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AT&T vs. Internet Freedom, Pt. 32 (etc)

Nobody

Danforth Kitchen Whore
Sep 5, 2001
1,511
58
Toronto
This was brought to my attention elsewhere. If this has already been posted, send me a link and i'll delete this one.

Quoted from elsewhere on the Web...

"Do you buy books online, use Google, or download to an Ipod? These activities, plus MoveOn's online organizing ability, will be hurt if Congress passes a radical law that gives giant corporations more control over the Internet.

Internet providers like AT&T and Verizon are lobbying Congress hard to gut Network Neutrality, the Internet's First Amendment. Net Neutrality prevents AT&T from choosing which websites open most easily for you based on which site pays AT&T more. Amazon doesn't have to outbid Barnes & Noble for the right to work more properly on your computer.

If Net Neutrality is gutted, MoveOn either pays protection money to dominant Internet providers or risks that online activism tools don't work for members. Amazon and Google either pay protection money or risk that their websites process slowly on your computer. That why these high-tech pioneers are joining the fight to protect Network Neutrality1—and you can do your part today.

The free and open Internet is under seige—can you sign this petition letting your member of Congress know you support preserving Network Neutrality? Click here:

http://www.civic.moveon.org/save_the_internet/?id=7356-5015618-wabnE9cHE5qtF3UrM_UetQ&t=4

Then, please forward this to 3 friends. Protecting the free and open Internet is fundamental—it affects everything. When you sign this petition, you'll be kept informed of the next steps we can take to keep the heat on Congress. Votes begin in a House committee next week.

MoveOn has already seen what happens when the Internet's gatekeepers get too much control. Just last week, AOL blocked any email mentioning a coalition that MoveOn is a part of, which opposes AOL's proposed "email tax."2 And last year, Canada's version of AT&T—Telus—blocked their Internet customers from visiting a website sympathetic to workers with whom Telus was negotiating.3

Politicians don't think we are paying attention to this issue. Many of them take campaign checks from big telecom companies and are on the verge of selling out to people like AT&T's CEO, who openly says, "The internet can't be free."4

Together, we can let Congress know we are paying attention. We can make sure they listen to our voices and the voices of people like Vint Cerf, a father of the Internet and Google's "Chief Internet Evangelist," who recently wrote this to Congress in support of preserving Network Neutrality:

My fear is that, as written, this bill would do great damage to the Internet as we know it. Enshrining a rule that broadly permits network operators to discriminate in favor of certain kinds of services and to potentially interfere with others would place broadband operators in control of online activity...Telephone companies cannot tell consumers who they can call; network operators should not dictate what people can do online.4

The essence of the Internet is at risk—can you sign this petition letting your member of Congress know you support preserving Network Neutrality? Click here:

http://www.civic.moveon.org/save_the_internet/?id=7356-5015618-wabnE9cHE5qtF3UrM_UetQ&t=5

Please forward to 3 others who care about this issue. Thanks for all you do.


If Congress abandons Network Neutrality, who will be affected?

* Advocacy groups like MoveOn—Political organizing could be slowed by a handful of dominant Internet providers who ask advocacy groups to pay "protection money" for their websites and online features to work correctly.
* Nonprofits—A charity's website could open at snail-speed, and online contributions could grind to a halt, if nonprofits can't pay dominant Internet providers for access to "the fast lane" of Internet service.
* Google users—Another search engine could pay dominant Internet providers like AT&T to guarantee the competing search engine opens faster than Google on your computer.
* Innovators with the "next big idea"—Startups and entrepreneurs will be muscled out of the marketplace by big corporations that pay Internet providers for dominant placing on the Web. The little guy will be left in the "slow lane" with inferior Internet service, unable to compete.
* Ipod listeners—A company like Comcast could slow access to iTunes, steering you to a higher-priced music service that it owned.
* Online purchasers—Companies could pay Internet providers to guarantee their online sales process faster than competitors with lower prices—distorting your choice as a consumer.
* Small businesses and tele-commuters—When Internet companies like AT&T favor their own services, you won't be able to choose more affordable providers for online video, teleconferencing, Internet phone calls, and software that connects your home computer to your office.
* Parents and retirees—Your choices as a consumer could be controlled by your Internet provider, steering you to their preferred services for online banking, health care information, sending photos, planning vacations, etc.
* Bloggers—Costs will skyrocket to post and share video and audio clips—silencing citizen journalists and putting more power in the hands of a few corporate-owned media outlets.

To sign the petition to Congress supporting "network neutrality," click here:
http://www.civic.moveon.org/save_the_internet/?id=7356-5015618-wabnE9cHE5qtF3UrM_UetQ&t=6

P.P.S. This excerpt from the New Yorker really sums up this issue well.

In the first decades of the twentieth century, as a national telephone network spread across the United States, A.T. & T. adopted a policy of "tiered access" for businesses. Companies that paid an extra fee got better service: their customers' calls went through immediately, were rarely disconnected, and sounded crystal-clear. Those who didn't pony up had a harder time making calls out, and people calling them sometimes got an "all circuits busy" response. Over time, customers gravitated toward the higher-tier companies and away from the ones that were more difficult to reach. In effect, A.T. & T.'s policy turned it into a corporate kingmaker.

If you've never heard about this bit of business history, there's a good reason: it never happened. Instead, A.T. & T. had to abide by a "common carriage" rule: it provided the same quality of service to all, and could not favor one customer over another. But, while "tiered access" never influenced the spread of the telephone network, it is becoming a major issue in the evolution of the Internet.

Until recently, companies that provided Internet access followed a de-facto commoncarriage rule, usually called "network neutrality," which meant that all Web sites got equal treatment. Network neutrality was considered so fundamental to the success of the Net that Michael Powell, when he was chairman of the F.C.C., described it as one of the basic rules of "Internet freedom." In the past few months, though, companies like A.T. & T. and BellSouth have been trying to scuttle it. In the future, Web sites that pay extra to providers could receive what BellSouth recently called "special treatment," and those that don't could end up in the slow lane. One day, BellSouth customers may find that, say, NBC.com loads a lot faster than YouTube.com, and that the sites BellSouth favors just seem to run more smoothly. Tiered access will turn the providers into Internet gatekeepers."


This isn't a republican/democratic thing, it's about keeping the internet a free marketplace and somewhere that anybody within the law, can have the freedom to publish a website.
 
J

JRB

Guest
Is my tin foil hat going to short my computer out while I read all of this???
 
J

JRB

Guest
btw - the nerds of the world will unite and cripple anyone's efforts to do this.

If it does happen, I hope they don't ban the word poop on the Internet.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
I can see network geeks the world over making ATT et als life miserable if they try this. My guess...many large ISP services and sites will fail to resolve when they try to pull this. It amounts to gangsterism and the protection rackets of the 50s.

The only twist is that the large ISPs and fiber owners spend HUGE money to light up dark fiber and lay new fiber. They have a right to charge for traffic over their pipes, just like the states charge on toll roads.
 

Radarr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
1,132
12
Montana
Transcend said:
The only twist is that the large ISPs and fiber owners spend HUGE money to light up dark fiber and lay new fiber. They have a right to charge for traffic over their pipes, just like the states charge on toll roads.
Even though they spend huge money, they make probably 2 or 3 times HUGE money in return.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
They probably shouldn't have included this if they were trying to get my support :p:

If Congress abandons Network Neutrality, who will be affected?

* Advocacy groups like MoveOn.org—Political organizing could be slowed by a handful of dominant Internet providers who ask advocacy groups to pay "protection money" for their websites and online features to work correctly.


:oink:
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
5,407
0
New England
What this all amounts to, is the money you pay for internet acces, and the money websites pay for interent access is no longer enough.

Since they are already charging a premium at both ends of the pipe, the only way to make more is to start charging for access through the middle of it.
 

Secret Squirrel

There is no Justice!
Dec 21, 2004
8,150
1
Up sh*t creek, without a paddle
Tenchiro said:
What this all amounts to, is the money you pay for internet acces, and the money websites pay for interent access is no longer enough.

Since they are already charging a premium at both ends of the pipe, the only way to make more is to start charging for access through the middle of it.
Kinda like the early days of porn...

"Hmmmm...maybe I can make more money if it goes here...or here.....or even...here..."
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Secret Squirrel said:
Just like the 10 billion profit Exxon had in one quarter...:rolleyes: I see the point, but hardly agree with it...or with slower service because someone doesn't pay "enough"...
Why? UPS does it, USPS does it, the airlines do it.

You want service, you pay for it. Simple as that.

If you bought a fleet of taxis, would you let everyone ride for free? It's the EXACT same thing. Your data is travelling for free on their pipes.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Transcend said:
Why? UPS does it, USPS does it, the airlines do it.

You want service, you pay for it. Simple as that.

If you bought a fleet of taxis, would you let everyone ride for free? It's the EXACT same thing. Your data is travelling for free on their pipes.
Right, communications lines are not free, there is a monthly access fee.

You can't get dial-up, T1, T3, OC, cable modem, DSL, lines without paying for them, but they don't deserve any more money on top of those communication systems we already pay money for to access the Internet. I shouldn't have to pay extra to make sure their network functions how it was already designed to.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
You aren't paying backbone providers for your ISP fees are you? You of all people should know this. You pay a 3rd party who pays bandwidth fees. Somewhere down the line, data crosses pipes that are not paid for. Simple as that, they want their piece of the pie.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Transcend said:
You aren't paying backbone providers for your ISP fees are you? You of all people should know this. You pay a 3rd party who pays bandwidth fees. Somewhere down the line, data crosses pipes that are not paid for. Simple as that, they want their piece of the pie.
The ISP is paying for their bandwidth, so I still don't see your point?

I pay for and want access to the Internet, not a overly privatized/regulated one. Being public and open is what makes it so poweful and great of a resource for everyone.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
syadasti said:
The ISP is paying for their bandwidth, so I still don't see your point?

I pay for and want access to the Internet, not a overly privatized/regulated one.
You pay company a, who pays company B etc. Data doesn't constrain itself to those pipes. It takes the fastest route. It travels over 3rd party pipes that never get paid for.

It is already privatized, the Gov't didn't lay any fiber last I checked. If they want to get their point across, they will just start to block out traffic entirely if it originates off of their network.
 

Echo

crooked smile
Jul 10, 2002
11,819
15
Slacking at work
Transcend said:
You pay company a, who pays company B etc. Data doesn't constrain itself to those pipes. It takes the fastest route. It travels over 3rd party pipes that never get paid for.

It is already privatized, the Gov't didn't lay any fiber last I checked. If they want to get their point across, they will just start to block out traffic entirely if it originates off of their network.
The overall topology and operating design of the Internet hasn't significantly changed in about 20 years. Only the size has changed. These companies got into it knowing what the price structure was, how revenue was distributed, etc. Now they're bitching?

That's like buying a house next to a drag racing venue then complaining about the noise 10 years later.
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
This presents an interesting dilemna. If this does indeed get pushed through, what happens if some ISPs don't do this?

A coalition of cities here are actually laying fiber as part of UTOPIA, however, a pair of large telecom companies (Qwest and Comcrap, respectively) have managed to lobby our corrupt and imbecilic state legislature into nearly gutting the move. Really sucks, but I'm not shocked. Everyone's jerking everyone else off at the top levels 'round these parts.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Transcend said:
You pay company a, who pays company B etc. Data doesn't constrain itself to those pipes. It takes the fastest route. It travels over 3rd party pipes that never get paid for.

It is already privatized, the Gov't didn't lay any fiber last I checked. If they want to get their point across, they will just start to block out traffic entirely if it originates off of their network.
So thats how its designed to work and always worked. Nothing has changed and bandwidth fees are still being paid. The Internet is designed as a open non-centralized network. If you over privatize/limit/regulate it, you defeat its purpose and its core value.

If I can't email or reach random websites anymore, I might as well go back to using crappy BBS. The idea of the Internet is that its NOT the Intranet...
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
5,407
0
New England
Transcend said:
You pay company a, who pays company B etc. Data doesn't constrain itself to those pipes. It takes the fastest route. It travels over 3rd party pipes that never get paid for.
But those companies also have paying subscribers whose data also travels across other networks who they didn't pay for. It is a two way street.

The only reason they want to change it now is because they are getting greedy.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Tenchiro said:
The only reason they want to change it now is because they are getting greedy.
Exactly and the perfect administration is in power to slip it through. Greed is the only reason for this and the erosion of consumer fair use in recent years.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Echo said:
The overall topology and operating design of the Internet hasn't significantly changed in about 20 years. Only the size has changed. These companies got into it knowing what the price structure was, how revenue was distributed, etc. Now they're bitching?

That's like buying a house next to a drag racing venue then complaining about the noise 10 years later.
Granted, only I liken it to more like building a house next to a little league ballpark that has since become a major league stadium.

Fact is, broadband, peer to peer, streaming video, SPAM etc have drastically changed the nature and amount of data that is travelling across the fiber.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Tenchiro said:
But those companies also have paying subscribers whose data also travels across other networks who they didn't pay for. It is a two way street.

The only reason they want to change it now is because they are getting greedy.
Of course, but it looks like those peering agreements are coming to an end. The funny part is, in the end company a will pay company b 10 million and vice versa. The only people who get screwed are the end users at both extremeties (the sites/users).

But business is business.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
blue said:
Solution:

Governments lay and maintain fiber optic networks, like roads.
They can't even maintain roads properly and all that needs is unskilled labourers. I don't think I'd trust them with mission critical fiber hardware. Also, the US gov't is basically broke and living off credit, I don't think that'd be such a wise move right now.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Transcend said:
Fact is, broadband, peer to peer, streaming video, SPAM etc have drastically changed the nature and amount of data that is travelling across the fiber.
Thats still nothing new. When you get more data, you buy more bandwidth. Companies buy more bandwidth when they reach capacity. They are getting their money in the same way as they always have.

Just like any other business, when you get more customers, you can afford to expand your business. Larger customer base is a good thing - economies of scale and all...
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
Transcend said:
Also, those networks (utopia etc) still have to lease bandwidth from the fiber giants, so it doesn't matter what they do really. No gov't is going to lay transatlantic cables etc.
I don't exactly know how fiber networks are setup, but AFAIK UTOPIA is laying their own, and leasing it to providers.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
blue said:
Solution:

Governments lay and maintain fiber optic networks, like roads.
Bad idea. Govt road work is notoriously crap. Imaing govt. workers doing service on something actually technical. Ick!
 

Secret Squirrel

There is no Justice!
Dec 21, 2004
8,150
1
Up sh*t creek, without a paddle
Transcend said:
Why? UPS does it, USPS does it, the airlines do it.

You want service, you pay for it. Simple as that.

If you bought a fleet of taxis, would you let everyone ride for free? It's the EXACT same thing. Your data is travelling for free on their pipes.
Right....if I want something I pay for it. Unfortunately, there are greedy bastards out there who think that, just because they're the only game in town (or who have price fixed something....)they can get away with it. And the present gov't doesn't give a rat's ass about monopolistic practices or illegalities because it's too busy butt-f*cking itself...

There have to be regulations put in place for this kind of thing. It seems, at least to me....for whatever that's worth..., that corporations are trying to erase the regulations in this case. Or at the very least insert a loophole where if they don't think someone is paying enough, they can simply turn off the faucet.

You can say it's their right till you're blue in the face, but that opens pandora's box. Now a company who's CEO is black can't get access (read: Has to pay 4 million a year when everyone else has to pay 100 bucks...) to AT&T's network cause AT&T's top exec is an Aryan Nation follower....etc, etc., etc.....:dead:
 

bjanga

Turbo Monkey
Dec 25, 2004
1,356
0
San Diego
Transcend said:
You pay company A, who pays company B etc. Data doesn't constrain itself to those pipes. It takes the fastest route. It travels over 3rd party pipes that never get paid for.
Maybe I misunderstand, but should company A be paying those 3rd party companies?
 

Bicyclist

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2004
10,152
2
SB
So Trancend, would you rather have rates for internet skyrocket and have funky internet "wars" so some websites will be slow, or would you rather not?
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Bicyclist said:
So Trancend, would you rather have rates for internet skyrocket and have funky internet "wars" so some websites will be slow, or would you rather not?
Dude, dont buy into this. It would be RETARDED for companies to price internet access out of reach of the average person.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Bicyclist said:
So Trancend, would you rather have rates for internet skyrocket and have funky internet "wars" so some websites will be slow, or would you rather not?
It won't happen. As soon as the prices go up they will lose subscribers in droves. They will price certain features higher: peer to peer, voip, streaming audio and tv.

If you want those things you will have to pay a premium. With these feature based price increases, they will be able to pay the people who own the fiber. Despite what people seem to think, they have every right to charge people to use their assets. Capitalism is the rule of the day.

When peering agreements were written up, VOIP, broadband and the like weren't even on anyone's minds. The landscape has changed tremendously.

I pay about twice what most people do (at least) for my service. I have exceptionally fast service as I sit online working all day everyday, and would shoot myself otherwise. I have no problem paying for "extras". The faster/slower/blocked website nonsense will never happen, but price increases to pay on down the line will.