[blacky]

I don't really do any downhilling with my bike, just slow rocky trails
with lots of steep, short, rocky, ledgy climbs and drops. Lots of rough cross country really. I love my 5th but am drawn
by all the raves of the avalanche. What are the pros and cons?
I don't really care weather or not it bobs, I thought the fox pedaled just
fine. What I'm interested in is wether I can tune in enough bottom out
and still have a supple and spry ride.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

The Avalanche is a great shock, however from what you say you ride, save the $ and stick with your 5th, they work great on Bullits.

 

[me89]

yeh what he said. you mentioned the word uphill and that is it for an avy. there heavy and they are made specifically for dh. never ridin one so going on what ive heard so i will probly be wrong about the uphill comment. but sticck with what brian said he knows what hes doin.

 

[DßR]

I have nothing whatsoever to contribute, but I'll post anyway.

Cool, thanks.

 

[DßR]

blacky -- the Av pedals great with low-speed compression in place, and holds up awesome. It is the definition of "supple", esp. compared to the 5th. It also can be tuned to be extremely hard to bottom out (perhaps impossible to bottom with hyd. lockout, but I forget whether that's only for the Av. forks?) and that bottom-out protection will not effect the suppleness earlier in the stroke.

It's very heavy though. If weight is a concern forget it.

 

[blacky]

an issue i have with the 5th is that when climbing up really steep stuff
it tends to sag almost completely into its stroke. especially when transitioning from flat to straight up. My interest in the avy is that (like the
rc) you're held up by a spring rather than an overdamped under sprung unit like the 5th. Don't get me wrong I climb the heck out of my 5th but I had
a certain edge with the rc that I'm thinking I could get with the avy.
If I was concerned about weight I wouldn't be riding a 39 lb cc bullit.
Sure I can set the 5th up to not bottom or sag out too easily but then it doesn't really move much over anything. Given the linear nature of the bullit suspension a truly bottom resistant shock would (in theory) make it
a superior climber. The issue here, i think, is at what point in the stroke does the avy start to slow down? if it's in the last 1/4" and after it's riding on
the bottom out bumper then I'd say fugedaboudit. That's how the 5th rides already, which is what makes the travel seem really long when your on the trail. If it's around the last 1/3 of the stroke then it may be a contender. If the guys at avalanche are truly
good at custom tuning then it may be possible to set it up firmish from the get go anyway.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

How much do you weigh and what weight spring do you currently have?

 

[kidwoo]

The thing with avalanche shocks is that you really do get the damper set up for YOUR bike, size and riding style. They get built to order with subtle variations in damper setups according to answers you give to craig. When this is done, avys are still probably the best perfoming shock out there, especially where there's room for improvement like within the bullit's falling rate progression curve. Craig can pretty much set up the shock to ride "where" you want it in its travel based on tuning it with everything in consideration.....rider weight, bike design, proper spring weight etc.

If you dug the fox, why not just stick with a standard propedal RC? They're literally close to half the weight of an avy and like you said, work more off of the spring rather than a stressed damper. I can say this though....the avy will most likely out last the frame.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

The thing with avalanche shocks is that you really do get the damper set up for YOUR bike, size and riding style. They get built to order with subtle variations in damper setups according to answers you give to craig. When this is done, avys are still probably the best perfoming shock out there, especially where there's room for improvement like within the bullit's falling rate progression curve. Craig can pretty much set up the shock to ride "where" you want it in its travel based on tuning it with everything in consideration.....rider weight, bike design, proper spring weight etc.

If you dug the fox, why not just stick with a standard propedal RC? They're literally close to half the weight of an avy and like you said, work more off of the spring rather than a stressed damper. I can say this though....the avy will most likely out last the frame.

And the good thing about the Avy, it can usally be changed top fit most other frames. I have never ridden a Bullet with an Avy, however I do like 5th on that bike over the original Fox RC. Also never ridden a Pro Pedal Fox even though my Army came with one.

 

[blacky]

175 wet, running a 375lb spring @ 110psi for the 5th

oh yeah the rc went back to fox like I forget how many times. never again
will i use a dinky little thing like that. Plus I do like the xtra inch with the
longer stroking 5th. While on the subject- the rc wasn't very smooth ah the tradeoffs.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

What about changing the spring to a 400 or 450?

 

[Brian HCM#1]

The Avy for a 7" travel frame is 8.5 x 2.5 so the spring weight is either a 450 or 550 for the steel spring.

 

[LOOnatic]

I didn't like the 5th on the bulliit no matter what i did to it.
I even had progressive dial it in at a national and it just wasn't the shock for me.
I felt as if it would fight my bunny hops and sag when i didn't want it to.

Not saying they suck just not for me.

Anyway, got a great deal on a used avy and had craig set it up for the bullit.

heavy? YES

killer in every other way? YES

call me crazy but it actually climbs plenty good and as good as the 5th IMO but that not what i bought it for.Again, the 5th/swinger shocks are great units also just not the characteristic i was looking for in a shock.

And it takes all the drops, hucks, jumps,cases, dead sailors, crashes and carving you can do to it.

PS. You DO have to have it set up internally (valved) for your weight, riding style and bike and Craig ain't the most pleasant to deal with but his product is high level.

 

[kidwoo]

Have you thought about a swinger? You can pretty much get one of those to behave like any other shock. It can take a while to get it dialed though. They have many variables and they do change noticibly with adjustments.

 

[LOOnatic]

Have you thought about a swinger? You can pretty much get one of those to behave like any other shock. It can take a while to get it dialed though. They have many variables and they do change noticibly with adjustments.

Isn't the swinger just a better built 5th?
IE, his situation would not change.

 

[blacky]

a 400lb spring on the 5th sets up with next to nothing in sag and I might as well get a hardtail. to say nothing about ruining the pivot chain line.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Get an Avy then, I don't have a lot of riding time on a 5th but really did like it when I was riding a Bullit, especially compared to a Romic and older Fox. Thats just me though. I love my Avy a lot!!!!!

 

[kidwoo]

Isn't the swinger just a better built 5th?
IE, his situation would not change.

Same idea but executed better in my opinion. I've had a good bit of time to play around with a 4 way on a giant ac and a demo 9 and a 6-way on a gemini and another demo 9. I felt like I could get a lot more noticible differences when playing with the low speed compression, air volume and spv pressures than on the 5th elements.

The 5th shocks I played with were on a bullit and an intense m1. In both cases with the 5th, I felt like I could get them into only one realm that felt ridable. Kind of like playing with a fox rc, there were adjustments that you could change but only a small window that most would cosider ideal. With the swingers, I felt like I could get them to ride completely linear, really damped at the end stroke, super platformish or totally active.

Unfortunately I never got to compare the two on the same frame though. Geminis and bullits are pretty similar feeling with the old fox rcs so there may be some validity between those two.

 

[blacky]

thnx loonatic nice response= actual ride time abservations.
what did craig charge for the revalving? they claim 2lb 10 0z on their site for the
one that fits the bullit, are they even close?

 

[OGRipper]

Blacky, I think Brian was on the right track, it sounds like your spring is not heavy enough. Did you change the adjustments at all when you tried the 400? Just doesn't sound right that you are wallowing deep in travel at 375 but 400 istoo much. I'm about 190 or so and run a 450 on a vpfree. Also, do you know about the volume adjuster you can use to dial in more progressivity/bottom resistance? You can tweak the 5th to have a lot of different personalities, but they seem to always feel a little dead to me.

Regardless, from what you're you should check out a Fox DHX, independent propedal and bottom resistance adjustments, more lively Fox feel, lighter weight, less $$$.

But I haven't ridden an Avy or a swinger so take this for what it's worth...

PS, what is a pivot chain line?

 

[blacky]

given that the 5th relies heavily on damping small changes in spring rate greatly affects the ride, tuning range etc. additionally a heavier spring requires more air pressure to keep rebound in check, more air pressure makes the breakaway platform stiffer and the two combine to make a lousy ride. a bullit pedals more efficiently with the more sag you dial in bacause the chain line is more directly in line with the pivot. The Free has a higher leverage ratio requiring a heavier spring (and or damping) for starters. With all the claims of the 5th making the bullit pedal better few have mentioned that the longer shock makes the bike ride higher which effectively raises the pivot which effectively degrades pedaling efficiency.

 

[kidwoo]

given that the 5th relies heavily on damping small changes in spring rate greatly affects the ride, tuning range etc. additionally a heavier spring requires more air pressure to keep rebound in check, more air pressure makes the breakaway platform stiffer and the two combine to make a lousy ride. a bullit pedals more efficiently with the more sag you dial in bacause the chain line is more directly in line with the pivot. The Free has a higher leverage ratio requiring a heavier spring (and or damping) for starters. With all the claims of the 5th making the bullit pedal better few have mentioned that the longer shock makes the bike ride higher which effectively raises the pivot which effectively degrades pedaling efficiency.

There is an ideal (1 and only) shock length for that bike depending on what year it is. Regardless of manufacturer, this should stay the same. You might have the wrong shock for your bullit?

 

[Brian HCM#1]

There is an ideal (1 and only) shock length for that bike depending on what year it is. Regardless of manufacturer, this should stay the same. You might have the wrong shock for your bullit?

Good call.

 

[OGRipper]

A heavier spring requires more air pressure to keep rebound in check? Not in my experience. I've got 5th coils on a Heckler and a vpfree and 5th air on a blur and I find that more air pressure requires more rebound damping, not the other way around. But whatever, just offering an opinion, ignore it if you like.

You sound very sure of yourself, but before you give up on the 5th, per Kidwoo's comment you might want to make sure you've got the right shock on your bike.

 

[blacky]

I'm on my third frame all new from sc. my current one is 2 weeks old with the 5th
new from sc. regardless, i've ridde all versions with an rc and the rides are
very similar. the changes in geometry between frames is negligable. having said that, i have noticed that not all 5the's spec'ed for the bullit ride the same. my current one is the softest of the bunch. there is a new type of bumper on mine now,
hard as a rock at first but breaking in nicely.

 

[bighitfsr]

Stick with the 5th.
Avys work best on frames with a rising suspension rate (linkage actuated sinlge pivots and most linkage bikes).

Although the DHS-RC has a bottom out feature this really only effects the last tiny bit of travel.
Avys are linear in terms of spring rate and only slightly progressive in terms of compression damping (twin/floating piston design I believe).
5ths are progresive in both respects and are progression tuneable to boot (SPV chamber volume).
Combined with a linear or falling rate suspension design an Avy will be too linear and will need to be setup much stiffer than a 5th to keep it from blowing through its travel.

On a suitable frame the avy blows everything else out of the water and its still very good on frames that arent perfectly suited to it (my housemate Cavedweller had one on a super8 and it rocked). But its particuarly unsuited to a bullit so the benifits of the avalanche are offset by the frame. (The newest bullit design is falling rate I believe).

The best shock upgrade for your bike is the fox DHX as its got similar properties to the 5th but according to JM is much much smoother (not too expensive either). You would probabaly save some weight over a 5th if you go for a DHX.

 

[blacky]

Excellent Post Thanks.

 

[lonewolfe]

You guys are running some pretty heavy spring weights on your Bullits. I am 220lbs and have a 375lb spring that came on my large Bullit and also a 350lb spring that Progressive gave me when I sent my shock in for a rebuild last winter. The 375lb spring is great for climbing but I feel is kind of harsh in the rough stuff. The 350lb spring is super plush in the rough but but bobs quite a bit more on the climbs. I've been running around 135lbs of air pressure and the nobs are pretty close to the stock suggested settings. I've also tried a Vanilla RC on my bike which reduced travel to 6". The fox was really plush and was amazing for springing off of jumps but when it came to landing it was not that great. I find the 5th Element seems bottomless on landings.

Back to the weights, if I were to follow you other guys then I'd be running a 450-500lb spring and I can't imagine the bike would be a lot of fun to ride. Santa Cruz's setup chart suggest a 375lb spring for my weight. I personally like the feel of the 350lb. Perhaps I should go back and try the 375lb again and play with the setting some more to see what happens. I guess I am not that patient for all this and prefer a set it and leave it type shock. About the only thing I ever adjust is the air pressure. If know I am going to be doing a lot of climbing I take it up to 150lb of air pressure. After I am on top of the mountain I let out 25 - 30lbs for the trip back down. Any other Clydes out there reading this? How do you have your 5th's set up?

 

[tmmccree]

I'm also running a Bullit, and have both a Fox RC (custom tuned by Mojo UK) and a 5th Elephant custom tuned by Tim Flooks.

My Fox is the original that came on the frame, so its a 7.785x2.25.
The 5th Elephant is an 8.5x2.5.

Both shocks are suitable for the frame, it just depends where you place the front shock mount.

I've never been able to get the 5th Element tuned to a level that I like. I've tried various combos of spring/air/volume, but its just not the right shock for me. I'm not keen on the platform thats created, even with minimal air pressure.

I'm now back on the Fox. I just prefer how it performs.