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Barel rode a production bike?

davet

Monkey
Jun 24, 2004
552
3
There's some contraversy on another forum about the bike Barel rode. Some (myself included) have heard/read that the bike he rode was much different than what is sold on the showroom floor, where others are saying it's identical other than a few minor weight saving mods.

There seems to be quite a few people on here with some inside info that don't just regurgitate the standard press release, so does anyone know the straight scoop?
 

klunky

Turbo Monkey
Oct 17, 2003
1,079
6
Scotland
Dirt did a masive article on it. Basically Fabiens bike was about as close to stock as a Honda F1 car is to a Honda Civic.
 

stiksandstones

Turbo Monkey
May 21, 2002
5,081
25
Orange, Ca
Dirt did a masive article on it. Basically Fabiens bike was about as close to stock as a Honda F1 car is to a Honda Civic.
Isn't a multi million dollar race car anology way off base to a thing that uses a couple aluminum tubes? (A bike). What is the most that could be different with a 'pros' bike, Geo and 'maybe' a higher grade aluminum.
 

xy9ine

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
2,869
267
vancouver eastside
i dunno. check out the numbers on the latest stab; slack & slammed (in the low setting). there may have been subtle tweaks, but it doesn't look too far off from the geo he's rumored to have been riding.
 

Kevin

Turbo Monkey
The one he rode in 06 had different custom CNCd links and was different then the production bike.
The bike he rode in 07 is pretty much the new stock Kona.
Even the fork on his World Cup bike didnt have any spectaculair tuning like BOS internals...
 

KavuRider

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2006
2,566
3
CT
Isn't a multi million dollar race car anology way off base to a thing that uses a couple aluminum tubes? (A bike). What is the most that could be different with a 'pros' bike, Geo and 'maybe' a higher grade aluminum.
I don't see how much more "custom" it could be.
 

al-irl

Turbo Monkey
Dec 9, 2004
1,087
0
A, A
the current bike is very similar to the stab barrell used. As for what he was riding when he first started riding for kona it was very different from stock. Custom linkages and a modded shock mount on the frame all done by Fabien and his mechanic to alter a stock frame. Isn't that why Kona paid him for afterall a bit of R&D. So the current stab should be pretty much on the money as far as what he was ridding bar maybe a different shock or different 888 internals
 

Hougham

Monkey
Mar 28, 2007
375
1
Isn't a multi million dollar race car anology way off base to a thing that uses a couple aluminum tubes? (A bike). What is the most that could be different with a 'pros' bike, Geo and 'maybe' a higher grade aluminum.
what are your trying to say there? :disgust:
 

Lollapalooza

Monkey
Jan 22, 2007
527
0
I know for a while he was on a bike with 6" of travel, a BB height somewhere in the 12's, a 60 degree HA, and a floater that induced more squat.
 

P.T.W

Monkey
May 6, 2007
600
0
christchurch nz
As far as i know Fabians bikes where allways used as a basis for the following years production frames.So as far as geo etc id say that they where pretty close minus a few personal tweeks.
AS for forks an shocks they where not even close to production items
 

Mc.Dub

Monkey
Feb 28, 2007
115
0
Montreal
I don't know about you guys but I don't really expect bikes at a WC level to be anything close to totally stock. They're pretty specific machines, not really in tune with F1 vs a regular car. Maybe something closer to DTM vs a normal car. They look similar but when you get down to it they're purpose built race bikes.

There are always exceptions to the rule though.
 
The specs concerning Barels bike from what I was told was about an 11" BB and 61 degree headangle. That was from Worlds a few years ago. Doubt he rode a stock frame.

I think the stock and Syndicate frames are similar or even the same, but the Syndicate generally has the newest, latest, and greatest proto stuff that will eventually come out on the next V10 as Santa Cruz is continually updating and upgrading
 

stinky6

Monkey
Dec 24, 2004
517
0
Monroe
I remember that the Dirt article where they talked about his bike. It was stock, but very tweaked. I believe they said that Kona didn't have the money to make 10+ frames a year for him when he decided to tweak the geometry or whatever. So things ended up being a little odd on his bike. I'm pretty sure that the one that was really slack and low was for a specific course: they put a shorter stroke shock on or flipped the links until the one angle was what he wanted and then the other was what seems way out of wack. Through the years the frame got refined to what it is now. The floating brake that did the opposite was to make both the front and back end go down equally when on the brakes, giving the bike a more balanced feel.
 
I remember that the Dirt article where they talked about his bike. It was stock, but very tweaked. I believe they said that Kona didn't have the money to make 10+ frames a year for him when he decided to tweak the geometry or whatever. So things ended up being a little odd on his bike. I'm pretty sure that the one that was really slack and low was for a specific course: they put a shorter stroke shock on or flipped the links until the one angle was what he wanted and then the other was what seems way out of wack. Through the years the frame got refined to what it is now. The floating brake that did the opposite was to make both the front and back end go down equally when on the brakes, giving the bike a more balanced feel.
I think it was a single frame for a specific course. He really wanted a specific BB headangle and the low bb was a consequence. Probably shorter shock or flipped links
 

vitox

Turbo Monkey
Sep 23, 2001
2,939
1
Santiago du Chili
I remember that the Dirt article where they talked about his bike. It was stock, but very tweaked. I believe they said that Kona didn't have the money to make 10+ frames a year for him when he decided to tweak the geometry or whatever. So things ended up being a little odd on his bike. I'm pretty sure that the one that was really slack and low was for a specific course: they put a shorter stroke shock on or flipped the links until the one angle was what he wanted and then the other was what seems way out of wack. Through the years the frame got refined to what it is now. The floating brake that did the opposite was to make both the front and back end go down equally when on the brakes, giving the bike a more balanced feel.


yep, the bike i saw right after he won in les gets, was what looked to be a stock frame with a custom stroke/length combination and a new shock mount drilled. not more than any competent suspension tuner and mechanic can do on lots of bikes esp single pivots or walking beam bikes.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”
Mar 14, 2005
4,837
1,028
Isn't a multi million dollar race car anology way off base to a thing that uses a couple aluminum tubes? (A bike). What is the most that could be different with a 'pros' bike, Geo and 'maybe' a higher grade aluminum.
Not really, given that there are much less aspects you can actually change on a bike. Geometry is probably the most significant component, your post suggests otherwise. Different geometry makes for significant performance differences, as does suspension setup... so I think the given analogy was at least reasonable, and at the very least didn't really need contradicting. :)
 

stiksandstones

Turbo Monkey
May 21, 2002
5,081
25
Orange, Ca
Not really, given that there are much less aspects you can actually change on a bike. Geometry is probably the most significant component, your post suggests otherwise. Different geometry makes for significant performance differences, as does suspension setup... so I think the given analogy was at least reasonable, and at the very least didn't really need contradicting. :)
That was way more than my brain can handle...but I 'think' you do not agree with my post, let me try to put it simply.
How about this....

If Joe Biker goes and buys a stock bike, he could actually make it just like a pros bike with little money and little time-case in point, in 2002 I needed to make some custom race frames for GT as there were no more 'custom' bikes being made, so I bought some tubing and $1500 later (and 6 days-with paint) I had 3 i-drive custom frames for brian lopes.

Now lets say you own a honda accord, hell, say you own an NSX...I can guarantee it will take you longer than 6 days and cost more than $1500 to have the same F1 car Jenson Button drives.
 

toodles

Turbo Monkey
Aug 24, 2004
2,912
1,249
Australia
That was way more than my brain can handle...but I 'think' you do not agree with my post, let me try to put it simply.
How about this....

If Joe Biker goes and buys a stock bike, he could actually make it just like a pros bike with little money and little time-case in point, in 2002 I needed to make some custom race frames for GT as there were no more 'custom' bikes being made, so I bought some tubing and $1500 later (and 6 days-with paint) I had 3 i-drive custom frames for brian lopes.

Now lets say you own a honda accord, hell, say you own an NSX...I can guarantee it will take you longer than 6 days and cost more than $1500 to have the same F1 car Jenson Button drives.
That's great man... :disgust:

Udi is comparing apples to apples. The price and complexity of a Formula One car doesn't contribute to the fact that it is different to the NSX.

What Udi is say is that geo and suspension are the biggest part of any DH frame. To run custom geo and suspension means the bike is realistically a new breed. The only similarity between the Barel bike and the production bike is the name on the downtube sticker.

Bringing cost into it? Lame. No one ever implied that and you're an idiot if you believe that's what was suggested.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”
Mar 14, 2005
4,837
1,028
I can guarantee it will take you longer than 6 days and cost more than $1500 to have the same F1 car Jenson Button drives.
Toodles beat me to it, but you can't compare cost of cars and bikes directly like that for obvious reasons, and I think you'd find that klunky was making the comparison based on performance differences rather than cost. He was just trying to say that the bike being raced would have performed very differently to the production item available at the time (obviously it's getting closer to fabien-geo now).

I think you'll also find that most people don't have the time/resources/skill to obtain tubing and weld up their own frame, which makes that case relatively irrelevant. Swapping shocks out and flipping/changing linkages like mentioned further above are probably more realistic examples, but often lead to some compromises being made.
 

bohorec

Monkey
Jun 26, 2007
327
0
I agree with stiksandstones. There is no way that you could race F1 with any regular car, but you can race any dh course with regular stab.
 

Mr Ridiculous

Margarita my slippers
Apr 21, 2006
435
0
Morgantown, WV
I tend to agree with stiks here. I don't see how you could compare the complexity of a bicycle to that of a professional racing car. With a bike, your two main issues are suspension and geometry. You have both of those in an F1 car, with the addition of an entire combustion engine. Not to mention the role aerodynamics/fuel economy/etc. plays in such things.

I'm not saying pro riders don't take their bikes as seriously as F1 drivers do their cars, but I don't think you can really compare the two machines.
 

Mr Ridiculous

Margarita my slippers
Apr 21, 2006
435
0
Morgantown, WV
I agree with stiksandstones. There is no way that you could race F1 with any regular car, but you can race any dh course with regular stab.
This is another good point. A pro DH racer would still be competitive on a stock bike, but you give, say, Travis Pastrana a stock WRX and he's toast.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”
Mar 14, 2005
4,837
1,028
With a bike, your two main issues are suspension and geometry. You have both of those in an F1 car, with the addition of an entire combustion engine. Not to mention the role aerodynamics/fuel economy/etc. plays in such things.
In my eyes, that was the point of the original comparison. Think about it - if the main issues on a bike are suspension and geometry, and you change them; that's a very significant change that you've just made. In terms of things that matter to performance on a bike, the percentage you've changed by modifying geometry and suspension is significantly high. Likewise the percentage of change between normal car and F1 car is high (and to reach that percentage, obviously more things have to be changed, because in cars you naturally have more factors involved with performance as you mentioned).

I'm sure this could go round and round in circles for a while though. :)
 

toodles

Turbo Monkey
Aug 24, 2004
2,912
1,249
Australia
Holy crap.. what a bunch of tards...

You're now actually trying to compare the complexity of a formula one car to a DH bike?

FFS.. the point about the pros bikes being as similar to the production bikes remains... custom geo and custom suspenion = new bike. End of story. If you think a frame with the same name on the downtube but different geo and suspension is the same then you're a mouth-breathing retard... end of story.
 

mtb1989

Chimp
Apr 22, 2007
76
0
when it comes to these kind of races, bike manufacturers put tens of thousands of dollars to make them lighter and better. sam hills bike is just as customized and is was lighter than the stock one. it might have the same geometry but it is still 100% custom. besides the stock kona stab that is the replica of his bike would be way to heavy and would be like a tank.
 

dhkid

Turbo Monkey
Mar 10, 2005
3,359
0
Malaysia
when it comes to these kind of races, bike manufacturers put tens of thousands of dollars to make them lighter and better. sam hills bike is just as customized and is was lighter than the stock one. it might have the same geometry but it is still 100% custom. besides the stock kona stab that is the replica of his bike would be way to heavy and would be like a tank.
sam hill does ride a custom frame, but it more of a custom geo then anything else.
 

bizutch

Delicate CUSTOM flower
Dec 11, 2001
15,923
9
Over your shoulder whispering
I agree with Stik. Even in motocross, you couldn't even order 50-60% of the parts on Chad Reed's bike if you knew the company that made the part. In F1, every single nut and bolt, fabricated sheet or tube and engine part is not in a parts catalog anywhere for public use.

Now...that being said, if Barel were on a true "works" bike, that frame would be made out of materials unavailable to the public like Scandium or carbon nanotubes with in house proprietary fabrication techniques, his fork would have nothing in it resembling a stock shim stack and his rear shock would way less than a midgets dikk.

DW and crew have noted on here and so have crank arm makers that pro setups , particularly BB height and head angle are pretty much useless the rest of the riders in the world. They grind bash guards and bent crank arms non stop because of their silly low BB's and unless you're going full on Mack 10 pro speed, their headtube angle will handle like a dead fish.

Very few pros are riding drasticly lightened down bikes with full parts specs that are all prototype. Rennie himself has said he doesn't want to know what his bike weighs and hopes his is heaver than everybody elses.

Here's a true "werks" bike to steal spelling from old Motocross Action mags:
Carbon nanotube frame with scandium BB shell and Headtube.
Hollow Carbon Saint prototype crankset with ceramic pedal inserts
Cane Creek Double Barrel w/ Titanium reservoir body and bolts
Custom Titanium spring wound to riders exact weight
All titanium hardware bolts (bolt on grip collars & bolts, stem bolts, pivot bolts, front and rear Ti axles, Ti seatpost clamp and bolt)
Fork with one-off castings, custom internals tuned by Showa technicians on site
Industry nine wheels w/ custom Carbon shell body, custom turned thinner bladed spokes in a 28 spoke pattern w/ One-off DT Swiss 32mm wide tubeless rims.
Prototype Maxxis tires w/ experimental compound
Experimental carbon nanotube front chainring
Full Carbon fiber E13 LG1 guide w/ Titanium hardware
Shimano hollow pin prototype chain and cassette made from revolutionary alloy.
Prototype Shimano 7 speed electronic rear shifter w/ wireless integrated thumb shifter


....this is about 1/50th the degree of custom a DH bike could get when comparing it to an F1 car. :D
 

SLanD3r

Chimp
Apr 6, 2006
37
0
In the end its probably just money. If there was as much money in DH as F1, DH bikes would probably have built in computers, active suspension, 100+ channel telemetry and teams would spend 40 million for a wind tunnel and have more scientists and researchers than mechanics.