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Bar sweep vs. roll

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
997
973
So in the latest Vital "Let's Go Racing" video, Bryan goes into kind of a rabbit hole on comparing various bar sweeps (and stem lengths, but that's a different issue). He was basically comparing everything against a OneUp (8 degrees back), and all the other ones he did as 31.8mm alloy (to try and keep the compliance good). He mentioned he's long had issues with one wrist. I've had an issue with the right wrist also, I think stemming from the outer arm bone pointing a little bit up and out compared to the left. On any longer descent, I always end up with discomfort on the outer part of the right wrist. This has always been an issue for me across multiple bikes, suspension setups, grips, etc. Some settings aggravate it more or less but none really address it, and to my knowledge, I've never really messed with bar sweep.

In the video he mentioned that less sweep (vs. the typical 8), like Renthal uses (7) felt like it put him in a more aggressive elbows out stance but it felt worse on his wrist. My buddy who BMXs a fair amount said that for BMX he found a bar with less sweep helped him pump more aggressively. Then there's a handful of bars with slightly more sweep (9), PNW with 10, then kooky SQLab with 12 and 16. Bryan mentioned that both the Nukeproof (9) and the PNW (10) felt better on his bum wrist. I have played around holding myself in a plank position, adjusting my hands so that they're set more like a less sweep, and like a more sweep, and the bad wrist feels better in a "more sweep" position. So I am starting to think that it might be worth to try a bar with more sweep.

But I was also thinking, isn't the issue fundamentally the location of the end of the grip relative to the butt of my palm? Like, if I had to guess, I'd guess my normal bar setup ends up putting a lot of pressure on the ends of my hands, which would really exacerbate any outer wrist issues. And besides messing with sweep, a more obvious solution would be to mess with bar roll: like if I increased roll back, it would rotate the end of the grip slightly down and relieve some of that pressure. I normally set bar roll until it feels like the grips are level. I've briefly messed with a few degrees more rollback and it felt really weird, like the ends of the bar were drooping down, and it felt harder to lean the bike over more aggressively. FWIW, on the OneUp bar, my normal setup puts the middle of the top stem clamp lined up more or less with the little tick mark corresponding to my head angle.

So my question to the internet experts: for the sort of issue I'm describing, is bar roll or bar sweep more likely to be the ticket?

If I should try different back sweeps, how should I set up the comparison so that it gives me the most accurate comparison? Obviously I should cut them to the same length, and try to adjust spacers to end up with the same bar distance from the ground (to account for different rises). And same stem length, at least to start. The cheapest test would be to grab a PNW bar in 35mm for $70 and try that. But my concern is going to an aluminum 35mm round bar vs. might be harsher than my current carbon OneUp 35mm oval bar, and might hide any of the comfort changes related to the 2 degree sweep difference.
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,001
1,693
Northern California
Best thing to do is test both ends of the spectrum. Everyone's body is different, especially as we age/accumulate injuries. For me both hurt different parts of my hands :sarcastic:, so I go with less sweep since I feel it gives me more direct control of the front end.
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
997
973
Best thing to do is test both ends of the spectrum. Everyone's body is different, especially as we age/accumulate injuries. For me both hurt different parts of my hands :sarcastic:, so I go with less sweep since I feel it gives me more direct control of the front end.
Yeah, I was kinda thinking that it makes sense to try both something with much more sweep (PNW?) and maybe less (Renthal). And just suck it up and buy a new 31.8 stem to run with both, because I've heard the 35mm Renthals are crazy stiff. Worst case if I don't like it, I can throw the Renthal setup with the stem on my DJ.

Which "less sweep" bar do you use, Renthal? Or does someone else make a 7 degree?
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,001
1,693
Northern California
Which "less sweep" bar do you use, Renthal? Or does someone else make a 7 degree?
I use Renthal, 7 degrees and it comes in 10mm increments. I do wish they made a 50mm, as I have one bike where that would be ideal. I also have a low rise Giant bar that's 5 degrees, but it's not on a bike right now.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,006
Seattle
Less sweep (Renthal) works better for my wrists, and I also roll them pretty far forward. More backsweep puts more pressure on the outer part of my wrists, and hurts. If you're feeling the same I some combination of rolling your bars forward and/or less sweep is likely to help.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,538
5,470
UK
That vital video was pretty awful.
Especially his conclusion = "I'd like to try a 1mm shorter stem."

Bottom line here is no one off the Internet can tell you what's going to work best for you. And as already mentioned trial and error will tell you far more.
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,630
5,444
What width do you run? That may be some of the issue if you have gone too wide for your shoulder width.
My right hand goes numb pretty quickly so I just run what feels the fastest to me in the fun bits and that is still 5 back 5 up, I'm a fatty so I like stiffer handlebars, had a super flexy 9deg Tune 35mm bar and it didn't help with numbness at all.
I have broken both collarbones, one went forward and one went backward so my reach is different left to right.
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
997
973
Less sweep (Renthal) works better for my wrists, and I also roll them pretty far forward. More backsweep puts more pressure on the outer part of my wrists, and hurts. If you're feeling the same I some combination of rolling your bars forward and/or less sweep is likely to help.
Makes sense, thanks. Since the OneUp bars are a little bit less sweep (8) than the normal 9, I'll try rolling forward a bit. Then maybe try a Renthal cut to the same width as the OneUp.

What width do you run? That may be some of the issue if you have gone too wide for your shoulder width.
My right hand goes numb pretty quickly so I just run what feels the fastest to me in the fun bits and that is still 5 back 5 up, I'm a fatty so I like stiffer handlebars, had a super flexy 9deg Tune 35mm bar and it didn't help with numbness at all.
I have broken both collarbones, one went forward and one went backward so my reach is different left to right.
I'm 5'8" with a 0cm ape index last I measured, running 760 bars. 780 is def too wide, 750 too narrow.
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
Planks are pretty useless to experiment with hand positions because the wrist is in full flexion. If you rode like that, the heel of your hand would be pointing towards the ground. Most people gravitate to that angle a tiny bit, but that's correctable with some attention and puts your elbows at a different angle too.

Get some dumbells with hex ends to put on the ground and play with different angles to learn where you end up with pressure points and what your "neutral" wrist rotation angle and bar width needs to be. Everyone is different and there are a few things going on there. That's the fastest way to do some basic trial and error though.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,538
5,470
UK
Discussing ape index is also pretty pointless as it doesn't take shoulder width into account.
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,907
1,252
SWE
Up and back sweep on paper will yield something else on the bike depending on how much you roll your bar. It makes all the comparison with someone else quite difficult.

By the way, I still have a NOS xc handlebar from the late nineties: 56cm wide, no rise and no sweep :rofl:
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,538
5,470
UK
Summary: Short chubby middle aged pumptrack and flow trail rider blames handlebar sweep for shoulder weakness?
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
997
973
Well, thanks to the suggestions here, I rolled my bar forward a couple degrees and wrist pain went away. I rode a full day at Northstar last weekend with no hand or wrist pain.

Now I just need to try a few different grips to find something that helps keep my hands from slipping inboard and rotating downward as my hands get tired and grip strength weakens later in the day. I was using OneUp grips that weekend and the little flanges don't help the thumb. I'm thinking something with a half waffle like ODI Elite Pros will be the ticket.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,538
5,470
UK
This thread'll do...
Anybody notice they prefer narrower bars or a different sweep now they're riding a much longer bike than previously?
was daydreaming on my ride home last night and realised with much longer to reach to the bars on modern bikes your elbow's won't be anywhere near as bent as on the shorter bikes I ride.
 

Cerberus75

Monkey
Feb 18, 2017
520
194
This thread'll do...
Anybody notice they prefer narrower bars or a different sweep now they're riding a much longer bike than previously?
was daydreaming on my ride home last night and realised with much longer to reach to the bars on modern bikes your elbow's won't be anywhere near as bent as on the shorter bikes I ride.
I used to ride 780-790 bars. Now 750-760 is the sweet spot.
 

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
2,287
854
coloRADo
The last 3 handlebars I've purchased are Spank Spike 800 Vibricore (cut down to 780). 4* up 8* back. And roll them so they are vertical. Lots of bro's I know do parallel to the fork. I think there are some others that roll even more back than that. My hands/arms cramp up if I do that. So I just stick to "vertical" roll.

I recently got me a Commencal TR ebike. But their XL (which is what I'd normally get) was a bit big, and it's a heavy ass big ebike. So I got an L, but increased stem to 60mm and bar to 50mm high. And it's pretty freakin sweet!
 

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
2,287
854
coloRADo
I used to ride 780-790 bars. Now 750-760 is the sweet spot.
How tall are you?

Just curious. I'm 6'3", so in theory a wide bar would suit me, but technically I prefer to cut it down, if for nothing else, ability to wiggle between tight trees :) But really I think my neck prefers a narrower handlebar. Yes, I have neck issues. It's all connected...
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,001
1,693
Northern California
I find it's highly dependent on the bike/setup. I tend to test a lot of different geo configs on my bikes w/ offset bushings, anglesets, bar heights, stem lengths plus any geo adjustment chips a bike has (I probably should screw around with geometry less as it can make going between 3 bikes a constant relearning process, but I enjoy finding new winning combos). I've found as bikes have generally gotten longer I've preferred wider bars. All my bikes are running 800s, but I shift my hands in on some setup combos and out in others.
 

Cerberus75

Monkey
Feb 18, 2017
520
194
How tall are you?

Just curious. I'm 6'3", so in theory a wide bar would suit me, but technically I prefer to cut it down, if for nothing else, ability to wiggle between tight trees :) But really I think my neck prefers a narrower handlebar. Yes, I have neck issues. It's all connected...
I'm 5'6" I have very wide shoulders. If I keep the bars at the same hight but narrower my neck is less bent during the ride. I've definitely clipped less trees going narrower.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,538
5,470
UK
I probably should screw around with geometry less as it can make going between 3 bikes a constant relearning process,
I honestly don't see the point in owning multiple bikes if they're not particualrly different from each other.
and that should also mean they're set up slightly differently too.
I have 8 bikes just now and each one is completely different. I like swapping between them as it keeps riding interesting.
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
997
973
I don't know if it's due to having longer reach, or just having a better bike setup, but I run 760mm bars now on modern bikes with a ~450mm reach & 40mm stem. I used to run 800mm bars on 415mm reach & 50mm stem. I've tried 50mm and 45mm stems on the modern bike and they feel awful to me. Any time I run wider bars, my hands choke up naturally to the 760mm point.

Also, getting back to my original question, after I sorted out the bar roll, I tried a set of Ergon GE1 Slim grips. The way they're tapered, they effectively make the bar sweep a tiny bit less. They've also got a little wedge on the bottom/inside that you rest your thumb against. I find the combination of those 2 features makes my wrists stay straighter and elbows stay up/out a bit better, sort of like what people report on bars with less sweep.
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,001
1,693
Northern California
I honestly don't see the point in owning multiple bikes if they're not particualrly different from each other.
and that should also mean they're set up slightly differently too.
I have 8 bikes just now and each one is completely different. I like swapping between them as it keeps riding interesting.
I have a trail bike, a long travel enduro bike and a DH bike. I'll set them up however they feel/handle best.
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
20,192
19,158
Canaderp
This thread'll do...
Anybody notice they prefer narrower bars or a different sweep now they're riding a much longer bike than previously?
Not really because of a longer bike, just because they feel good. I'm good with 760-770mm bars.

It's a good balance of comfort, stability, control ability and they still sorta....kinda fit down the many narrow twisty trails here.

I had 780 or 800mm bars...once. Rode them for a while and always said to myself, yep, I need to cut them down. Nature beat me to it, a vine or branch on the side of the trail grabbed them and sent me sailing into the dirt, separating my shoulder badly. I have always blamed that one on those stupidly wide bars, never again.
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,479
4,720
Australia
Yeah I think I used to run 800mm bars for a long time just to compensate for the shortness of my old bikes. I'm at 780/770ish now and could probably go slightly narrower.
 

marshalolson

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2006
1,770
519
Yeah I think I used to run 800mm bars for a long time just to compensate for the shortness of my old bikes. I'm at 780/770ish now and could probably go slightly narrower.
Same. My current gen bikes are all about 35mm longer than the stuff I was riding 5-7 years ago. Running 20mm narrower bars now.
 

madpharma

Chimp
Oct 16, 2018
52
33
This thread'll do...
Anybody notice they prefer narrower bars or a different sweep now they're riding a much longer bike than previously?
was daydreaming on my ride home last night and realised with much longer to reach to the bars on modern bikes your elbow's won't be anywhere near as bent as on the shorter bikes I ride.
Yes, on the dh bike, went from a 417 reach 800 bar wich felt normal, to a 460 reach that with the same 800 bars felt like my elbows were "not bent enough" or "out" as before. Shortly I started having shoulder pain. Decided to cut to 785 and felt better, tried 775 and even better.
Im 178-79 cm tall btw
 

mykel

closer to Periwinkle
Apr 19, 2013
5,071
3,780
sw ontario canada
DH bike - Reach 432, Bars 800mm Spank, rolled vertical.
Trail bike - Reach 477, Bars 780mm Syntace rolled a bit back from vertical.

Height 6'2" / 188cm
Wingspan 6'4" / 193cm

I could maybe(?) lose a few mm on the trail bike. Pretty comfy other than somebody planted a lot of the trees a bit too close together. :busted: It might be worth getting some old lock-ons out and try some narrower positions.
Even though I still feel the bar width is fine, I now find the DH bike short / small feeling until I'm acclimated which takes a run or two. I seem to end up over the front end a bit more than I feel I should be. :panic: Not had an ejection, but gotten close. :eek:
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
997
973
I still was curious about how less sweep would feel, so recently picked up a Renthal to try. I got the 35 Lite Carbon specifically because it comes at 760 width, and I'm assuming that when the layup is designed around for flex, it's designed for the sold length. Like, a bar designed to be 760 will have better flex at that width than a bar designed to be 800 cut down to 760. There was a Downtime Podcast interview with Jesse Melamed earlier this year where explained that the mystery (taped over logo) bar he was using last season was an old Easton because it was designed to be his preferred width. Anyways...

I did 1 gentle ride (recovering from injury) with the Renthal, and the sweep change is really subtle but I'm liking it. It feels like it opens up my chest/elbows more, and puts me in a stronger position. Kind of like going from a really narrow to a normal width bar, except I confirmed the bar width is exactly the same as the OneUps I was coming off of. That's just first impressions and I'll need to get some more ride time in once I'm healed to see if I miss the flex of the OneUp, but I'm definitely liking the 7* sweep.

Also, WTF is up with the alignment marks on Renthals? The 0 mark is definitely not top center, and it wouldn't make sense for their Apex stem either. As far as I can tell, the midpoint (2.5) of the 0-5 range is top center. Fucking British lol...
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
997
973
Renthal mtb parts on the whole aren't great.
they're fucking English BTW
Potayto potahto
I'd have tried any other brand that made a 7* sweep 40mm rise bar, but apparently that's not a thing. I hate the gold and their logos, but whatever.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,538
5,470
UK
I'm fairly sure I remember quite a few riser bars BIT(25.4")Ds having 7deg backsweep but very few folk worried about such things back then. I reckon so long as you spend time fine-tuning your bar height, bar roll (in the stem) and positioning your controls anything from 7-9deg should feel ok unless your bike is too long for you or you have some sort of restrictive injury/condition/weakness.

One bike of mine actually has a 760mm Renthal fatbar BTW. It's a short travel FS 26" DJ/slope bike. so super short (reach & wheelbase) too. It doesn't get ridden very much anymore but when it does it takes 2 minutes of riding to adjust to the difference from the 9deg (780mm) bars my most ridden mtbs have. (another has 8deg).

Anyway. happy you're happy.
 
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