who was, in fact, in violation of a law.
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