[powderboy]

Ok... so I've seen plenty of reviews on the Avid mechanical disk brakes, but as a long-time hydraulic brake user, I still find it hard to believe that they are as good as they claim to be.

I've had two sets of Hayes hydros (one w/6" rotors f&r, one w/8" rotors f&r) and one set of Grimecca hydros. I have really loved all of them. The Grimecca's lack a bit of power compared to the Hayes, but they modulate better. It's a give and take.

I really don't know many people using the Avids, but I have seen plenty of people raving about them. The mags pretty much love them next to the Hayes hydros.

What gives? I want to hear REAL riders experiences with Avids vs. Hayes or other hydros.

 

[LostBoyScout]

There's really nothing to make a hydro brake so much more powerful than a cable brake. It's all just leverage points and stuff. Hydro's excel in that the fluid doesn't compress or expand though.

I donno I've tried both a little, I prefer hydralic but not by a lot.

 

[-BB-]

Originally posted by LostBoyScout
There's really nothing to make a hydro brake so much more powerful than a cable brake. It's all just leverage points and stuff. Hydro's excel in that the fluid doesn't compress or expand though.

I donno I've tried both a little, I prefer hydralic but not by a lot.

DITTO.

 

[JJHACK]

I've used both extensively and cannot see enough difference between the two to justify the 3X cost and greater complexity of the Hydro's. The Avids nearly install themselves by comparison to a Hydro setup. In my opinion their is a certain "feel" to Hydraulics that is nice when you first start using them, they seem wonderful. When you switch to the Avids( with speed dial levers) they may seem "grabby" at first but within a few miles that goes away and they feel just about the same. That Grabby feeling also goes away completely with break in. Once you have 50 miles on a set of Avids they work as well in power and modulation as any Hydro's I have used.

I guess I don't see one being better in performance then the other to be honest. But when you add in ease of install and adjustment and the huge cost difference that put's the Avids ahead for me. By the way I have used the 6" Hayes front and rear, 6" Avid front and rear, and 6" rear- 8" front Hayes. The 6 Inch rear Avids and the 8" front Avids on my current Stinky Deelux.

 

[powderboy]

Hmmm...

I think, from what I've seen and heard, the biggest plus for the Avids is the easy setup and maintenance.

I have broken a hydraulic line on a trail and it's not pretty and getting the Hayes to be rub-free on a consistent basis is a pain in the butt. I still would like to test them out head-to-head though.

 

[oldfart]

The big advantage hydraulic has over cable actuated is maintenance. I don't know about other brands but bleeding Hayes is pretty simple once you've done it. The Hayes manual is difficult to follow because they shove a warning about hydraulic fluid every second paragragh. Cable systems in my local environment will require far more maintenenace that a hydraulic line. When I was a rim brake user, I needed new cable and housing about 7 or 8 times a year and cleaning cables and lubbing was a weekly event. Wouldn't be too much different with cable discs I expect.

There is a concern with damaging a line but its pretty rare. I put a pinhole in one once but it wasn't enough to ruin the ride. One hole in 4 seasons is pretty good. That's probably over a 1000 rides at an average of 1.5 hours.

Hayes brakes are pretty simple. A couple pistons with seals at one end, a lever and piston and reservoir at the other. I'll bet a mechanical brake has way more parts and is more complex. From what I hear, the Avids are excellant and I'm sure reliable. They are a little heavier if that's a concern.

 

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by oldfart
The big advantage hydraulic has over cable actuated is maintenance. I don't know about other brands but bleeding Hayes is pretty simple once you've done it. The Hayes manual is difficult to follow because they shove a warning about hydraulic fluid every second paragragh. Cable systems in my local environment will require far more maintenenace that a hydraulic line. When I was a rim brake user, I needed new cable and housing about 7 or 8 times a year and cleaning cables and lubbing was a weekly event. Wouldn't be too much different with cable discs I expect.

There is a concern with damaging a line but its pretty rare. I put a pinhole in one once but it wasn't enough to ruin the ride. One hole in 4 seasons is pretty good. That's probably over a 1000 rides at an average of 1.5 hours.

Hayes brakes are pretty simple. A couple pistons with seals at one end, a lever and piston and reservoir at the other. I'll bet a mechanical brake has way more parts and is more complex. From what I hear, the Avids are excellant and I'm sure reliable. They are a little heavier if that's a concern.

And feel. My hydraulics are always smooth. Cables feel terrible in comparison.

 

[JJHACK]

I have two bikes with Avids now and neither have ever had a rubbing problem? Of the guys I ride with about 50/50 use Avids and I don't know any of them with Disc's rubbing the pads. Well I guess I do know a couple who have had that problem but they whad warped or otherwise troubled rotors. With new or Good rotors I've never heard of a single person with rubbing.

From time to time I will get dust or dirt in them that may rub, or "chirp" but that is just maintaince or a simple click of adjustment. Nothing to consider a problem.

 

[powderboy]

Bleeding the Hayes seems daunting at first, but I'm sure it is quite simple. Squeeze out all bubbles, screw caps on and yeehaw!

I've beeen meaning to learn how to do it all season long, but just haven't gotten around to it.

I must admit that I haven't had much problems with any of my Hayes systems and the 8" rotors are amazing!

With the cable-actuated brakes, you would have to replace the housing every so often to keep them smooth right? I guess that's akin to bleeding a hydro system eh?

JJHACK
North Bend eh? Is that where you are now? I need to bring my bici up there one of these days when I head home. I'm actually going to Seattle this weekend, but I'm flying, so no bikie.

 

[JJHACK]

Send me an Email when you come though there is a nice 17 mile loop through a nice section of treefarm I was managing for a while. It's not tough after the first mile up hill. It's grown over logging road with nice views and lots of wildlife. Mostly a casual ride. I'm working on rebuilding to 2-3 miles of over grown single track connected to it. It's hard for one guy to do it though. This section of single track is nice and all down hill. I'm in the USA for all but the early spring and into late June. I'm in Africa working during those months each year. Bring your bike over.

 

[VTinCT]

My Avids are the bomb! OUr crew is split 50/50 as well, but a few of the hydro guys are hooking up the Avids on their new bikes.

Aside from the obvious instalation ease, the Avid lever feel is so amazingly variable, and easy to fine tune to your desired feel. Any time I hop on a bike with hydros, I get the "on/off switch" feel that has kept me away from them.

Also, the pad adjustment is kick ass on the Avids, and, I can tell you from experience, if you keep a spare brake cable at ther bottom of your pak, you will never have to worry about the scetchy ride home! I had a rear cable pulled out on a downhill, and it took all of 4 minutes to run the spare cable through and set off again. By contrast, I was with a guy who lost his front line on his Hayes, and the ride out sucked!

My only real conscession here is really long descents where the hydros don't turn your forarms into Popeye-esque approximations!

At $80 a wheel, you'll have to try real hard to talk me out of the Avids!

 

[Roasted]

Hydros have better modulation allowing for more accurate feathering. Mechs tend to either lock or not lock with a little in between action. IMO Hydros are far superior. (especially when compared to hayes mechs)

 

[powderboy]

"Aggggagggaagggagggg...."

That's my best Popeye impersonation.

I don't want Popeye arms... I do still want to test out the Avids... we'll see if I can score a pair for head-to-head testing and product reviews...

 

[powderboy]

About the whole modulation deal... it seems like the Avids are supposed to modulate really well, but you get Popeye arms in the process eh?

Hayes don't modulate really well at all. They are really on/off... the Grimecca/XT brakesets do modulate better than the Hayes.

 

[gravity]

Originally posted by powderboy
About the whole modulation deal... it seems like the Avids are supposed to modulate really well, but you get Popeye arms in the process eh?

Hayes don't modulate really well at all. They are really on/off... the Grimecca/XT brakesets do modulate better than the Hayes.

Avids modulate better in most people's opinions, but i absolutely love the modulation of Hayes. strange as it may seem, i prefer the rock-solid feel of the Hayes to the "squish" of anything else. the Popeye effect of avids is cos they DO fade on long (or just hard braking) descents. (just ot for a moment, a few weeks ago i saw a Shimano rotor that looked like it had been welded.... it was stained that black-purple colour at the inner edge of the braking surface, just from heat.)

anyway, Avids will give you about 90-95% of the raw power (for same lever pressure) when both brakes are in optimal conditions (ie everything is working right and set up properly). The Avids have more controllable modulation, because the lever feel is slightly squishy (IMO). the avids however, are harder to get absolute optimum power out of, because the cable is pretty much an uncontrollable factor; it can stretch, get dirty, slip slightly in the clamps (NOT likely though). also a single-piston design is a bit limited because it has to rely on the elasticity of either the rotor, or the caliper somewhere. that isn't a big factor though. simply put, the Avids aren't easy to keep at 100% power, whereas Hayes are.

anyway, i'd definitely recommend the Avids to anyone. they kick the sh1t out of Hayes mechs, and value for money are 10x better than hydros...... but like anything, to get an extra 10% performance, you pay about 5x as much.

 

[powderboy]

Honestly, I do like the on/off feel of the Hayes hydros. I also like the feel of the Grimecca's. Seeing as I haven't ridden the Avids before I can see how they could nearly match Hayes for sheer stopping power, but fading seems to be an issue.

I could see how on long descents, the Avids would fade a bit more.

The bottom-line... I'd sure take any disc brake over V-brakes anyday!

 

[Rustmouse]

I've had both Avid Mechanicals, and Hayes Hydraulics.. the only difference in the feel is that you can sorta feel the cables stretching on the avids where on the hayes the response is a bit more crisp.... the hydraulics are stronger, but since it doesn't take much effort to stop a bicycle (compared to a car) that's such a minor difference that it's not worth mentioning...

The avids have the huge advantage that you can adjust the brakes in the woods with NO tools... just little red dials on the outsides of the caliper and you adjust both sides individually (instead of the Hayes where the caliper is loosened and slid back and forth over the disk)

For seriously intensive applications, like downhill riding or severe freeriding... the hydraulics are a stronger brake...

For everything else, and for retrofitting, I would go for the Avids every time! (the price is less, the parts are user replaceable with no special tools other than the usual bike set, etc) and they're simple and reliable

 

[MikeD]

The 'feel' issue of my Avids vs. my Hopes is a purely parking-lot issue. When I'm grabbing a handful of brake on a DH run, I'm concentrating on too many other things to make feel an issue at all. (Now that they're dialed-in, that is...see below.)

Avids are simple, and require more frequent but less-intense maintenance. Hydros are also simple, but can be intimidating until you're familiar with them. They don't fail often, but when they do need mainetenance, it's slightly more involved. (changing seals, lines, small internal parts, dealing with the toxic fluid, etc.)
I just rebuilt a Hope Pro lever, and it's honestly not hard...but it is time consuming and often requires a long wait on parts when your brakes go.

If you ride in mud a lot, the maintenance will be a serious consideration. But here in SoCal, the full-length housings make it pretty much a non-issue.

When hydros fail, the failure is typically catastrophic. Your brake is done until you get back to the garage, or at least your truck. (always a good idea to have lots of spare parts or even a whole spare brake available.) If Avids fail, you have a better chance of salvaging a ride on the trail...you can carry spare cable and housing with you. My friends in Moab carry this stuff as a matter of routine...not a good place to be stranded with no brakes.

Only complaints with my avids have been one pad adjuster falling off (can still adjust, but I need pliers to do it) and a definite grabbiness that has not faded with time. I just fixed that, however, by deliberately setting them up for less braking efficiency...I just moved the fixed pad a bit further from the rotor. Now they're a lot less scary.

If I was buying new brakes for my Big Hit right now, I'd get the Avids with big rotors. I'd love Hope 4-pots, but given the price difference, there's no contest.

MD

 

[VTinCT]

Great, fast, techy ride today....I just wanted to share with you all that I LOVE MY AVIDS!!! . :evil:

 

[Serial Midget]

I have Avids and cannot complain; the cost / benefit ratio is excellent. Installation and maintenance are nothing. After a few 15 to 20 mile rides you could actually note the performance improvement. In almost one year of riding, mainly in wet, muddy and gritty or dusty conditions I have had zero problems. For the money I don’t think you could go wrong with Avids.

 

[Islandmudpuppy]

I just bought some XT disks and they are excelent, almost went with the avids but got such a great deal on the xt's that I jumped on it. I wont talk about hayes because I have not had much time on them and grimeca's are crap for the most part. If money is a issue I would get some Avids the middle or biggest rotor, you wont have any complaints. If money is not a factor I would get XT's or Hope enduro 4's. What you will find it it takes a bit more lever strength on the avids becuase of the cables....but other than that they are great.

 

[golgiaparatus]

Here are the differences. I think they stop better than Hayes. It takes a bit more hand muscle to get them all the way to rotor crushing pressure but they get there. They are more touchy than Hayes in the lower half of the power spectrum (i.e. takes a lighter touch to feather them) which is odd since they take more strength to bring them to full power but I didnt say I had explinations, just observations. This may be due to the way I have my levers adjusted (Avid SD7). They are a bit more noisy, they dont squeal very much, but they do sometimes. Hayes almost never squeal. Avids take more adjusting but require no tools whatsoever to adjust or even replace pads. I find myself adjusting them a little about every 3 rides. Hayes never take adjustment. Like I started to mention above, you can use different levers with the Avids which is a plus. Another plus is that you can adjust things on the fly at the barrel adjusters on the lever or at any other point on your lever where knobs are present (like the Avids SD series). The biggest downfall of mech discs is the fact that the housings and cables wear out. You dont really have that problem with hydros. And last but not least, the avids are lighter.

Ta-dow,

- JB

 

[MikeD]

Hayes don't squeal...?

Again, there we have a testament to the fact that all the equipment opinions have so much to do with local and unquantifiable factors such as individual setup, interaction with other gear and parts, local riding conditions, ad infenitum, as to render them nearly useless.

That said, I guess we gotta talk about something...

MD

 

[powderboy]

Islandmudpuppy

I wont talk about hayes because I have not had much time on them and grimeca's are crap for the most part.

Sorry to burst your bubble bro, but Grimecca makes your XT brakes.

XT's and Grimecca System 8's are identical except the fluid (XT: mineral oil, Grimecca: DOT 3 fluid).

It seems like each system has its drawbacks, but the Avids offer such easy maintenance and adjustability, they should be considered in all but full-bore DH applications.

 

[Islandmudpuppy]

Originally posted by powderboy
Islandmudpuppy


Sorry to burst your bubble bro, but Grimecca makes your XT brakes.

XT's and Grimecca System 8's are identical except the fluid (XT: mineral oil, Grimecca: DOT 3 fluid).

That is a myth and if you dont believe me here is what Chris DiStefano of Shimano has to say about it in a recent QnA session.

Q: Are Shimano discs just a Grimeca in Japenese clothing?

A: No, and that's a horrible rumor by the way. We developed the Deore XT disc on our own and did not share any technical or intellectual property with Grimeca at any time.

They are NOT made by Grimeca, the only reason people think that they are the same is cause they are both 4 piston and kinda look alike. I wont talk about what I dont know, but thanks for lookin out for me.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by Islandmudpuppy


That is a myth and if you dont believe me here is what Chris DiStefano of Shimano has to say about it in a recent QnA session.

Q: Are Shimano discs just a Grimeca in Japenese clothing?

A: No, and that's a horrible rumor by the way. We developed the Deore XT disc on our own and did not share any technical or intellectual property with Grimeca at any time.

They are NOT made by Grimeca, the only reason people think that they are the same is cause they are both 4 piston and kinda look alike. I wont talk about what I dont know, but thanks for lookin out for me.

Ummm, Chris is lying. Grimeca definitely developed the brake for Shimano and the parts are directly interchangeable between the two...

Not that that's a bad thing. The grimecas are great brakes IMO. The system 12s were some of the nicest brakes I've ever felt.

 

[powderboy]

Nobody is trying to slam either the XT or the Grimecca's... in my mind they are both great brakes. I've used both.

I've read time and time again that Grimecca simply re-badged their brakes for Shimano. It's a pretty common practice in the bike parts world. You'll find identical parts made under supposedly different manufacturers.

Just like Ohio said, Chris is blowing smoke. Sometimes product managers walk a fine line to give the public what they want to hear.

The bottom-line, Grimecca's and XT's are basically the same brakes and that's fine by me. They are both excellent clamps.

 

[Islandmudpuppy]

I know someone who was there for the RnD for the XT's and he backs up Chris. I beleive that I am right and you beleive you are right...that is great. All I know is that if they were the same than there would be more happy system 8 owners....but I have spoken to few people that actualy have had good luck with them...its the complete oposite with XT's....I have not talked to a dissatified customer yet. I know mechanics who would not recomend grimeccas, they are team wrenches too.

 

[fonseca]

The biggest problem with avids is proper setup. People who have problems (assuming the calipers are properly positioned and adjusted) may not have ideal housing routing, or are using a cheap cable/housing set, or use non-adjustable brake levers. That has been my observation from most people complaining about braking quality anyway. Good levers like the sd7s and compressionless, teflon-lined brake housing go a long way in getting a frictionless feel. A full housing run to the rear brake helps too. Flak jackets or jagwire kevlar have worked well for me.

Anyway, I have run several hydraulic setups, and while the caliper setup may be a lot more difficult if your mount alignment or axle spacing is off (I did okay with magura louise but with the julies I had nothing but problems), the cable routing is a non-issue, and I think that is the best thing hydraulics have going for them, not modulation or power. After I tried avids for one day, I knew they were the brakes for me. I sold my hydraulic sets and now run 2001 avids on one bike and 2002 on my other.

The only real downside for me is their weight, but it's a worthy tradeoff.

 

[bighitfsr]

I have a an Avid cable disc on the front of my hardtail (with speed dial 7 levers) and XT hydros on my DH bike.
I find the Avids have plenty of power but lack control compared to my XTs.
For example I can nose wheelie much more easily on my DH bike with the hydros.
Its really scary nose wheelieing with the Avid on my hardtail, nearly gone over the front several times.
The Avids just dont give you as finer control as the XTs.
Plently powerful but I'd go a hydro on the front if you can afford it.
That said I'll never bother with hydros on the back again.
I'll probably put the Avid on the rear of my hardtail and get a hydro for the front.
One really big plus with avids is the cost of replacement levers.
I haven't dammaged a hydro lever yet, but its only a matter of time. I suspect a new XT hyro lever cost almost as much as a new brake.
I run my hydro levers loose so they are less likely to get dammaged in a crash.

 

[Serial Midget]

I use XT levers with my avids - I aleady had brand new XTs whos front calipers squeeled like a stuck pig. Chooseing the Avids saved me the cost of new levers. I have Avid 5 levers and clipers on my XC bike. They are at least equal to XT at less than 1/2 the price. Avid seems to give good bang for the buck.

EDIT: Sorry there... equal in stopping power and feel though not in overal quality but for $40.00 on Price Point... front, rear and levers... you can't go wrong.

 

[Ranger]

Servus!

I asked this question a while back, got some interesting feedback from the Avid crowd - thanks!

Anyhow, I have had Julies for two years now and have had no challenges whatsoever, despite my body's super-efficient method for storing unused energy. No bleed problems, no leaks, superb modulation, big power. Mind you, I don't do downhill - XC on a hardtail - so I can't comment about going mach 7 and having to panic stop before hitting that tree.

I think the secret is having them set up correctly by the shop and then not playing with them. That's where 80% of all problems begin - operator headspace and timing. Once you start playing with the system, that's when the problems start. My opinon.