[Brian HCM#1]

i guess the car industry is one of the few where dealer invoice prices can be gotten very easily. any others?

Car dealers usally buy cars lower than invoice just so you know, its a great marketing tool they have for selling a car. Believe me if you're buying a $50K car at $500 over invoice the dealership is still making a ton of money that you don't know about. Thats how they stay in business. However it IS a good deal to buy a car as a consumer at or around invoice.

 

[ohio]

i guess the car industry is one of the few where dealer invoice prices can be gotten very easily. any others?

Only because dealer invoices don't paint a full picture of what the car actually costs a dealer... if invoice was the true dealer cost of the car, and all these customers were paying invoice (which they are) dealerships wouldn't be around very long, would they.

Basically what dealerships have done is figured out a nice way to word the pricing to make people think they're getting a deal.

Say your fork retails at $1000, and it "invoices" at $800, but the dealer gets $300 for every fork they sell. Well then it makes it sound pretty good that they're selling you the fork "BELOW INVOICE PRICING!!!" at $750, but they're still making $250 over their true cost. This is how the automotive industry works (simplified version).

 

[syadasti]

Say your fork retails at $1000, and it "invoices" at $800, but the dealer gets $300 for every fork they sell. Well then it makes it sound pretty good that they're selling you the fork "BELOW INVOICE PRICING!!!" at $750, but they're still making $250 over their true cost. This is how the automotive industry works (simplified version).

Only they don't get the $300 if they don't move the inventory in X number of days, usually 90 days. There is financing or other incentives that enable a dealer to make money as long as they sell it within that time period...

 

[narlus]

yeah, i know about dealer holdbacks and all that, but for a general comparison, the data is there.

 

[Jorgen]

It seems to be hard to understand that shops have to make money.
I don't get it.

We have a problem here in Norway, all customers seems to think that bike have to be sold on sale. Every other product, be it tv's, DVD-players, dishwashers, cars or whatever is okey to pay retail. But bikes, oh man, we have to get a deal cause shops makes a hell of a lot of money those. yeah right.

I don't know how things are in shops in the us or canada, but sporting goods stores have some og the lowest margins of all categories of stuff. Clothing-shops makes a hell of a profit compared.

 

[syadasti]

I don't know how things are in shops in the us or canada, but sporting goods stores have some og the lowest margins of all categories of stuff. Clothing-shops makes a hell of a profit compared.

I'm pretty sure that in most countries supermarkets have the lowest margins of retail shops...

 

[Rik]

What about computer stores (as I mentioned earlier). Over here, some computer products will just about lose money when sold, so money has to be made elsewhere.

As for the car example, they may not make the biggest margin on a car (although they still get by), but it's the aftermarket accessories that rolls in the money, and it's big margin money too.

 

[mack]

There's a very simple reason why you're not supposed to post wholesale prices on message boards like this. Have you ever noticed how often online retailers, yours truly included, post "call for pricing" or something similar? This is because manufacturers don't want people advertising below MSRP so that you don't have some company (let's call them "Shmooperblow") buying in ridiculously high bulk quantities and undercutting everybody else in the market.

Now, let us assume that everybody who wants to buy a Fox DH40 somehow got ahold of the cost on the fork. I am going to make some numbers up to illustrate my point. Let's say cost on the fork is $600 (clearly this is not what actual cost will be). Let's also say that Shmooperblow is buying the forks 100 at a time, and is getting them for $400. However, everybody else is only buying 5 - 20 units at a time so they're paying basic wholesale, or right near that $600 mark. So people start calling companies and saying "Well I KNOW that wholesale is only $600, sell it to me for $700, you're still making a hundred bucks." Then the bike shop guys get pisses because everybody is calling asking for the super-bro hookdown on the fork. And they are forced to sell it for $100 over wholesale, even though they still have to pay shipping on the fork (about $10), keep it in the store and increase overhead, pay the sales guy $6 an hour to listen to somebody spout for 30 minutes about how he deserves a break on the price, etc etc. So the shop is almost making nothing on the fork when all is said and done.

Meanwhile, people are calling Shmooperblow with the same demands and they're like "Hey, $700 is almost keystone on what we pay for them. Sure, I'll sell you a fork for $700."

And Shmooperblow becomes Standard Oil of the bicycle industry and everybody loses, except for Mr Rockafeller, who doesn't even really ride his bike, and thinks downhillers are all a bunch of redneck idiots, so he starts buying full-face helmets that don't pass DOT or SNELL tests so that we will go huck ourselves off a cliff with our new $700 DH40 and DIE when the helmet explodes.

Anyway, don't post wholesale prices. Consumers don't need to know whole sale on jeans from the Gap, they don't need to know wholesale on Rolex watches, they don't need to know it for Fox downhill forks. In my humble opinion.

Is SHmooberblow supposed to be "supergo", maybe? A direct competitor? lol just kidding.

 

[Incubus]

What about computer stores (as I mentioned earlier). Over here, some computer products will just about lose money when sold, so money has to be made elsewhere.

As for the car example, they may not make the biggest margin on a car (although they still get by), but it's the aftermarket accessories that rolls in the money, and it's big margin money too.

I used to work at a home depot-type mega-store and they lost money on every anderson window they sold. The percent mark-up on the screens was respectable though. However, 33% of $30 is still only $10. Factor in the $5 loss on the window and you've barely broken even. Then again, if you're selling 100s a week it'll add up.

 

[James | Go-Ride]

Is SHmooberblow supposed to be "supergo", maybe? A direct competitor? lol just kidding.

'Course not.

 

[Kornphlake]

'Course not.

It must be a code name for performance then, which is essentially supergo without anything bicycle related, or maybe it's nashbar?

 

[mack]

i hate all those companys so much, there such a pain in the ass to deal with, only go-ride and universalcycles have been really helpfull.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

http://www.dirtworks.com.au/site/

Fox have released pricing for their new 36 & 40 forks. As promised, here is some ballpark pricing. NOT "set in stone" as yet, but it should give you an idea of the price points. Single crown 36 FR comes in two models. R & RC2.
36-R should be around $1599 (1,156.39 USD)

36-RC2 should be around $1899 (1,373.36 USD)

Dual crown 40 DH also comes in two models. R & RC2

40-R should be around $2475 (1,789.92 USD)

40-RC2 should be around $2999 (2,168.88 USD)

Would the prices be higher in Australia due to importing? 'Cause thats alot of coin.

hahahah i almost choked when i saw this....sorry bro i know it is aussy but ur insane

 

[Andy_B]

So its ok to post pictures of senstive materials (frames ect)... that get leaked... but now prices get leaked and a few people get all worked up.... something to think about...

So here is a general rule for bikes and related... The higher the cost the less mark-up there is. ( Not True in all cases, but most)

There are also contracts binding dealers to sell there (Insert Company Name Here) products at no less than a min set price. One of the other reasons dealers will not go below this price is, due to the fact that if dealer XXXXX down the street finds out that dealer YYYYY just sold the $1700.00 fox DH4 for lets say $1300.00... Fox can come in and remove there products from the dealer YYYYY, and no longer sell their product to dealer YYYYY.

So if people do know the whls prices it does them no benfit. Every dealer out there is out cut there comp. out of the market. No dealer (in there right mind) is going to risk getting a product pulled from their shelfs, because some loud mouth kid comes in with a whsl price in his pocket.

$.02

 

[Kornphlake]

I'm suprised that MBA hasn't hyped these forks up yet like they did with the vanilla and float a few years ago. You'd have thought that marzocchi, rock shox and manitou would all go out of business by the end of the next year from the rave reviews the magazines gave fox forx. Oh yeah forks of that vintage were known to be slightly heavier, although not the heaviest forks and as expensive as the most expensive comparable fork. I'd expect the same from the 36 and 40.

 

[mack]

I'm suprised that MBA hasn't hyped these forks up yet like they did with the vanilla and float a few years ago. You'd have thought that marzocchi, rock shox and manitou would all go out of business by the end of the next year from the rave reviews the magazines gave fox forx. Oh yeah forks of that vintage were known to be slightly heavier, although not the heaviest forks and as expensive as the most expensive comparable fork. I'd expect the same from the 36 and 40.

thats because FOX didnt pay them this year...

the people at MBA cant ride their way outta a wet paper bag.
they are so biased (sp?)

 

[Kornphlake]

Hmm so this fork is supposed to sell itself? In that case it best not have the horrendous bushing slop problem the gen 1 fox forx had, that's the #1 reason I won't buy any first production run fork from any company ever again.

I still think they should have bought off the media.

 

[mack]

especially at 1500 hundred bucks, they gotta be outa their mind, what makes it so special, its not even nitrogen charged! (i think)

 

[Andy_B]

There are no secrets to hide, obviously you don't own a retail business or you'd see what I was saying. Of course theres going to be a markup, but as a consumer, if a product lists for $2500 and you get it for $1900, you think your getting a kick ass deal, however if you found out that products cost was $799, you'd be pissed off and would want more $ off that price even though $1900 was a great deal as far as retail list goes. How would you feel about ordering bike parts on line and seeing "our cost".......$300......"your price" $750, I don't think it would sit well.

Remind us all not to shop where not shop at!

And yes, I know there are sales from the MFG to get better margins.

 

[freeridebiker21]

HOLY SH*T

i won't be buyin' that DC! :angry:

 

[snowskilz]

if my local shops gave me their time id buy stuff @ retail from them. but the general (notice the word general and not always) attitude i get is that they have better things to be doing with their time. so i buy online get stuff for just over cost and im happy.

There is no reason why someone should not put wholesale prices up on the internet. Come on now how many times have you looked at the real "quality" book with the real price's in it. We all know a shop needs to make money were not gonna want something at wholesale but if a shop hooks me up i will be back again and again and again. If a shop socks me 70 bux to change the springs in my fork im never gonna go back.

There is a shop in my old hometown 1800 miles from where i live currnetly that hooked me up year after year. i still order stuff from them til this day and pay for the shipping costs they incur.

 

[James | Go-Ride]

We all know a shop needs to make money were not gonna want something at wholesale but if a shop hooks me up ...

There are plenty of people who try and get wholesale pricing from shops, they are people who lurk around in forums trying to find who has the absolute lowest price on every single item that's going on their bike. It takes them six months to piece their bike together, and it usually requires extensive mods and wrench time to get it running (as far as pure DH bikes go). These people are the reason why there shouldn't be wholesale pricing available to the general public anywhere. I know this is a few bad apples/whole bunch thing, but from an inside perspective, sometimes those few bad apples do come pretty close to making a retailer want to drop a line entirely because somebody thought shops make too much money.

 

[Sherpa]

There are plenty of people who try and get wholesale pricing from shops, they are people who lurk around in forums trying to find who has the absolute lowest price on every single item that's going on their bike. It takes them six months to piece their bike together, and it usually requires extensive mods and wrench time to get it running (as far as pure DH bikes go). These people are the reason why there shouldn't be wholesale pricing available to the general public anywhere. I know this is a few bad apples/whole bunch thing, but from an inside perspective, sometimes those few bad apples do come pretty close to making a retailer want to drop a line entirely because somebody thought shops make too much money.

Exactly, i work at my LBS and we have a hard enough time with people who want deals already without having wholesale pricing readily avaible. On another note, i won't be able to order my DH40 until Monday and everyone gets back.

 

[freeriding101]

holy ****ing **** that is a lot of money, id rather have a new bike thank you very much

 

[SuperJ]

So its ok to post pictures of senstive materials (frames ect)... that get leaked... but now prices get leaked and a few people get all worked up.... something to think about...

So here is a general rule for bikes and related... The higher the cost the less mark-up there is. ( Not True in all cases, but most)

There are also contracts binding dealers to sell there (Insert Company Name Here) products at no less than a min set price. One of the other reasons dealers will not go below this price is, due to the fact that if dealer XXXXX down the street finds out that dealer YYYYY just sold the $1700.00 fox DH4 for lets say $1300.00... Fox can come in and remove there products from the dealer YYYYY, and no longer sell their product to dealer YYYYY.

So if people do know the whls prices it does them no benfit. Every dealer out there is out cut there comp. out of the market. No dealer (in there right mind) is going to risk getting a product pulled from their shelfs, because some loud mouth kid comes in with a whsl price in his pocket.

$.02

 

[gmac]

Here is what I don't get: (a bit of maybe too honest observation to follow)

I hear a lot of discussion about pricing, the LBS, & online shops. I guess some points are valid...

That being said, my buddy owns a shop and lets just say he isn't exactly hurting. The shop down the street from me, same thing. Both guys have real nice houses, nice cars... And, I think that is good thing to a point. I wish everyone to do well financially in life. But, the markup judging by these guys is obviously excessive.

Like many riders I bust my A$$ at work. Manual labor, nights, holidays, weekends, you name it... So, when I hear this pricing/ cat fight stuff I just shrug my shoulders. It gets a little silly. Because, you ever see a shop owner w/o two nickels to rub together ?

As responsible consumers you have to try to get the price to the minimum. Don't believe me ? Go try and buy a house.

 

[azonicbruce]

What I don't understand is, what's wrong with looking around to see who has the lowest prices? It's MY hard earned money, I can spend it wherever I please. If someplace else is able to get you what you want faster and CHEAPER, then why the attitude of "screw you cheapskate"? Boohoo for whoever has that attitude. Business is business; retailers need to stop taking everything so personal.

I'm really starting to get a sense that many LBS and even some Online retailers have this elitist attitude that says, "If you don't want to buy everything from me, then screw you, I'm not going to give you a good deal, and I'm not even going to bother dealing with you." That doesn't make anybody want to be a loyal customer; in most cases it just turns them off. So who ends up losing? Not me, I simply go find a place that really wants my business and who can meet my needs, the customer.

What really ticks me off is when a LBS or online retailer tries to convince you that you're wrong just in order for them to sell what they have available/whatever is more convenient for them. It's really sad that a curb-jibber such as myself knows MORE about new products and the market than those who are dealers and are supposed to be more informed than the rest of us. Then when they find out you're "looking elsewhere" they get all pissed off and don't want anything to do with you.

LBS's and online retailers need to stop taking things so personal when somebody decides to give somebody else their business. Instead they should be trying to find out WHY they weren't able to make the sale and work on those areas where they think will benefit their company.

 

[Transcend]

Here is what I don't get: (a bit of maybe too honest observation to follow)

I hear a lot of discussion about pricing, the LBS, & online shops. I guess some points are valid...

That being said, my buddy owns a shop and lets just say he isn't exactly hurting. The shop down the street from me, same thing. Both guys have real nice houses, nice cars... And, I think that is good thing to a point. I wish everyone to do well financially in life. But, the markup judging by these guys is obviously excessive.

Like many riders I bust my A$$ at work. Manual labor, nights, holidays, weekends, you name it... So, when I hear this pricing/ cat fight stuff I just shrug my shoulders. It gets a little silly. Because, you ever see a shop owner w/o two nickels to rub together ?

As responsible consumers you have to try to get the price to the minimum. Don't believe me ? Go try and buy a house.

I personally know 2 east coast shops, both owned and run by riders and savvy businessmen, who have had to close. Both sold snowboards as well over the winter in order to try and make ends meet. One of them was at the base of a ski area...He was forced to close as the bike season killed the bottom line.

So yes, I do know bike shop owners that do not have 2 nickels to rub together.

My question: Why are MTBers in general (not pointing fingers) so frikkin greedy? You wouldnt see this sort of thing in the moto world. Now would you see the "it broke, warranty it free" attitude MTBers have.

 

[bmxr]

Yet again, boo-hoo...the poor LBS's. We owe it to them to keep them in business no matter what. Yeah, right.

Personally, I don't care about reading wholesale prices on the internet. I can get those any time I want and I'd bet most of the rest of you could, too. They don't influence my purchase either way.

As for the Fox stuff, I wish I knew how much it was going to cost, but I probably won't be in the market anyway. From what we've read in this post, it'll be way out my league, $$$-wise. I will be keeping my 02 Monster for now

 

[Kornphlake]

Here is what I don't get: (a bit of maybe too honest observation to follow)

I hear a lot of discussion about pricing, the LBS, & online shops. I guess some points are valid...

That being said, my buddy owns a shop and lets just say he isn't exactly hurting. The shop down the street from me, same thing. Both guys have real nice houses, nice cars... And, I think that is good thing to a point. I wish everyone to do well financially in life. But, the markup judging by these guys is obviously excessive.

Like many riders I bust my A$$ at work. Manual labor, nights, holidays, weekends, you name it... So, when I hear this pricing/ cat fight stuff I just shrug my shoulders. It gets a little silly. Because, you ever see a shop owner w/o two nickels to rub together ?

As responsible consumers you have to try to get the price to the minimum. Don't believe me ? Go try and buy a house.

Both of the LBS' in my town closed in the last 6 months, when one went I thought good riddance, they were retards that didn't deserve to be making money off of people desparate for parts so they could ride the next weekend. When the other closed I was a little dissapointed, although the guy never had anything in stock, he acted like he really wanted to go out of his way to order stuff for me. He was straight up with pricing and offered me deals before I acted like MSRP was too much (which may be why he went out of business, rumor is that he just got sick of So Cal though.)

Anyway the point I wanted to make is, if shop owners drive nice cars and have nice homes it's likely that they are taking profit from the business and using it to pay thier own salry, if they've got a nice store front and it seems like they are just scraping by it's probablly because the owner is getting a very small percentage of the profit and alot of the money goes back into the business, unless of course the shop is one of these mega stores owned by a corporate conglomerate then the workers are getting the shaft and some investors on wall street are making a ton. Which leads me to my next gripe, if shops like performance don't really see their own profit directly why are shop managers and general sales people so unwilling to make deals, except on items with advetised specials that aren't marked on the product playing off of customer's ignorance? Of all the shops I've ever been in, Performance (keep in mind I've only been in two performance shops, I'm sure they're not all this way,) has the most uneducated sales people, the most unreasonable prices and the most limited selection and forget about getting anything special ordered with an expectation of recieving it within the next month.

 

[Kornphlake]

There are plenty of people who try and get wholesale pricing from shops, they are people who lurk around in forums trying to find who has the absolute lowest price on every single item that's going on their bike. It takes them six months to piece their bike together, and it usually requires extensive mods and wrench time to get it running (as far as pure DH bikes go). These people are the reason why there shouldn't be wholesale pricing available to the general public anywhere. I know this is a few bad apples/whole bunch thing, but from an inside perspective, sometimes those few bad apples do come pretty close to making a retailer want to drop a line entirely because somebody thought shops make too much money.

It's funny to hear you griping here. Of all bicycle retailers you've gotten more money out of me than any other in the last several years (keep in mind I buy a lot of used parts.) Go-Ride has consistantly been the shop with the lowest prices, with the merchandise I want, in stock. Having a knowledgeable staff makes it easier to plunk down what may be 50% above cost for all I know. I'm sure guys come in and try to do the Tiajuana style bartering thing, but guys like me come in and pay full retail, or your advertised sale price. I don't like to haggle over a price, I'm not good at it, the mexicans love me for it, and I know I'm not alone.

 

[stinky|Dan]

thank god i'm visiting the USA this January, might have to pick myself up a late Christmas present instead of buying the FOX at home in OZ.

 

[frorider]

all the arguments against posting wholesale prices are disturbingly similar to the arguments that automobile dealers use when they complain about the organizations that simply post 'wholesale' for the new car you are about to buy. I say 'wholesale' in quotation marks because anyone savvy knows that actual wholesale price paid is a function of many factors.

anyway, thanks to the information highway called the internet, buying a new car has become much less of a hassle. the dealer isn't playing stupid azz games 'hiding' the wholesale; you know that he needs to make a profit, and as a customer you now have a pretty good sense of how much profit he'/she is making.

buying a 30 dollar pair of jeans? i don't really care to research what the wholesale price is. buying a 30K car or a 5k bike? sure, in those situations it's nice to know approx. what the retailer paid for it. Anybody who expects a car dealer to sell a car at zero profit is an idiot. I never expect bike retailers to make zero profit.

If Superblow is distorting the pricing structure of the industry by doing bulk buys, then other shops need to have a word with Marzocchi or whomever and say Hey, please limit your deep bulk discounts to Superblow...or Hey, we are 3 independent shops and we'd all like to do a bulk buy together.

at the end of the day it's all about service. I'd gladly buy a fork from go-ride, even if it was somewhat more than superblow, since i know they'd sort out warranty issues much better than superblow. plus they'd ship it on time, as promised. :love:

Economists have analyzed the bike industry, and guess what: there are too many bike shops for the size of the market. That means that some shops will be going out of business. Evolve or die. The successful shops I know have a) a large local clientele b) at least a medium sized internet business.

hrug:

Capitalism is a bitch. The history of economics is filled with examples of industries that relied on keeping the customer in the dark...and the industry collapsed when someone turned the lights on.

 

[azonicbruce]

stuff

Amen, brotha'!

 

[Jm_]

I should get a flipping award and a silver star for today.

I charged a guy $6 over our BTI invoice for goodridge lines that cost our shop quite a bit of money to order. We had originally ordered grimecas but BTI informed us that the supplier no longer was supplying and that goodridge was the only option. Unfortunatly, goodridge is about twice as expensive as anything else out there, so the price would have been rediculous after the bike shop markup. You could have probably gotten an avid disc brake caliper for what these lines would have cost. We only charged him $6 over invoice because it was WAY more expensive than he and we were first expecting.

I don't have any problem with anyone posting wholesale prices, I won't do it personally, but when your paying a 200% markup (which is fairly normal for many items at a bike shop), I think the customer deserves some slack here. It's not like the dealer invoice for a car is half of what is advertised.

 

[azonicbruce]

I should get a flipping award and a silver star for today.

Will this do?

j/k

 

[Jm_]

Will this do?

j/k

sure...actually I should get some marz posters since certain things came up that prevented me from going to I-bike.

 

[Andy_B]

I should get a flipping award and a silver star for today.

I charged a guy $6 over our BTI invoice for goodridge lines that cost our shop quite a bit of money to order. We had originally ordered grimecas but BTI informed us that the supplier no longer was supplying and that goodridge was the only option. Unfortunatly, goodridge is about twice as expensive as anything else out there, so the price would have been rediculous after the bike shop markup. You could have probably gotten an avid disc brake caliper for what these lines would have cost. We only charged him $6 over invoice because it was WAY more expensive than he and we were first expecting.

I don't have any problem with anyone posting wholesale prices, I won't do it personally, but when your paying a 200% markup (which is fairly normal for many items at a bike shop), I think the customer deserves some slack here. It's not like the dealer invoice for a car is half of what is advertised.

Thats just GOOD customer service...

Im not saying that you had him pay for the org. parts up front....but if you did and you were not able to get them... then you should eat the differnce.

So its ok to tell people approx. WHSL priced basied on a the MSRP of another product....

 

[James | Go-Ride]

It's funny to hear you griping here. Of all bicycle retailers you've gotten more money out of me than any other in the last several years (keep in mind I buy a lot of used parts.) Go-Ride has consistantly been the shop with the lowest prices, with the merchandise I want, in stock. Having a knowledgeable staff makes it easier to plunk down what may be 50% above cost for all I know. I'm sure guys come in and try to do the Tiajuana style bartering thing, but guys like me come in and pay full retail, or your advertised sale price. I don't like to haggle over a price, I'm not good at it, the mexicans love me for it, and I know I'm not alone.

Was I griping? In all seriousness, I can only think of a few customers or incidents (seriously, I can think of one guy by name and a few other isolated times) where I've been ticked by somebody looking for beyond-reasonable pricing. The good thing about working for a high-end oriented shop (and I'd imagine the guys at other shops like ours) is that most of our customers are pretty cool and knowledgeable, so it's fun to get bikes and racing seasons together for people. I guess the initial wholesale thing just pushed some of my buttons. Sorry if it sounds like I'm just here to complain, that wasn't my intent at all. Just trying to offer an inside perspective on the issue, I guess I let it get a little out of hand in retrospect.

 

[DH Dad]

Does any of this really matter? When it comes to bike parts it's all about supply and demand no matter what the wholesale price is. A year ago, 2003 forks were flooded on the market, the supply was too high, and as a result Sep-Nov of 2003 fork deals were everywhere on almost every model. Industry smartened up and for 2004, the supply of the "higher" end forks was not greater than demand hence Starting the beginning of August you couldn't find a Sherman Firefly at all and Z1's for 2004 model are still at retail price. This preserves the price very well for the product and allows it to sell at or just below retail all season. Wholesale matters very little, what matters is where I can get the best price. I don't mind paying double wholesale if it's still the best deal I can get as a non-sponsored rider, the people who take 6 months to put together this awesomely cheap bike but get "wholesale" prices in my mind are the ones that lose out since they're constantly searching and surfing for those deals while I'm out riding. Time costs money and I figure the additional time wasted searching for these deals costs more than the savings in the end.

Anyways, I seriously doubt any shop or online retailer is going to get rich from selling these new Fox DH forks. The demand for DH supply just aint strong enough and definately not at that level. To get rich in the bike industry you've got to sell volume, that's why Pacific was able to buy Schwinn and GT, not because their product was better. People like Go-Ride do this because the love it not because they think they expect to retire at 35 from their massive profits. I don't mind giving money anytime of the year to Go-Ride, they're good people and have good products at good prices.