[citybikesmike]

Just a quick heads up: if you ride in Patapsco and like the dirt jumps off off Landing Rd, they are soon to be flattened. Think heavy machinery and no jumps.

I met with the trail crew out there and they have been given their orders. I tried to talk them out of it as the jumps are pretty well made, but they aren't having it. If I could find out who helped build a lot of that, it would go a long way towards opening up a different area for jumps and dimensional lumber constructed stuff. Shoot me an email if you have the stones...

Get your runs in before it's all gone. Trail work with MORE April 9th at Avalon pavillions, 9:30am. See you there. Big trail re-route.

mike
PVSP guy

 

[Brunettes]

Never knew there were any there..

 

[bballboy388]

Ive herd people call the louis and clark its pretty fun. Even if the jumps get torn down im sure people will build more/ rebuild them. Why is More taking them down?

 

[rpk1988]

What? They are getting rid of that trail. But its sooo much fun. There is talk of actually building contructed lumbered things in Patapsco? Really? When?

 

[citybikesmike]

THE PARK is taking them down, not MORE. Let's be clear here. MORE is trying to keep them and add to them, not remove them. The park is doing this unilaterally and AGAINST input from MORE.

mike

 

[peter6061]

So are they being removed on the 9th or are the tractors there now? That trail is a great way to get into the park from landing road. Love the jumps.

 

[JiveFoolSucka]

That sucks, was it really hurting anything? I do not believe any one has been hurt on them. Why go through all the time and money to get equipment back there just to destoy something that was built with natural materials from the area. I can understand closing it and taking it down by hand. Spending scarce funds on equipment to destroy them seems a little excessive. I remember a time when a mountain biker was shunned at most every park he showed up at, how illegal trails were the only way people could get to ride in certain areas. Now bikers have a large level of acceptance at some of those same parks. I do not want to see the areas put in jeopardy but at the same time those trail workers should have an open mind about the obstacles being made. There are many different facets to biking and some guys like the jumps and drops and built things. I would hope that many of us would seek the proper channels to have our voices heard. So an informed decision on the creation of these stunts and the safety of everyone involved can be made. I do not advocate we turn our trails into a freeride park. But we must acknowledge the presence of all riders and make an attempt to represent those different facets on the trails.
Whenever it rains in this area riders heads drop and a dark cloud of sadness overcomes them. In the Pacific Northwest they recieve more annual rainfall than us but that does not stop them from riding.
With the right trailbuilding and proper water run off we could extend the amount of days we get to ride each year. By creating better solutions to crossing those boggy marshes we can decrease the impact we bikers have in those swampy sections. Growing up in the Northwest I rode beautiful trails after a few days rain. In the persistent muddy sections ladder bridges approximately 5 to 6 inches off the ground were used to navigate thru them. Sure there were slick sections but the overall idea was that the trail was built to not only coexist with the rider but also the weather. The mere sight of a ladder bridge on most of our trails here gets the blood pumping, in most of our riders images of people hucking them selves to oblivion come flooding into the mind. Trails to coexist with the rider and the weather, thats all I ask

 

[urbaindk]

Anybody have any idea when (date / time) said dozing will occur? It might be nice to stage a little protest and show publically that we disapprove. Who can we contact to express our dissaproval?

I didn't even know about these jumps and I'm pissed.

 

[rpk1988]

JDschall, all you had to do is ask and I would have shown. Haha.

 

[urbaindk]

JDschall, all you had to do is ask and I would have shown. Haha.

I didn't even know to ask! Dang it.

 

[urbaindk]

I can't find a email address to which I can send a bitchy email but here is the phone number and address:

Patapsco Valley State Park
8020 Baltimore National Pike
Ellicott City, MD 21043
(410)461-5005

I doubt it will do any good to call but maybe if people read jivefoolsucka's email carefully and make the following points:

1. Nobody has been hurt
2. Waste of resources to remove.

 

[citybikesmike]

You guys should take a deep breath here.

We aren't tearing them down. It's not happening at the trailwork day. MORE doesn't help parks tear this stuff down, in general.

And don't start bitching at the park. It was built on park land without permission. People HAVE gotten hurt (I know of one dude with a broken back).

This isn't about the jumps, it's about doing things the proper way.

If you have the stones to do it, show up at the trail work day and pitch in instead of bitchin'. THAT'S how things change.

That said, I'm working with the park to try and provide an area for this type of riding, which I really enjoy too. Offer to help, don't complain.

mike
suck it up

 

[urbaindk]

Everybody says "show up to a trail work day and pitch in" That's good and all, but what motivation do we have to pitch in when the vast majority of trails are going to be more of same? I (and I'm sure others) want to see either one of two things happen:

1) a posting saying that you are trying to open up a specific location for to build advanced technical features and need help gauging interest, finding out likely numbers of riders, rallying the troops, etc. (From you post above I see you have this covered at least to some extent and I think that's great!)

2) a posting saying "we are going to be building advanced trail features. jumps, etc at such and such a location and need your help."

What I don't see is a bunch of freeriders / DH bikers come out to build trails that they won't be using the majority of the time. There is just no motivation to get involved at all unless that carrot is hanging out in front of us.

 

[citybikesmike]

I gotta tell ya, nobody is going to hand you the keys to the car before you learn to drive. You don't get what you want by telling us the conditions under which you will show up. You gotta get your hands dirty first.

I've put in almost 7 years of maintenance out there, just trying to make it more rideable after a rain, forget concentrating on stunts. I have been responsible (along with MANY volunteers and the trail crew) for re-routing a lot of trails, building ttfs, adding more twisty stuff and generally making Patapsco better. You'll forgive me if I don't kill myself to get you to show up so that I can make sure YOU are satisfied. It just doesn't work that way.

So show up and get involved. I've got a family and a full-time job and I spend a few hundred hours a year on trail maintenance and meetings for Patapsco.

Man up and show up.

mike

 

[HotButterToppin]

I find this "tough love" approach rather laughable.

It should be obvious to just about anyone with half a sense of logic, that you can't tout an organization, a movement, as being democracy, grassroots, mobilizing the masses and having a voice, as something people should join when the call to join basically sounds like "you will be assimilated."

Like it or not when someone builds a jump line, stunts, or something similar, MORE takes the heat for it when things go down, and the builders will just find a new spot or even resurrect the old. You can bloviate to your heart's content but the fact is that you're not going to convince enough of the likely builders by trying to shame, guilt, intimidate, or impress them with your stature and power by propping yourself up as a [false] prophet who will not be questioned lest thee be cast out [to ride his/her bike on trails they'll build anyway]. This is what I meant when I said in the other MORE thread that they may need us more than we need them.

I don't think one organization will work. In order to function it would need several vertical layers ("departments" with VP's as it were) where each group is represented and an aggregate all-sweeping strategy can be passed up to a Grand Poobah. Bureaucracy fighting bureaucracy, anyone? No thanks, I'll pass.

And you're kidding yourself if you think we cyclists are all on the same team, or that we can be convinced to "be team players" and fight for some other discipline's cause. Some sort of small, truly grassroots, group of likeminded riders thinking about stunts, jumps, and such, sounds like a plan. Something where respected people with a real grasp of the nuances of the niche can help get a point across. Small organizations can move faster, just like smaller companies. And if results are really what people want to see that'll be the way to do it.




There are plenty of others who share versions of my opinions who remain mute. And while I'm utterly certain I will be responded to in a harsh and dismissive way, most people wouldn't be so kind as to throw you a bone and try to point out where we/they are coming from. And I'm not about PC glad-handing and acting like we're all winners. I think your position is flawed and wrong in many ways, and I'm honest about that.

Frankly I don't need the hassle, I could be out digging in some undisclosed location (next to Cheney's bunker), but I actually DO care otherwise I wouldn't write this... Plus I'm waiting on a new bike on order.

 

[SK6]

I fully agree, however, stereotyping use to be called judging a book by its cover...which it today's society is the norm.

So, if you take a bike, and ride it on something other than the boardwalk or a leisurely ride in the neighborhood, your a rebel...

The comment was made about cross discipline...whoever made that comment was right on the money, why would the tightey-whitey weight weenies give a crap about DH/FR riding? regardless of immature kid or a professional with a family, church and children...

I have a huge problem with people my age making these judgement calls because one-a-day is about as excited as they get.

I meet these tightey whitey weight weenies in our region, and they take one look at my bike and right away I'm judged.....

its a jealousy thing... these same people who want to tear this stiff down are the same ones who bitch that "kids today...all they do is drugs....They need something to do...an when its found.....

I say to them all piss off...including some, notice I said some, of these MORE folks...who are an elitist bunch of pretentious dillholes....

(note I said some... )

 

[HotButterToppin]

I concur.

And in the spirit of SK6's post I would just like to make it clear that though I said I think a lot of things are wrong notice I didn't say all. And the same goes for the people.

I'm sure there's very valuable things to be learned from people like MORE. And yes they're not all bad. But at some point the anecdotal cases where someone says "but what about So-and-so, he's good!" are far outweighed by the proponderance of dillholes and frankly the record of what they've accomplished that we care about.

I don't see IMBA's record of "approved freeride trails" as a great accomplishment when more than 3/4 of them are run by companies with lots of cash to throw at it.




Dillhole, a term I thought for sure my family had invented. I guess I should have copyrighted it. Though nimrod is my insult for 2006 that I'm trying to bring back into popular use.

 

[citybikesmike]

Must be nice to sit and snipe from the sidelines.

I've been where you are. I did the illegal trail thing and I was tired of seeing my 'work' destroyed. I'm in it. I give my time and I make a difference. I'm not elitist, I have heavy bikes, I've raced, broken stuff doing drops, I have a singlespeed, I ride a road bike AND I stand up and pitch in for trail work. You still haven't come up with a reason why you can't pitch in. Must be the bad back, right?

You guys don't know me, you don't know MORE and you don't know about dealing with park staff. I'm just a guy trying to make a difference and you are just not.

So enjoy insulting things that some people stand for and THEY (not me, not MORE) will keep knocking that sh*t down. I'm on the right side of this. I want drops, dimensionally-constructed legal stuff and dirt jumps. I've even worked with a local county to get it approved and we start construction this Summer.

As I said before, man up and show up. You can insult me at the trail. You can insult me on the bike, if you can keep up...

mike

 

[bballboy388]

So i should come out april 8th and ill be able to help with trail work?
Also where would i meet up with everyone?
Please everyone that can come if more people that want stunts come then its more likely that stunts will be built.

 

[HotButterToppin]

Man up? What? Are we having a discussion or are you going to preach and then resort to recurring pseudo manly-speak and then chest-butt the nearest likeminded MORE member?

You choose not to refute or even address any comment I or SK6 (or anyone for that matter) has made in opposition to your own stance. As is often the case you repeat the party-line mantra; "people hurt... they'll tear down your stuff... gloom... doom... not a right it's a privilege... you need us to have a good time on a bike... drink the Cool-aid."

And these tangents about your personal qualifications...who cares? You do a great job of sounding like an authority on the subject...of yourself. Is this about you or about the issue? It seems as though you'd much rather talk about you than even address one single point that's been articulated, albeit none of which came in the form of a bulleted or numbered list and as a result requiring some level of reading comprehension.

I applaud you for your community service, and anyone else who does the same. But that service, just like your age, your race, or any other personal factor, doesn't negate any/all articulated points in opposition to your own.

A discussion forum is about discourse. If you want to stand on a pulpit and not be called to task on what you say, the appropriate venue would be a blog....which I see you are familiar with.




My list of reasons, material, and opinions is far too long to waste on someone (or a group of someones) who can't be bothered to address a single one of them. I'm more than happy to engage in a back/forth because the issue can only benefit from it, but it requires an able and willing participant. So when you can stop rambling about how fast you are and how big your balls are, maybe you can go back and reread some stuff and actually say something thoughtful without appealing to status as a self-anointed authority.

 

[citybikesmike]

Bballboy, the meeting place is in the main entrance of the park off of Rte 1. The entrance is just south of I195. Once in the park, make a left at the stop sign and you will see us all at the pavillions on the right.

Hotbutter, I'm not into the refutation game. You have your own opinions and I don't agree. Sorry. I don't know what MORE has ever done to you, but I'm not MORE, I'm a bike rider. Volunteering for MORE allows me to be a part of decisions made in the park. It's nice to walk down the trail with staff and say 'yeah, let's change that' or 'no, let's leave that.' I try to make decisions for ALL trail users (horses, hikers, new riders and experienced riders). If you show up, I'll show you the trails that I've developed and THEN you can start insulting them, but I don't think you will.

Imagine, with over 3600! posts between the two of you, how much you could have contributed to the trails instead of sitting home, punching keys.

Nobody will ask you to thump chests or drink the proverbial Kool-Aid, but we will ask you to work and have some sort of experience with actual trail building before you can just start running your mouth about dirt jump this and freeride that. You might actually LEARN something. Holy Sh*t! You might not know everything! Whoa, scary thought, eh?

So, again, man up and show up. If you don't, well, I'll keep my thoughts to myself.

mike
don't be scared

 

[HotButterToppin]

I simply take issue with the organization's structure, goals, and accomplishments in the context of this whole freeride business. No one is insulting your work. No one is criticizing the trails.

Reading is fundamental.

 

[Stiff]

Hotbutter,

If you take issue with MORE's structure, goals, and accomplishments, then why not join, work, and change it? It's not an elitist group of tidywhitey XC pinheads, and even if it were, get all your firends together and transform it into an advocate for baggyass huckerific fatboys. The point is that MORE has built a solid relationship with land managers, and therefore MORE privdes a very easy entry point for FR/DH riders to be part of that relationship. MORE is very open to working with gravity riders in parallel organizations, in coordination as individuals, or within MORE. Maybe they haven't gotten that word out as strongly as they could, because there are so few gravity riders round at all in this area, but in any case, organizing is key. And let's not lose sight of the the main threat to all recreational land: development. Last, please lose the caustic tone (ie, "reading is fundamental"), hurts me ears.

p.s. I don't do XC.

 

[willpowa]

Listen to Stiff.
Any pirate trailbuilder worth their salt pretty much expects that their work won't last...like grafitti. You notice how graf writers paint over stuff that's been buffed(painted over)? I'd like to see more people doing trailwork and maintenance as an expression of creativity and stewardship. Unlikely! I've definintely put in my hours on trail maintenance, both organized and independent, though only twice with MORE. I love to dig and build and groom trail almost as much as I love riding it. Why does everyone take everything so personally when trails come up? Why is everyone always indignant at how retarded everyone else is?

 

[HotButterToppin]

My tone is because I don't appreciate CitybikesMike misrepresenting my comments as being insults and snipes. I find it offensive, and cheap. So excuse me if I show a bit of displeasure.



That said, I fully agree that the shared threat to the trails is development. I wish more people would point out that the real threat to trails in a single year, comes from someone like Ryland Homes tearing out all the trees and putting in a McMansion housing development. Suburban sprawl.

I agree that MORE has established relationships with land managers and that it's a definite asset. I'm just leery of the "change from the inside" approach since, in my mind, it would be easier to organize riders into a separate fr/dj/dh group whose combined clout and focused message would probably be taken more seriously by MORE. Operate automously.

Who knows, maybe that group could later be assimilated (har har) into MORE at some point when it's clear that the subgroup is taken seriously. I'm not advocating starting from scratch with land managers. I just don't think that logistically the fr/dh/dj community is willing to join MORE in enough mass to matter inside that particular organization.

Do/can you understand where I'm coming from?




I don't want to flog a dead horse so I'll just leave it at that. I'm sure I've bored many to death already.

 

[whale]

p.s. I don't do XC.

whatever! you love it as much as you love hotsex with dark haired western challenged women.

regardless, i think the FR/DH community needs to front up and organize themselves into a legitimate group to speak for themselves in some form of fashion... pirate builders unite! arrrgghhhh!

 

[citybikesmike]

So, let's see who can show up and help out. I got into trail maintenance because we couldn't ride at Patapsco after any appreciable rain and now we just have bad sections instead of a closed park. That's goal #1. Goal #2 is to make fun, technical, flowing trail that doesn't fly in the face of Goal #1.

I use trailbuilding as a means of personal expression. I point out sections of trail that I am responsible for when I am out there with pride. I'm always looking to do it better next time.

So, in conclusion, show up and let's get more people than just me at the trailwork days asking for drops, jumps, teeters, etc. It's hard to be the only one riding 6" bikes out there. Most people are riding 29'er rigid singlespeeds or steel hardtails with vbrakes. A lot of people are seeing the bigger-travel light, but it ain't the majority yet.

Is that coming through loud and clear enough?

mike
get involved

 

[HotButterToppin]

Whale, you can probably answer this since....


The work being done to make 495 legitimate, is it being done through MORE? It's my understanding that it isn't. Actually I'm sure Corey could answer that too since it seems he's at the eye of that huricane, so to speak.

 

[corey_rideDC]

on the contrary, without scott scudamore (MORE) & rich edwards (IMBA), 495 would have been plowed by the county a year ago.

i think getting 495 legitimized will hopefully go a long way towards changing the way people think about MORE around here. they've been great to work with so far.

 

[riderx]

it would be easier to organize riders into a separate fr/dj/dh group whose combined clout and focused message would probably be taken more seriously by MORE. Operate automously.

When you get that done and get something accomplished, post it up here. I've been hearing talk of this for years on these boards but I haven't seen any results. What I continue to see is some people claim MORE hasn't done anything for them. Read Stiff's post, he's saying the same thing I've been posting here for years. MORE will create a whole freeride "division" if someone steps up lead it, organize it, etc.

 

[Dartman]

Let me try to add a little perspective...

If you only ride dirtjumps and freeride are you going to want to help build and maintain crosscountry trails?

MORE is currently mostly comprised of XC riders who are stretched to the limits working on their own trails. They aren't going to spend time working on stuff they don't ride themselves.

That said I'm fairly sure that they are interested in supporting the dirtjump and freeride effort if those that ride that stuff are willing to join up and take lead to make it happen.

As Riderx and Corey have posted there is room in MORE for freeriding. You just have to want to do the work.

Mike

 

[SK6]

Let me try to add a little perspective...

If you only ride dirtjumps and freeride are you going to want to help build and maintain crosscountry trails?

MORE is currently mostly comprised of XC riders who are stretched to the limits working on their own trails. They aren't going to spend time working on stuff they don't ride themselves.

That said I'm fairly sure that they are interested in supporting the dirtjump and freeride effort if those that ride that stuff are willing to join up and take lead to make it happen.

As Riderx and Corey have posted there is room in MORE for freeriding. You just have to want to do the work.

Mike

A valid point.

 

[citybikesmike]

Good stuff here. Basically, we are telling you all that if you want this stuff MORE will help you do it. Whatever it is. You don't have to help with xc trails (which I don't understand, but whatever). I know that the xc people will help with any dj/fr stuff for sure.

I'm still concerned about the labeling crap. We all need to think of ourselves as mountainbikers (or bike riders) and stop drving wedges between each other. If we actually get more powerful politically around here, there will plenty of people to do that for us.

Again, I am a member of MORE. I like drops, djs and fr stuff so MORE is for that. See how it works? MORE has money, people, clout, volunteer labor, expertise, legitimacy... It is up to the riders to USE that to get done what WE (you) want. It's that simple.

If you aren't involved, you won't get what you want. That's the truth. If you are involved, you will get people to HELP you get what you want, it's that easy. I have had countless conversations with MORE board members (volunteers, remember), and they are interested in reaching out to the fr, dj, dh riders. Everyone admires the cajones it takes to do that and we'd all like to hang out, ride, watch and drink beer.

Bottom line: we are the same, we can learn from each other, we are better off together than apart. Simple, right?

So show up to the trailwork day, we'll get people started on the re-route, and we can talk about the future. Deal?

mike
i'll be the one with the big-@ss chainsaw...

 

[HotButterToppin]

Corey, are you a MORE member? And the rest of the guys helping get 495 legit, what about them?

 

[corey_rideDC]

i am not a member of either MORE or IMBA. adam ward, who has been spearheading this process is.

 

[urbaindk]

First of all let me say I love these threads! I'm always happy when I can help contribute to a cat fight. (grrrowl)

Second, I spent Saturday working at Rosaryville State Park with a MORE trail crew. We did cleared trail corridor for two reroutes which will get rid of sections of fall line trail. After that was finished we started clearing the corridor for a new internal loop which will include a freeride trail section when completed in the next year or two. So, I guess you can say I "manned up" even though that's pretty sexist, as there were at least 2 women in attendance at the work day.

The trail liaison at Rosaryville is very enthusiastic about trying new things and has been really proactive. He has a very positive attitude. He is very honest about the situation. He makes it clear what the Park's priorities are. 1. Reroute fall line trails, 2. Maintain trails 3. Construct new trails. 4. Build features.

He doesn't do freeride stuff now, he's only been riding for two years but you can see from talking to him that he is so excited about trying it. He also has a young teenage son who rides so I think that helps.

Anyway his enthusiasm about his trails are what prompted me to get involved. He admittedly doesn't know that much about what kind of features to build, but hopefully with some outside input, we'll get to build some fun stuff. He is definitely one of the most positive people I have met with in the MORE organization.


Anyway, I'm not sure where all this rambling is leading... I guess what I'm trying to say is everybody should try to have a good positive attitude. I don't think challenging anyone's manhood is a good way to accomplish anything, (especially if we're not even all men). And getting involved in some way or another can't hurt.

 

[citybikesmike]

Fan-freaking-tastic. Now you see how simple it all really is. Showing up is way more than half the battle. I hope to see you at the Patapsco trailwork day as well. With a park that sees as many users as Patapsco does, it's a totally different place to work (literally and figuratively) with different issues.

MORE will help you do whatever it is you want to do. It's really that easy. Nobody judges anybody... we all just ride.

mike
(wo)man up

 

[Stiff]

Do/can you understand where I'm coming from?

I think that's reasonable. Change always comes from a combination of external pressure and internal response. US expansion of civil rights in the 1960s, for example, required people on the street and sympathetic bureaucrats like myself on the inside. So now I can legally marry a Chinese woman.

 

[Dartman]

I think that's reasonable. Change always comes from a combination of external pressure and internal response. US expansion of civil rights in the 1960s, for example, required people on the street and sympathetic bureaucrats like myself on the inside. So now I can legally marry a Chinese woman.

Presactly!