make sure the tapered side of the oil lock ring is facing the lowers and not up. has a tapered side that faces down for the bottom out to enter smoothly without hanging an edge.
Avalanche boxxer upgrade kit out! Will fit majority of forks!
- Thread starter bullcrew
- Start date
*SEE MY POST ON PAGE 53 ABOUT THE CAUSE OF THIS. IT WAS STRICTLY DUE TO MY IMPROPER INSTALLATION AND NOT ANYTHING CAUSED BY THE CARTRIDGE ITSELF. JUST FYI, THIS IS WHAT CAN HAPPEN IF YOU INSTALL PARTS WRONG*
I just got done tearing down the boxxer and inspecting everything. Yes, the oil lock ring was in upside down, but from what I saw, it's the crooked lowers that are causing the issue. I turned the ring around and did a full compression test, and yes, metal on metal sounds came out of the fork. I took a video with my iphone as well as took photos of the "damage". I'm not sure what the take of the people at Avalanche is on this, if it's fine to run like this, i'll keep it up, if not the fork will be sold as well as the cart. I am once again, incredibly disappointed in Sram and their Rockshoxx products.
Here are photos, my guess is the damage (being only one side) is strictly due to the crooked lowers. Keep in mind, this is only after one day of riding today ( about 8 runs) and then some sessioning for about 3 hours yesterday.
As of today after finding this, the fork is staying off my bike until I can get some answers.
Video.... the higher-pitched metal on metal is the "bottom-out" at full compression. The "pop" is my toolbox flexing.
http://s202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/DODpiG/?action=view¤t=BoxxerGrind.mp4
I just got done tearing down the boxxer and inspecting everything. Yes, the oil lock ring was in upside down, but from what I saw, it's the crooked lowers that are causing the issue. I turned the ring around and did a full compression test, and yes, metal on metal sounds came out of the fork. I took a video with my iphone as well as took photos of the "damage". I'm not sure what the take of the people at Avalanche is on this, if it's fine to run like this, i'll keep it up, if not the fork will be sold as well as the cart. I am once again, incredibly disappointed in Sram and their Rockshoxx products.
Here are photos, my guess is the damage (being only one side) is strictly due to the crooked lowers. Keep in mind, this is only after one day of riding today ( about 8 runs) and then some sessioning for about 3 hours yesterday.
As of today after finding this, the fork is staying off my bike until I can get some answers.
Video.... the higher-pitched metal on metal is the "bottom-out" at full compression. The "pop" is my toolbox flexing.
http://s202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/DODpiG/?action=view¤t=BoxxerGrind.mp4
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The high pitch metal to metal sound is the oil lock ring touching the cone, and i guess that is inevitable. The two pieces are almost the same diameter and with RS´s horrible casting there is no way it will engage without barely touching.
Avalanche told us that it´s ok for the cartridge to be 1 or 2 mm off center at the topcap. One of my friends bought a set of new lowers and he is now within that 1 or 2 mm. His forks have that high pitched sound when the oil lock ring is engaging the cone too.
I have had my Avalanche cartridge for months but never ridden it. My plan was to use it with a brand new Boxxer race. Having the lowers machined has been mentioned as a fix, but that´s very complicated. We talked to a machine shop but gave up on this idea as the tool must be specially made only for this job. That´s when I had the idea of sanding the surface flat with a piece of sandpaper attached to the stanchion. I used the topcap on the spring side for this. The topcap on Boxxer Race is just a nut with a flat surface. To match the diameter of the ABS cone I glued a coin to the topcap and a piece of sandpaper to the coin. That way I could grind the inside of the lowers by sliding the stanchion into the lowers and twist and turn manually. The idea was that the stanchion is guided by the bushings guaranteeing a flat surface as result. The magnesium is quite soft and the job was done in an hour. But the cartridge is still out of alignment! I have no idea why! Could be that the hole in the lowers is out of center too!
4 out of 5 Boxxer lowers that I have seen have been crooked, so I guess you´ll never know what you´ll get if you buy new lowers. Oh, and we tried a warranty claim too, but we just got the lowers in return. SRAM Europe said their own internals works just fint with the crooked lowers...
Edit: @Idahoo: watching your pics and your video again, it seems like the oil lock ring is actually touching the cartridge body too.
Avalanche told us that it´s ok for the cartridge to be 1 or 2 mm off center at the topcap. One of my friends bought a set of new lowers and he is now within that 1 or 2 mm. His forks have that high pitched sound when the oil lock ring is engaging the cone too.
I have had my Avalanche cartridge for months but never ridden it. My plan was to use it with a brand new Boxxer race. Having the lowers machined has been mentioned as a fix, but that´s very complicated. We talked to a machine shop but gave up on this idea as the tool must be specially made only for this job. That´s when I had the idea of sanding the surface flat with a piece of sandpaper attached to the stanchion. I used the topcap on the spring side for this. The topcap on Boxxer Race is just a nut with a flat surface. To match the diameter of the ABS cone I glued a coin to the topcap and a piece of sandpaper to the coin. That way I could grind the inside of the lowers by sliding the stanchion into the lowers and twist and turn manually. The idea was that the stanchion is guided by the bushings guaranteeing a flat surface as result. The magnesium is quite soft and the job was done in an hour. But the cartridge is still out of alignment! I have no idea why! Could be that the hole in the lowers is out of center too!
4 out of 5 Boxxer lowers that I have seen have been crooked, so I guess you´ll never know what you´ll get if you buy new lowers. Oh, and we tried a warranty claim too, but we just got the lowers in return. SRAM Europe said their own internals works just fint with the crooked lowers...
Edit: @Idahoo: watching your pics and your video again, it seems like the oil lock ring is actually touching the cartridge body too.
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Idahoo, I'm pretty sure mine are going to do exactly the same thing, when first running my forks they would lock up slightly at full extension but worked fine until bottom out, where the cone is hitting on mine too but not as badly as yours.
Also did you leave the bottom out bumper on the spring side? I left mine in thinking it may reduce some some of the stress on the forks on bottoming. Is there any chance the cone isn't sitting straight on the cart, if you rotate it 180deg it may work OK(I doubt it though.
Worn bushes will also cause dramas on bottom out, my Kowas gouged the **** out of the air spring all the way down because of incorrect bushes. So to anyone that is looking to put an Avy cart in something rule out RS and Kowa they are both crap!
Also did you leave the bottom out bumper on the spring side? I left mine in thinking it may reduce some some of the stress on the forks on bottoming. Is there any chance the cone isn't sitting straight on the cart, if you rotate it 180deg it may work OK(I doubt it though.
Worn bushes will also cause dramas on bottom out, my Kowas gouged the **** out of the air spring all the way down because of incorrect bushes. So to anyone that is looking to put an Avy cart in something rule out RS and Kowa they are both crap!
I took the bottom-out ring out on the damper side. As for the spring side, with the airspring of the world cup I shouldn't have the problem correct?
As for the damage to the cones, I suppose I'll get another day of riding on it, and then tear it apart and take some photos to update any new marks or damage. There should be new marks, if any, being it would be amazing to have lined up the same spot exactly where it left marks before.
From looking at your post again, I would agree with you that the hole in the center of the lowers is off. When you bolt in the bottom compression cart, that alone is what makes the rest of the cartridge sit cock-eyed in the leg. It has to be being there is nothing centering the cartridge at that time other than that one connection. As for fixing that.... I imagine there is absolutely nothing that can be done I could think of being it would not make a solid seal afterwards the same size fittings/o-rings.
I believe the damage on the cone of the bottom of the damper rod itself is probably due to having the oil-lock ring backwards. I could see that causing the damage. As for the damage on the damper assembly itself, I still believe that it's due to an off-center hole at the bottom of the lower. Sure, having the tapered side of the oil-lock ring turned around could have had something to do with it, but I will find out once I tear it apart again after the next riding day. If there are marks on the damper again then obviously damage is going to occur due to a bad casting regardless of oil-lock ring orientation.
Honestly I don't mind the clicking of the bottom out and the engagement of the cones. It has to be barely off that low in the stroke being it's not off by much at the top rebound cap. So as you compress the assembly further down, the amount it is off by decreases as well. As long as the assembly is "safe to ride" and I won't have the $420 cartridge I just bought be a useless scrap in 2 weeks, I have no issues with it. The metal shavings in the oil are very fine and shouldn't effect performance.
One of my Boxxer/Ava-friends just visited. I have stored his forks and cartridge for him and he just visited to pick everything up. We had a look at his lowers and discovered big chunks of powder coat inside the hole at the bottom just inside the lip. He took a swiss army knife and scraped it off with the can opener. After this the ABS cone seems to sit strait alowing the cartridge to be nearly dead center inside the stachion.
Maybe this will work for you too. Unfortunately it made no difference on mine :-(
Maybe this will work for you too. Unfortunately it made no difference on mine :-(
a good way to do the reaming of the hole is fit the lowers in a drill press and that way it tries to center the hole if its off a smidge. craig is trying to eliminate this issue with a fix.
Hmmm, I too have noticed a clicking sound near the end of the fork's travel. I always thought it was the spring.
I'll perform a rebuild sometime early next month and see how much the damper's cone has worn. If possible, I might even slap it onto a lathe and turn it down a hair.
I'll perform a rebuild sometime early next month and see how much the damper's cone has worn. If possible, I might even slap it onto a lathe and turn it down a hair.
I just got done tearing down the boxxer and inspecting everything. Yes, the oil lock ring was in upside down, but from what I saw, it's the crooked lowers that are causing the issue. I turned the ring around and did a full compression test, and yes, metal on metal sounds came out of the fork. I took a video with my iphone as well as took photos of the "damage". I'm not sure what the take of the people at Avalanche is on this, if it's fine to run like this, i'll keep it up, if not the fork will be sold as well as the cart. I am once again, incredibly disappointed in Sram and their Rockshoxx products.
Here are photos, my guess is the damage (being only one side) is strictly due to the crooked lowers. Keep in mind, this is only after one day of riding today ( about 8 runs) and then some sessioning for about 3 hours yesterday.
As of today after finding this, the fork is staying off my bike until I can get some answers.
Video.... the higher-pitched metal on metal is the "bottom-out" at full compression. The "pop" is my toolbox flexing.
http://s202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/DODpiG/?action=view¤t=BoxxerGrind.mp4
My guess is the oil lock ring is not facing chamfer down and the snap ring is not completely in the groove or its the stock one with the eye holes, not the thiner eyeless clip provided with the cart kit. Either way you should give us a call.
Can you explain this procedure?
Seems to be a number of issues to address. The bottom surface of the lowers not flat, hole off center, residues from the casting near the lip in the hole, powdercoating inside the hole.... Is Craig redesigning the ABS cone? To me the ABS cone seems to be the weak part of the upgrade kit. It´s just too vulnerable to the variations between the individual lowers - none of the five sets of boxxer lowers I have seen were identical in that area.
So what's the deal? Need some cliff notes
All RS lowers are crooked? Does this affect integrity of the fork when using the stock cartridges or does it damage only Avy cartridges?
All RS lowers are crooked? Does this affect integrity of the fork when using the stock cartridges or does it damage only Avy cartridges?
Of the 3 2010's i have done surgery on 1 had a bad bore hole and the other 2 were ok
Yep, will be fine.
Oil shavings on the damper side are really not a great thing to have floating around in there.
Now a question for everyone, which fork would be best to buy to fit the Avy damper in, cost is a big factor.
Originally when I took the lowers off to check things out and took the photos, the oil-lock ring was upside down.
As for the video, that is after the oil-lock ring has been turned around to the correct orientation. As you can hear in the video, it's still making a very distinct metal on metal sound at full compression.
Craig, I'll give a call on Monday about it.
As for the video, that is after the oil-lock ring has been turned around to the correct orientation. As you can hear in the video, it's still making a very distinct metal on metal sound at full compression.
Craig, I'll give a call on Monday about it.
the tolerances on the hydraulic bottom out are tight you may have ovalized or scored the lower piece so when it engages it scores itself. my guess is you messed the lower cone up after the first hit.with the oil lock ring in upside down and marred the cone and or edge of lock ring causing.scoring now.
if its the inner flat surface your kind of screwed unless seekins brings out his resolve if the hole is bored off a smidge.you can lock the.lowers in a drill press and tap the hole straight down.
Can someone draw in paint or something what seems to be the problem?
the oil lock ring that c-clips into the stanchion has a tapered side and a squared off side. the tapered side is supposed to be facing down or towards the c-clip so when the fork compresses the hydraulic bottom out cone on the bottom of the lower slides into it. thats the reason its important the taper is facing the lowers if not contact can damage the tolerances.
Is the cone designed not to touch the oil lock ring at all?
On the Boxxers that we were able to fix, at least two of them has that squichy sound when the oil lock ring touches the cone. Is that ok or shouldn´t they be touching at all?
Yeah, thanks, but what's the problem with the fork legs? Is the cartridge resting on an uneven surface causing the cone to touch the c-clip more than it should, or the holes at the bottom of the leg are misaliged.. or both?
thats fine there will be blowby as it ramps up. metal to metal isnt good squish etc should be fine.
After speaking with Craig this morning for a good while the problems have been resolved and simply come down to USER ERROR on the install. So, entirely my fault and no fault of Avalanche's product.
Most likely, the damage on the cartridge body is due to the snap ring holding the oil-lock ring not being fully seated and contacting the cartridge body through the first major bottom out that reset it. That would explain why my first bottom-out was quite harsh compared to following bottom-outs.
As for the cones, that would be due to the oil-lock ring being installed upside down. The damage on one side being caused by the flex in the fork upon bottom-out and the two pieces coming together with things being installed backwards.
New bits are being sent out to replace the damaged ones. Craig said he would even send them for free, which is awesome customer service, but I insisted that I had to pay for them being it was my own fault and not that of Avalanche.
So far aside from my own error, the cartridge has been awesome compared to my 2010 boxxer internals in my world cup. Just so buttery on larger hits and soaks up the small chatter way better than the original cartridge. To add to this, Craig's customer service at the company is awesome and he will take as much time as it takes to help you get the information you need and the right product for your needs ordered.
Most likely, the damage on the cartridge body is due to the snap ring holding the oil-lock ring not being fully seated and contacting the cartridge body through the first major bottom out that reset it. That would explain why my first bottom-out was quite harsh compared to following bottom-outs.
As for the cones, that would be due to the oil-lock ring being installed upside down. The damage on one side being caused by the flex in the fork upon bottom-out and the two pieces coming together with things being installed backwards.
New bits are being sent out to replace the damaged ones. Craig said he would even send them for free, which is awesome customer service, but I insisted that I had to pay for them being it was my own fault and not that of Avalanche.
So far aside from my own error, the cartridge has been awesome compared to my 2010 boxxer internals in my world cup. Just so buttery on larger hits and soaks up the small chatter way better than the original cartridge. To add to this, Craig's customer service at the company is awesome and he will take as much time as it takes to help you get the information you need and the right product for your needs ordered.
Nice on you for owning up to install error. Glad you got it all sorted out .....
Hmm.. blowby as it ramps up? Do you mean that the squishy sound comes from the bottom out hydraulics?thats fine there will be blowby as it ramps up. metal to metal isnt good squish etc should be fine.
We compressed the forks before putting the oil in just to check, and there is definitely a "squich" coming from metal-to-metal contact when the oil lock ring enters the cone. There is no clunk, just the oil lock ring and the cone slightly touching each other.
I also talked with Craig about that issue. As he explained it to me, it made quite a bit of sense. So when are you compressing it by hand, you are not exerting nearly the same force as when riding. With the additional force, the two cones are coming together much faster, and with oil, forces the oil to flow around the cones evenly which centers the assembly as the two cones meet.
Hopefully that makes sense to you, I can try to explain more if you'd like.
lyric 160mm and 180mm carts are out
888 and 66 evo ti carts are out but by order only for now
NOTES:
Make sure beveled edge of oil lock ring is facing down towards lowers when installing
make sure to use suplied c-clip and that its completely in the groove and not obstructing the sliding of the cart
when filling with oil make sure the oil covers the larger tube top where the slider goes in to prevent air sucking in and cavitation, foaming or possible void in damping
when removing cart make sure o-ring on bottom of cone is removed as well from the lowers
when installing cart you can use slick honey or other like product to hold the o-ring to bottom of cone to ensur proper aljgnment and seal.
you can remove both rubber bumpers on boxxers from both sides when installing cart. the hydraulic bottom out takes over here.
888 and 66 evo ti carts are out but by order only for now
NOTES:
Make sure beveled edge of oil lock ring is facing down towards lowers when installing
make sure to use suplied c-clip and that its completely in the groove and not obstructing the sliding of the cart
when filling with oil make sure the oil covers the larger tube top where the slider goes in to prevent air sucking in and cavitation, foaming or possible void in damping
when removing cart make sure o-ring on bottom of cone is removed as well from the lowers
when installing cart you can use slick honey or other like product to hold the o-ring to bottom of cone to ensur proper aljgnment and seal.
you can remove both rubber bumpers on boxxers from both sides when installing cart. the hydraulic bottom out takes over here.
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you should put this on the first page. its useful info people should know.
Is everyone buying the midvalve kit?
will do.
Thought this was pretty clear on my cart that I got a few weeks ago. Good to reinforce it though I suppose. Especially if you decide to change forks or something.
I bought it due to Craig's recommendation. I believe he said it's for riders 180lb's and over, or those that just want a bit more stiffness in the initial stroke. I believe it's designed to be a sort of "pro pedal" for the front that limits compression on light duty things such as cornering and pedaling. If you give Craig a call at Avalanche he can give you the full scoop on it and help you decide if it's needed or not.
Has anyone figured out a fix for lowers with a messed up casting, im waiting to hear back on warranty but Im not optimistic. This really is a disappointment.
Yes. I fixed mine. SRAM Europe didn't cover it and having a machine shop to fix them was just too expensive. Here's what you can do with a Boxxer Race (at your own risk):
1. Take the topcap from the spring side. Attach a coin with a diameter just bigger than the ABS cone to the topcap. Cut a piece of sandpaper and attach that to the coin. I used a thin double sided tape. The topcap on the Race is completely flat, but if you have a Team or a WC I guess you have to get a topcap from the Race.
2. Fit the topcap to one of the stanchions and insert it upside down into the lowers. Be careful not to scratch the seals.
3. When the topcap/sandpaper reaches the bottom of the lowers, twist and turn to sand the bottom square. You will have to replace the sandpaper from time to time. Inspect the sanded surface. You are done when the sanded surface becomes a circle. This will take you an hour. Be careful not to sand down too much.
4. Blow out dust and make sure you clean the inside properly.
If the cartridge is still out of center at the topcap, the hole in the bottom of your lowers may be crooked too. This will pull the cone sideways even if the bottom is square. Mine was, so I modified the ABS cone too. I cut the piece of the cone that fits inside the hole leaving just 3 mm to center the ABS cone. That did the trick for me. The cartridge is now dead center. I emailed Craig at Avalanche about it, and he replied that the fix would work OK.
I mounted the forks to my bike last night but I haven't tried it out on the trails yet. I'll report back how the modifications holds up.
Is there any kind of spherical washer that could be used to compensate for the poor alignment? I'm not a mcmaster pro, but it seems like that could work... If it exists.
exactly. Really sad that it would come to that, but that's what I was thinking.
Just got mine installed! To be tested tomorrow at DIablo.
With the Mid-Valve installed, what is a good rebound and comp starting point if I like the fork plush/soft/fast but don't want to dive too badly in berms?
With the Mid-Valve installed, what is a good rebound and comp starting point if I like the fork plush/soft/fast but don't want to dive too badly in berms?