[Silver]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/02/27/MNQI166PAV.DTL&tsp=1

So, basically, you can't challenge the wiretap because you can't prove you were wiretapped because you were wiretapped secretly (and we sent you a document saying that...)

You can't sue the government for illegal secret surveillance, because you can't prove you were wiretapped because it is secret.

Hmm....

 

[stevew]

i has a secret....

 

[$tinkle]

secretly, i love obama's foreign policy, a.k.a. the bush doctrine

 

[Secret Squirrel]

secretly, i love obama's foreign policy, a.k.a. the bush doctrine

Specifically, in what respect?

 

[1453]

to be fair on the wire tapping thing BHO is only following example of GWB, who was following example of W. Jefferson Clinton. I don't see why anyone should be surprised at his policies.

 

[reflux]

to be fair on the wire tapping thing BHO is only following example of GWB, who was following example of W. Jefferson Clinton.

To beat a dead horse and to copy the above comment, in what respect?

 

[$tinkle]

ffs, SS was palinating me

 

[Defenestrated]

land of the free(ly wire tapped)

 

[1453]

To beat a dead horse and to copy the above comment, in what respect?

warrantless wiretapping isn't a Republican exclusive.

 

[reflux]

warrantless wiretapping isn't a Republican exclusive.

Link? My understanding was that Bush was the first to circumvent the "secret" court for approving wiretaps.

 

[kidwoo]

warrantless wiretapping isn't a Republican exclusive.

Definte 'warrantless' in the context of the past 3 presidents seeking the procedure.

 

[1453]

Link? My understanding was that Bush was the first to circumvent the "secret" court for approving wiretaps.

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-12949.htm

unfortunately I don't have classified information how who was wiretapped and when.

Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) of the Act, the
Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a
court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of
up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications
required by that section.

Sec. 2. Pursuant to section 302(b) of the Act, the Attorney
General is authorized to approve applications to the Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Court under section 303 of the Act to obtain
orders for physical searches for the purpose of collecting foreign
intelligence information.

Definte 'warrantless' in the context of the past 3 presidents seeking the procedure.

without a court order? the AG is not the member of a judicial court AFAIK.

 

[kidwoo]

without a court order? the AG is not the member of a judicial court AFAIK.

Okay, we're doin' good.

And that code you quoted has something important in it.

Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) of the Act, the
Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a
court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of
up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications
required by that section.

This is contained in "that section"

(ii) there is no substantial likelihood that the physical search will involve the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person;

Now you remember what all the hubabaloo was about?

Clinton was after the ability to circumvent FISA....sure. But what he signed had something in it that his successor didn't want to adhere to.

So saying they did the same thing isn't entirely accurate.

 

[ohio]

I wish I were mopre up to date on the latest internet lingo, but I'm not, so "pwn3d" will have to do.

PWN3D!!!11!!!!one!

 

[1453]

Okay, we're doin' good.

And that code you quoted has something important in it.




This is contained in "that section"





Now you remember what all the hubabaloo was about?

Clinton was after the ability to circumvent FISA....sure. But what he signed had something in it that his successor didn't want to adhere to.

So saying they did the same thing isn't entirely accurate.

okay, lets look at the definition of a "United States person".

http://www.fas.org/irp/nsa/standards.html

1 "United States person" means a citizen of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence (as defined in section 101(a)(20) of the Immigration and Nationality Act), an unincorporated association a substantial number of members of which are citizens of the United States or aliens lawfully admitted for permanent residence, or a corporation which is incorporated in the United States, but does not include a corporation or an associated which is a foreign power, as defined in 50 U.S.C. §1801(a)(1), (2), or (3). See 50 U.S.C. §1801(i).

thus, by that definition, persons who are physically in the United States on visiting, student, working, and travel visas, as well as those who are lawfully residing the United States awaiting permanent residence status are not extended that protection, and searches conducted on those groups will not have to adhere to "that section" and the AG would be perfectly within the scope of the law to authorize such a search.

in case you or Ohio were wondering, INA section 101(a)(20) says:

101(a)(20) The term "lawfully admitted for permanent residence" means the status of having been lawfully accorded the privilege of residing permanently in the United States as an immigrant in accordance with the immigration laws, such status not having changed.

so the number of people who are not "United States persons" in the United States is actually quite high, most likely in the tens of millions.

 

[kidwoo]

My point flew by so far over your head your hair didn't even move.

 

[1453]

didn't bother to look up the pesky little definitions and small prints eh?

Oh well, RM is all about W sucks so back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[kidwoo]

didn't bother to look up the pesky little definitions and small prints eh?

Get the shlt outcha ears boy.

Your point was that what bush caught flak for was the exact same thing his predecessors did.

It is EXACLTLY in the pesky little definitions that I pointed out where the divergence is.

It's not my fault you think defining citizenship proves your point. So come out of left field for a bit and I'll spell it out for you:

The last adminstration circumvented FISA for the purpose of monitoring citizens. That's not what clinton was after and that's why he willingly signed that little tidbit you quoted earlier.

 

[ohio]

It is EXACLTLY in the pesky little definitions that I pointed out where the divergence is.

To be fair the divergence is only over the rights of ~300 million citizens and legal residents. Miniscule, really.

 

[Defenestrated]

As long as there is an "enemy" to fear the unwashed middle American horde will never abandon its sense of complacency.

 

[Silver]

Oh well, RM is all about W sucks so back to your regularly scheduled program.

Which is why I started the thread, of course...