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Barel rode a production bike?

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by davet, Feb 8, 2008.

  1. davet

    davet Monkey

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    There's some contraversy on another forum about the bike Barel rode. Some (myself included) have heard/read that the bike he rode was much different than what is sold on the showroom floor, where others are saying it's identical other than a few minor weight saving mods.

    There seems to be quite a few people on here with some inside info that don't just regurgitate the standard press release, so does anyone know the straight scoop?
     
    #1 -   Feb 8, 2008

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  2. klunky

    klunky Turbo Monkey

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    Dirt did a masive article on it. Basically Fabiens bike was about as close to stock as a Honda F1 car is to a Honda Civic.
     
    #2 -   Feb 8, 2008
  3. stiksandstones

    stiksandstones Turbo Monkey

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    Isn't a multi million dollar race car anology way off base to a thing that uses a couple aluminum tubes? (A bike). What is the most that could be different with a 'pros' bike, Geo and 'maybe' a higher grade aluminum.
     
    #3 -   Feb 8, 2008
  4. xy9ine

    xy9ine Turbo Monkey

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    i dunno. check out the numbers on the latest stab; slack & slammed (in the low setting). there may have been subtle tweaks, but it doesn't look too far off from the geo he's rumored to have been riding.
     
    #4 -   Feb 8, 2008
  5. Kevin

    Kevin Turbo Monkey

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    The one he rode in 06 had different custom CNCd links and was different then the production bike.
    The bike he rode in 07 is pretty much the new stock Kona.
    Even the fork on his World Cup bike didnt have any spectaculair tuning like BOS internals...
     
    #5 -   Feb 8, 2008
  6. KavuRider

    KavuRider Turbo Monkey

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    I don't see how much more "custom" it could be.
     
    #6 -   Feb 8, 2008
  7. al-irl

    al-irl Turbo Monkey

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    the current bike is very similar to the stab barrell used. As for what he was riding when he first started riding for kona it was very different from stock. Custom linkages and a modded shock mount on the frame all done by Fabien and his mechanic to alter a stock frame. Isn't that why Kona paid him for afterall a bit of R&D. So the current stab should be pretty much on the money as far as what he was ridding bar maybe a different shock or different 888 internals
     
    #7 -   Feb 8, 2008
  8. Hougham

    Hougham Monkey

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    what are your trying to say there? :disgust:
     
    #8 -   Feb 8, 2008
  9. SteezyWeezy

    SteezyWeezy Turbo Monkey

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    he made the stab what it is today, so im assuming he had a custom frame
     
    #9 -   Feb 8, 2008
  10. Lollapalooza

    Lollapalooza Monkey

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    I know for a while he was on a bike with 6" of travel, a BB height somewhere in the 12's, a 60 degree HA, and a floater that induced more squat.
     
  11. KevinR86

    KevinR86 Chimp

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    I saw a video, on i think mtbcut.com that was showing fabiens bike. They said that it had non production geos, but that was for last year.
     
  12. P.T.W

    P.T.W Monkey

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    As far as i know Fabians bikes where allways used as a basis for the following years production frames.So as far as geo etc id say that they where pretty close minus a few personal tweeks.
    AS for forks an shocks they where not even close to production items
     
  13. DBR X6 RIDER

    DBR X6 RIDER Turbo Monkey

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    I would be willing to bet that the only bike that was remotely close to stock over the last few World Cup seasons was the RN01.
     
  14. Dogboy

    Dogboy Turbo Monkey

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    This is a very confusing statement.:twitch:
     
  15. sriracha

    sriracha Monkey

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    aren't the V10's raced by the syndicate stock frames?
     
  16. DBR X6 RIDER

    DBR X6 RIDER Turbo Monkey

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    It was harder to type than it was to read...I think.
     
  17. EB-Mitchell

    EB-Mitchell Chimp

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    I thought on one of the bikes he just flipped the linkage plates and that made it slacker and lower
     
  18. Mc.Dub

    Mc.Dub Monkey

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    I don't know about you guys but I don't really expect bikes at a WC level to be anything close to totally stock. They're pretty specific machines, not really in tune with F1 vs a regular car. Maybe something closer to DTM vs a normal car. They look similar but when you get down to it they're purpose built race bikes.

    There are always exceptions to the rule though.
     
  19. FrontRangeDH

    FrontRangeDH Monkey

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    The specs concerning Barels bike from what I was told was about an 11" BB and 61 degree headangle. That was from Worlds a few years ago. Doubt he rode a stock frame.

    I think the stock and Syndicate frames are similar or even the same, but the Syndicate generally has the newest, latest, and greatest proto stuff that will eventually come out on the next V10 as Santa Cruz is continually updating and upgrading
     
  20. stinky6

    stinky6 Monkey

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    I remember that the Dirt article where they talked about his bike. It was stock, but very tweaked. I believe they said that Kona didn't have the money to make 10+ frames a year for him when he decided to tweak the geometry or whatever. So things ended up being a little odd on his bike. I'm pretty sure that the one that was really slack and low was for a specific course: they put a shorter stroke shock on or flipped the links until the one angle was what he wanted and then the other was what seems way out of wack. Through the years the frame got refined to what it is now. The floating brake that did the opposite was to make both the front and back end go down equally when on the brakes, giving the bike a more balanced feel.
     
  21. FrontRangeDH

    FrontRangeDH Monkey

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    I think it was a single frame for a specific course. He really wanted a specific BB headangle and the low bb was a consequence. Probably shorter shock or flipped links
     
  22. vitox

    vitox Turbo Monkey

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    yep, the bike i saw right after he won in les gets, was what looked to be a stock frame with a custom stroke/length combination and a new shock mount drilled. not more than any competent suspension tuner and mechanic can do on lots of bikes esp single pivots or walking beam bikes.
     
  23. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Not really, given that there are much less aspects you can actually change on a bike. Geometry is probably the most significant component, your post suggests otherwise. Different geometry makes for significant performance differences, as does suspension setup... so I think the given analogy was at least reasonable, and at the very least didn't really need contradicting. :)
     
  24. stiksandstones

    stiksandstones Turbo Monkey

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    That was way more than my brain can handle...but I 'think' you do not agree with my post, let me try to put it simply.
    How about this....

    If Joe Biker goes and buys a stock bike, he could actually make it just like a pros bike with little money and little time-case in point, in 2002 I needed to make some custom race frames for GT as there were no more 'custom' bikes being made, so I bought some tubing and $1500 later (and 6 days-with paint) I had 3 i-drive custom frames for brian lopes.

    Now lets say you own a honda accord, hell, say you own an NSX...I can guarantee it will take you longer than 6 days and cost more than $1500 to have the same F1 car Jenson Button drives.
     
  25. toodles

    toodles Turbo Monkey

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    That's great man... :disgust:

    Udi is comparing apples to apples. The price and complexity of a Formula One car doesn't contribute to the fact that it is different to the NSX.

    What Udi is say is that geo and suspension are the biggest part of any DH frame. To run custom geo and suspension means the bike is realistically a new breed. The only similarity between the Barel bike and the production bike is the name on the downtube sticker.

    Bringing cost into it? Lame. No one ever implied that and you're an idiot if you believe that's what was suggested.
     
  26. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Toodles beat me to it, but you can't compare cost of cars and bikes directly like that for obvious reasons, and I think you'd find that klunky was making the comparison based on performance differences rather than cost. He was just trying to say that the bike being raced would have performed very differently to the production item available at the time (obviously it's getting closer to fabien-geo now).

    I think you'll also find that most people don't have the time/resources/skill to obtain tubing and weld up their own frame, which makes that case relatively irrelevant. Swapping shocks out and flipping/changing linkages like mentioned further above are probably more realistic examples, but often lead to some compromises being made.
     
  27. bohorec

    bohorec Monkey

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    I agree with stiksandstones. There is no way that you could race F1 with any regular car, but you can race any dh course with regular stab.
     
  28. Ian Collins

    Ian Collins Turbo Monkey

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    hahaha
     
  29. Mr Ridiculous

    Mr Ridiculous Margarita my slippers

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    I tend to agree with stiks here. I don't see how you could compare the complexity of a bicycle to that of a professional racing car. With a bike, your two main issues are suspension and geometry. You have both of those in an F1 car, with the addition of an entire combustion engine. Not to mention the role aerodynamics/fuel economy/etc. plays in such things.

    I'm not saying pro riders don't take their bikes as seriously as F1 drivers do their cars, but I don't think you can really compare the two machines.
     
  30. Mr Ridiculous

    Mr Ridiculous Margarita my slippers

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    This is another good point. A pro DH racer would still be competitive on a stock bike, but you give, say, Travis Pastrana a stock WRX and he's toast.
     
  31. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    In my eyes, that was the point of the original comparison. Think about it - if the main issues on a bike are suspension and geometry, and you change them; that's a very significant change that you've just made. In terms of things that matter to performance on a bike, the percentage you've changed by modifying geometry and suspension is significantly high. Likewise the percentage of change between normal car and F1 car is high (and to reach that percentage, obviously more things have to be changed, because in cars you naturally have more factors involved with performance as you mentioned).

    I'm sure this could go round and round in circles for a while though. :)
     
  32. toodles

    toodles Turbo Monkey

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    Holy crap.. what a bunch of tards...

    You're now actually trying to compare the complexity of a formula one car to a DH bike?

    FFS.. the point about the pros bikes being as similar to the production bikes remains... custom geo and custom suspenion = new bike. End of story. If you think a frame with the same name on the downtube but different geo and suspension is the same then you're a mouth-breathing retard... end of story.
     
  33. klunky

    klunky Turbo Monkey

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    I was just trying to emphasise that his bike was not stock. Its the internet dont take it literally!
     
  34. mtb1989

    mtb1989 Chimp

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    when it comes to these kind of races, bike manufacturers put tens of thousands of dollars to make them lighter and better. sam hills bike is just as customized and is was lighter than the stock one. it might have the same geometry but it is still 100% custom. besides the stock kona stab that is the replica of his bike would be way to heavy and would be like a tank.
     
  35. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    sam hill does ride a custom frame, but it more of a custom geo then anything else.
     
  36. Ian Collins

    Ian Collins Turbo Monkey

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    yeah, doesn't he just have the downtube from a large bike to slacken the HA, but everything else is stock medium frame parts?....i think i read that in dirt
     
  37. [Tha]Shovla

    [Tha]Shovla Monkey

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    That and they manufactured the materials from components that came out of Area 51. but i heard Sam himself came from that area
     
  38. SuspectDevice

    SuspectDevice Turbo Monkey

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    Well, obviously it's a little more than that, or the top tube wouldn't touch the headtube...
     
  39. bizutch

    bizutch Delicate CUSTOM flower

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    I agree with Stik. Even in motocross, you couldn't even order 50-60% of the parts on Chad Reed's bike if you knew the company that made the part. In F1, every single nut and bolt, fabricated sheet or tube and engine part is not in a parts catalog anywhere for public use.

    Now...that being said, if Barel were on a true "works" bike, that frame would be made out of materials unavailable to the public like Scandium or carbon nanotubes with in house proprietary fabrication techniques, his fork would have nothing in it resembling a stock shim stack and his rear shock would way less than a midgets dikk.

    DW and crew have noted on here and so have crank arm makers that pro setups , particularly BB height and head angle are pretty much useless the rest of the riders in the world. They grind bash guards and bent crank arms non stop because of their silly low BB's and unless you're going full on Mack 10 pro speed, their headtube angle will handle like a dead fish.

    Very few pros are riding drasticly lightened down bikes with full parts specs that are all prototype. Rennie himself has said he doesn't want to know what his bike weighs and hopes his is heaver than everybody elses.

    Here's a true "werks" bike to steal spelling from old Motocross Action mags:
    Carbon nanotube frame with scandium BB shell and Headtube.
    Hollow Carbon Saint prototype crankset with ceramic pedal inserts
    Cane Creek Double Barrel w/ Titanium reservoir body and bolts
    Custom Titanium spring wound to riders exact weight
    All titanium hardware bolts (bolt on grip collars & bolts, stem bolts, pivot bolts, front and rear Ti axles, Ti seatpost clamp and bolt)
    Fork with one-off castings, custom internals tuned by Showa technicians on site
    Industry nine wheels w/ custom Carbon shell body, custom turned thinner bladed spokes in a 28 spoke pattern w/ One-off DT Swiss 32mm wide tubeless rims.
    Prototype Maxxis tires w/ experimental compound
    Experimental carbon nanotube front chainring
    Full Carbon fiber E13 LG1 guide w/ Titanium hardware
    Shimano hollow pin prototype chain and cassette made from revolutionary alloy.
    Prototype Shimano 7 speed electronic rear shifter w/ wireless integrated thumb shifter


    ....this is about 1/50th the degree of custom a DH bike could get when comparing it to an F1 car. :D
     
  40. SLanD3r

    SLanD3r Chimp

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    In the end its probably just money. If there was as much money in DH as F1, DH bikes would probably have built in computers, active suspension, 100+ channel telemetry and teams would spend 40 million for a wind tunnel and have more scientists and researchers than mechanics.