If a racer misses his assigned start time at a downhill race should he/she be allowed to race?
Assigned start times
- Thread starter downhill mike
- Start date
Not unless there's a damn good reason (the uplift getting stuck in a ditch for example 
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I say yes...DH racing is such a small sport that in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal to let him or her go at the end of another class or something. Pissing paying customers off is not a way to get them to come back...hence the multiple people I've met who no longer race at plattekill because of timing issues.
DH racing should be fun, provided it doesn't piss off or ruin the people who do it professionally.
DH racing should be fun, provided it doesn't piss off or ruin the people who do it professionally.
yes if its outta your control no if you where being a dumb ass and where late.
I think Big Bear gave you a 20-30 second penalty for being late in the late 90's to early 2002 or so.
No need to be missing published start times, unless it involves lift issues or the like.
I can see giving a pass to "lower" classes, but in the more competitive classes bunching the riders together is a form of (possibly false!) equity in terms of course condition.
I can see giving a pass to "lower" classes, but in the more competitive classes bunching the riders together is a form of (possibly false!) equity in terms of course condition.
I like our phat wednesday series here in whistler, no start times, roll up, they call your number in the gate over the radio, away you go....
Mike, as we discussed today, Im not sure of the correct answer here. Most importantly. racers need to know the policy upfront and it must be applied evenly. We and MANY others no longer race/ride at a certain mountain because they enforced the policy based on how well they knew you.
My first thought is no as rules should be followed and there's a reason for start times. If things are running ahead of schedule, the riders that miss the earlier times should be given the chance up to their posted start time. This happened to us a that certain mountain as well.
I guess the best thing may be to enforce the rule for Pro and maybe Cat1 but to let the Cat2 and 3 racers go as long as they show up before the Catagory is finished.
My first thought is no as rules should be followed and there's a reason for start times. If things are running ahead of schedule, the riders that miss the earlier times should be given the chance up to their posted start time. This happened to us a that certain mountain as well.
I guess the best thing may be to enforce the rule for Pro and maybe Cat1 but to let the Cat2 and 3 racers go as long as they show up before the Catagory is finished.
I say no, i bust my ass and sit for an hour in the sun before the race starts, why? because i dont want to miss my start time and its my obligation (since i signed up) to show up. Why should you be able to cruise the mtn, go to the car and get a drink, and show up at any time to race, just knowing you will go last. (which allegedly has its advantages)
I'm with you on that. It is not only advantageous to have that extra rest /preparation/whatever and go last but it creates room for exploitation if someone expects the course to dry for example. Wait like the others or go home
With pros going last wouldn't that delay the start time for the pros (and the cat 1 for that matter)?
The USAC rule is to have start times posted at least 1 hour before the start of the race. At our Nevada event the timers were so good (CJ Sports Timing) we had the start times online the previous night, then posted them around race village at least 4 hours before the noon start time.
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If you had a five minute break between classes you could fit in one or two Cat2/3 racers without delaying anyone. I am suggesting this for grassroots type races not Nationals or the sort.
Again I think the most important thing is for all racers to know the policy and for the venues to enforce the rules fairly.
At the first ESC race Mount Snow had start time posted befor we went home Saturday. They fit in the 6 or seven that came for just Sunday by using the 5 min break between classes.
btw, I voted "NO".
Excellent comments and I agree with the importance of all racers knowing the set rules. The miss your start/miss your race rule is a rule the promoter/organizer can make.
We could easily fit an extra few minutes after classes on our 5 K DH. However, when we put on races out west at Bootleg Canyon in February, time just doesn't allow. For example; It gets dark at 4:30 and the numbers of racers out west seem to be in 250 to 300 range at Bootleg. And you always must leave time for a legitimate re-run, or a course hold (near the bottom of the course). Basically, you may not always have a few minutes to add between classes.
It's also nice to have all racers leave at 1 minute increments if possible.
So far most on Ridemonkey agree you have to make your start time. I have a identical poll on my Facebook page, and most there say to just sneak them in somewhere else. Please note that most friends on my Facebook account are downhillers too.
Please keep the comments and poll answers coming. I believe this kind of stuff will make for better racing!
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if your late then you dont race no exceptions even if your a local or related to someone, its race day not mow the lawn wash the car before the race day
Wanted to elaborate on this a tiny bit more than i did before, When i was at the highland GRT, it was astounding how many re-runs were available. I went up last minute in a thunderstorm, and there was a line of people that missed.
Somebody mentioned before that it was okay for cat 2/3 but not for cat 1 and pro. I neither agree or disagree, since i think if you miss it you miss the race, learn from your mistakes. I do NOT agree with this, and while i dont think its acceptable, i bring up the other side. Many people say cat 2/3 doesnt matter, or isnt serious, and maybe they wont be the next WC winners, but that said, id be willing to bet that they are fighting just has hard as the cat 1 and pro riders. It may not be taken seriously looking down on it, but im sure kids in sport want to get on the box just as much as the cat 1 riders. I also think that based on that logic, it would be smarter to punish the cat 2/3 rather than the cat1 pros. If (example) sam hill misses his start time and cannot race, well he just missed a paycheck (yes there is more to it than that, but its his LIVING) Its probably better in the grand scheme of things to let him ride, after all, he has to feed his family. If a cat 2/3 rider misses their start time, chances are, on monday they are back in the daily grind until the next race weekend. I would think that the more "serious" and "dependent" classes should have the option of re-runs, at least monetarily speaking.
This said, you registered, show up. I know many people that just mozy on over to the start gate when they feel like and ride later. I disapprove, if i miss, i dont deserve to race, even if i feel like im totally going to do well, dont show, dont ride. simple as that
Somebody mentioned before that it was okay for cat 2/3 but not for cat 1 and pro. I neither agree or disagree, since i think if you miss it you miss the race, learn from your mistakes. I do NOT agree with this, and while i dont think its acceptable, i bring up the other side. Many people say cat 2/3 doesnt matter, or isnt serious, and maybe they wont be the next WC winners, but that said, id be willing to bet that they are fighting just has hard as the cat 1 and pro riders. It may not be taken seriously looking down on it, but im sure kids in sport want to get on the box just as much as the cat 1 riders. I also think that based on that logic, it would be smarter to punish the cat 2/3 rather than the cat1 pros. If (example) sam hill misses his start time and cannot race, well he just missed a paycheck (yes there is more to it than that, but its his LIVING) Its probably better in the grand scheme of things to let him ride, after all, he has to feed his family. If a cat 2/3 rider misses their start time, chances are, on monday they are back in the daily grind until the next race weekend. I would think that the more "serious" and "dependent" classes should have the option of re-runs, at least monetarily speaking.
This said, you registered, show up. I know many people that just mozy on over to the start gate when they feel like and ride later. I disapprove, if i miss, i dont deserve to race, even if i feel like im totally going to do well, dont show, dont ride. simple as that
Assigned start order. Every time. Otherwise, you open yourself up to slackers and cheats.
1. Racing is a timed event (that means structure)
2. Racing is only racing if it's timed well
3. Racing is only timed well if start order is assigned
4. Racing is better a dry course and the longer you wait, the better the course
5. Racing is affected by elements. Assigned start order ensures elements by class are consistent
6. Cheaters and slackers who want to do races so they can get runs in on cool courses...SUCK IT UP and don't be slack for 1 day.
Scenarios with lifts breaking down or mechanicals are easily avoided if you are at the start 30 minutes before your start. I have been known to slack and get caught. Pretty sure the course was dried out way more too. Shouldn't have let me do a run but they did.
It was not fair.
1. Racing is a timed event (that means structure)
2. Racing is only racing if it's timed well
3. Racing is only timed well if start order is assigned
4. Racing is better a dry course and the longer you wait, the better the course
5. Racing is affected by elements. Assigned start order ensures elements by class are consistent
6. Cheaters and slackers who want to do races so they can get runs in on cool courses...SUCK IT UP and don't be slack for 1 day.
Scenarios with lifts breaking down or mechanicals are easily avoided if you are at the start 30 minutes before your start. I have been known to slack and get caught. Pretty sure the course was dried out way more too. Shouldn't have let me do a run but they did.
It was not fair.
Oh, and I didn't vote Mike because there wasn't a "...but if..." option. 
The problem promoters face is getting a customer mad. There is a very limited market from which to draw from. Racers do get mad and can't when they miss a start for whatever reason. Racers get mad when someone that misses their start gets to race at a later time, when track conditions will be different.
I have seen kids miss their time by seconds only to be turned away and I have seen a racer allowed a restart after he flatted just past the start gate.
I do think with some of the delay possibly being due to a lift problem/long line or whatever, some allowances should be allowed. Maybe a short time allowance could be made. Maybe 5 min the same time between classes so the last rider would have the same amount of allowance. This would also make sure they raced "with" their class.
I really have no good answer to this, so please keep comments coming.
I have seen kids miss their time by seconds only to be turned away and I have seen a racer allowed a restart after he flatted just past the start gate.
I do think with some of the delay possibly being due to a lift problem/long line or whatever, some allowances should be allowed. Maybe a short time allowance could be made. Maybe 5 min the same time between classes so the last rider would have the same amount of allowance. This would also make sure they raced "with" their class.
I really have no good answer to this, so please keep comments coming.
Here is an example from our Nevada State Championship event last February at Bootleg Canyon.
We had the you miss your start time you don't race rule in effect. Maybe 10 people missed their start time and they were pissed. However, 250 racers were extremely happy that the awards went off on time. I was very surprised when I 1st started putting on races on how fast people want to get home. I guess I can't blame them as they usually have a long drive home, and it's Sunday evening.
One of these years I will have a race where everyone is stoked!
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Hah! You can please some of the people all the time or all of the people some of the time, you cant please all of the people all of the time.
My story is the opposite of yours, we had a race nearly 2 years ago where one class raced in the rain on a track that had been dry all weekend and dried out very fast, wet it was hard and slick. 2 riders missed their start by an hour and were allowed to race on a now drying and tacky track, they won and took second place (easily 10-15 seconds difference in the track). This left a bad taste in the mouths of everyone else, and some of the affected riders have not returned to racing since. There was no good reason for missing their start, it unfairly skewed the results and as a club it is one more reason to lose a few members.
Obviously someone will be unhappy with whatever decision you make, but to make people feel penalised for sitting at the top of a hill in the elements while others relax in the pits isn't ever going to be sustainable.
So my vote is NO, but only because there wasn't a box for Not without a bloody good reason.
Here are a few examples of issues that come up from over the years.
Nationals:
The top events for any and all racers who travel across the country. No exceptions on time lost unless the lift is messed up.
BUT.....at Snowshoe the last year, someone actually broadcast on the local news channel that there would be a time delay for the start the next morning for finals of either 1 or 2 hours (can't remember which).
Tons of people bought it hook, line and sinker. NORBA let virtually all the racers who showed up stating that to have a run...me and every guy I knew to a man being some of them. Some didn't ask and walked away with no run and a lost trip.
I was a seasoned Nationals racer and knew better...but I still bought into the stupid news channel thing. I knew better.
That is your crazy, off the wall reason for maybe once in a lifetime letting it happen.
The opposite:
We had an awesome timing guy several years back who just told a class to show up and line up. No order and he always got our times right. One guy (also known for cutting the courses) would always LITERALLY hide until last man.
Rain and fog in the south in the AM means a dry course and clean groove for the last man down. It was a huge advantage. Sneaky.
Nationals:
The top events for any and all racers who travel across the country. No exceptions on time lost unless the lift is messed up.
BUT.....at Snowshoe the last year, someone actually broadcast on the local news channel that there would be a time delay for the start the next morning for finals of either 1 or 2 hours (can't remember which).
Tons of people bought it hook, line and sinker. NORBA let virtually all the racers who showed up stating that to have a run...me and every guy I knew to a man being some of them. Some didn't ask and walked away with no run and a lost trip.
I was a seasoned Nationals racer and knew better...but I still bought into the stupid news channel thing. I knew better.
That is your crazy, off the wall reason for maybe once in a lifetime letting it happen.
The opposite:
We had an awesome timing guy several years back who just told a class to show up and line up. No order and he always got our times right. One guy (also known for cutting the courses) would always LITERALLY hide until last man.
Rain and fog in the south in the AM means a dry course and clean groove for the last man down. It was a huge advantage. Sneaky.
I guess I can see people abusing it, so maybe I could rationalize the cat 1 and pro getting no "advantage"....but just this weekend at snow, a cat 3 rider hurried up to the lift, let us know he should be up there, and we let him to the head of the line. He missed his class by like 1 minute or so...but they let him run at the end of the women's category which ran right after his. The course hadn't changed, he was maybe 2 minutes behind the last cat 3 men's rider, and he probably just had a mechanical or a bout of the sleepies and forgot his start time. Regardless, he got to race, and denying him would have pissed him off and possibly ruined the start of his racing career.
So, barring a wild course change or higher level competitor, I think it's silly to deny people a start time.
So, barring a wild course change or higher level competitor, I think it's silly to deny people a start time.
Yeah I see no harm there.....but in order to be fair to all competitors and leave no room for a dispute....all riders should go off at the assigned start times.
Assigned start order. Every time. Otherwise, you open yourself up to slackers and cheats.
1. Racing is a timed event (that means structure)
2. Racing is only racing if it's timed well
3. Racing is only timed well if start order is assigned
4. Racing is better a dry course and the longer you wait, the better the course
5. Racing is affected by elements. Assigned start order ensures elements by class are consistent
6. Cheaters and slackers who want to do races so they can get runs in on cool courses...SUCK IT UP and don't be slack for 1 day.
Scenarios with lifts breaking down or mechanicals are easily avoided if you are at the start 30 minutes before your start. I have been known to slack and get caught. Pretty sure the course was dried out way more too. Shouldn't have let me do a run but they did.
It was not fair.
Out West it is different. The courses tend to get more chewed up as the day goes on. Going later is often a dissadvantage. At our UT series we have a best of 2 run format so if you miss one you still have the other run. No excuses here unless the lift stops for an unusually long time. If someone just misses their start by a small amount we will put them at the end of their class, if time allows, so it rarely changes their start position by more than 10 people. If they completely miss their class then they have to count on their other run for results.
At bigger races I completely agree you have to make your assigned start time no matter what. There's just too many other racers to be making changes mid-race.
go-ride.com, I just answered the question for 1 run format races. For a 2 run format race, I always made an announcement:
If a bear comes out on course and mauls you, you do not get a re-run. You have 2 runs. Two run format should never ever get a re-run for any reason.
If a bear comes out on course and mauls you, you do not get a re-run. You have 2 runs. Two run format should never ever get a re-run for any reason.
I say yes.
This year at the sea otter as I was walking up to the start gate for my race run (15 min before my run), my rear tire went flat. The official let me know that if I miss my start time I am SOL. Its a huge bummer taking time off work, paying $100+ for a race entry, and then not being able to race. Thankfully I was able to find a tube, a pump, and tools to remove my rear wheel. I only ended up missing 20 seconds of my race run. Totally something I had no control over.
This year at the sea otter as I was walking up to the start gate for my race run (15 min before my run), my rear tire went flat. The official let me know that if I miss my start time I am SOL. Its a huge bummer taking time off work, paying $100+ for a race entry, and then not being able to race. Thankfully I was able to find a tube, a pump, and tools to remove my rear wheel. I only ended up missing 20 seconds of my race run. Totally something I had no control over.