[manimal]

I'm so friggin frustrated with our current system of victimization...er..welfare. As most of you may know, i'm a cop, and specifically, i work in the housing authority unit. i spend my 40-something hours per week patrolling in my city's areas of government housing. About 85% of the residents in these housing areas are 2nd and 3rd generation federal housing recipients and have no desire to get out of said neighborhood. I frequently hear comments from young teenage girls like, "i'm gonna have a baby when i'm 18 so i can get a house...." I deal with the kids of broken homes who, at 13 years old, are breaking into homes, selling drugs, and shooting people, all in the name of gang credit.
one kid in particular, well...he's 18 now so i guess he can be called an adult, is a lifelong resident of the 'hood. He's a very able bodied and smart kid, smart enough to make his way through the ranks of one of our local gang sets and he is highly articulate. He's been caught on several occasions with enough dope to be considered a felony for "intent to sell/deliver" but, other than that and a few breaking/entering charges, he stays pretty clean. He's admitted to me that he's an enforcer in the gang but his mother refuses to believe that he's in a gang and just blames the po-po for "picking on him because he hangs out with those other gangsters."
so anyway, i find out the other day that he gets a monthly disability check because for his ADHD
my brother in law has a much worse case of ADHD and he doesn't get crap, he works and tries his hardest to get his associates degree. this dude that i deal with frequently, makes about $1200 a month just for having ADHD plus he brings in about $5-6k per month in drug sales, which is probably how he bought his mother, who is a 2nd generation government housing resident and also on disability for being overweight, a brand new escalade w/ $4k rims (and her monthly rent for a 5 bedroom house is $27)

so the question i raise is this. where do we draw the line? do we owe the poverty stricken an indefinite free ride?

a few facts:
-if rent is late the resident can get a 90 day extension just for asking.
-if resident still cannot pay after 90 days they can apply for an "extreme hardship" consideration and get another 90 days to pay.
-an applicant for residency must show proof of a job to apply but their is nothing enforcing the maintaining of a job after they have been given residency.
-residents DO have a very strict lease policy that they must abide by: no unauthorized live-ins, no drugs, cleanliness of apartment......that's where i come in.


my suggestion:

every citizen is eligible for one year of government benefits. for instance; if i lose my job and have nowhere to go i can apply for temp residency. so say i get a job in 2 months and have enough money to move out in 3 months, i still have 9 months of benefits left. after that 12 months of benefits run out i can petition for further assistance but, at that point, i must submit to severe personal financial scrutiny. all money earned would go through an agency that would ensure it was not used frivolously and would aim towards getting me out of need for government assistance. this feature alone would deter many from a lifetime of mooching.

furthermore: if you are on ANY type of disability and you are caught selling drugs or convicted of any serious felony, you would lose your disability benefits. also, if you ever run, on foot, from police, your disability benefits would be revoked. <---my biggest pet peeve, someone on disability for a "bad back" or "bad lungs" etc that runs from me is obviously in decent health.

i'm sure this sounds harsh but remember, i deal with this EVERYDAY and see more harm done by this "new deal" leftover system than good.

discuss.

 

[Dartman]

Welfare recipients should also submit to drug testing to get their check. I have to pee in a bottle to work, so should they.

I agree with you. The system is broken.

 

[BurlyShirley]

No disagreement from me on any of this.

 

[manimal]

i have no problem with the underlying intent of the system; to help those in desperate need. i just believe that it's just to easy to perpetuate the cycle, it's too comfortable.
and yes, i'll be blunt. 98% of my residents are african american. i have taken african american psychology and AFAM history at one of the most liberal schools in the east and i understand the dynamics that are played out as to why, specifically here in the south, so many are at a disadvantage. but should we continue to allow the victim mentality to prevail?

 

[ohio]

There's a few little details I disagree with, but on the whole you have my support. The problem is this will cost money up front ... it only saves money in the long run, and it's political suicide to propose putting more money into welfare for welfare reform, especially if it's a left-ist that proposes it.

If a politician would grow a backbone and support it, I would happily pay the additional taxes necessary for the first 5-10 years.

 

[manimal]

one of my professors is a judge that i have testified before in court on several occassions and her background is in economics (something i know little about) she said that, at the current rate, this country would not be able to sustain the current level of funding for much longer.
it would be different if there were no jobs as was the case for FDR when he created the skeleton of our current welfare system...but there are jobs now, some would just rather not work and have a house/food for free.

 

[Silver]

one of my professors is a judge that i have testified before in court on several occassions and her background is in economics (something i know little about) she said that, at the current rate, this country would not be able to sustain the current level of funding for much longer.
it would be different if there were no jobs as was the case for FDR when he created the skeleton of our current welfare system...but there are jobs now, some would just rather not work and have a house/food for free.

Welfare funding is not the largest budgetary problem. You want to make some progress on the budget front, and it's time to start means testing social security benefits, getting rid of the SS tax cutoff, and cutting the military budget. Cutting welfare feels good, but it's not the biggest problem. Fixing a broken arm is fine, but it doesn't help you if your ignore the heart attack you're currently having...

 

[sanjuro]

i have no problem with the underlying intent of the system; to help those in desperate need. i just believe that it's just to easy to perpetuate the cycle, it's too comfortable.
and yes, i'll be blunt. 98% of my residents are african american. i have taken african american psychology and AFAM history at one of the most liberal schools in the east and i understand the dynamics that are played out as to why, specifically here in the south, so many are at a disadvantage. but should we continue to allow the victim mentality to prevail?

The problems for liberal types like myself and most of my neighbors is that they talk a great game about supporting the community, but are afraid to drive thru the projects at the bottom of the hill we live on.

On that note, I think many black figures, most notably Bill Cosby, have shouldered the responsibility of improving the black community back on other blacks.

I believe there are no easy solutions, which is why I still support the welfare system. I think New Orleans during Katrina is the perfect example of what will happen when gov't benefits are removed. But blacks ultimately have to take responsibility for their own self improvement.

 

[dhbuilder]

the welfare system was originally created as a "$$$ pump" to jump start the economy as the great depression was ending.

it's definately morphed quite a bit since then.
mis-used and abused to say the least.

 

[jimmydean]

See my post from a few months back.

Oregon is considering a drug testing requirement for welfare. I think it also includes section 8 housing.

I am jaded on this subject for 2 reasons.

1. My ex-wife gets disability/food stamps/section 8 housing. She is physically disabled, but she is also very capable when she wants to be. She has decided it's easier to collect a check than to get a job. Getting a job is never an issue because most employers want to hire a hot disabled chick, but she has gotten used to not working. It pissed me off to no end.

2. My current wife would have been 3rd generation welfare had she not wanted to do it herself. She was a single mother at 17 and worked as many as 3 jobs to support herself and her son without state aide at all. I applaud her effort and admire her drive and desire to get out and away from that. She never wanted that label and can't stand the types of people you talked about.

I know there are a handful of people who need help. But I can't even count the number of people who abuse the system in Oregon. I hear stories about it on the bus just bout every day.

 

[skatetokil]

Our society is rich enough to afford a safety net, but I believe we can design one that doesn't dull the incentive for able-bodied people to contribute to society and work toward their own improvement.

The country's drug problem is related to the fact that to keep their gov. benefits, many people refuse to hold legit jobs that generate taxable income. However, nobody actually wants to be poor, so there is a strong incentive to enter black market cash-and-carry businesses. The drug market and welfare scam are self reinforcing, and cops like you are put in the awkward position of hanging arrest records around the necks of the very people who most need a leg up in this country.

It makes me sick to think of you or any other police wasting time babysitting low lives and drug addicts. I hope we can get past blaming the pigs or the gangsters and recognize the economic dynamics that have brought us here. Our stupid laws create black markets capable of generating enormous wealth, but this wealth must be hidden or spent immediately. People are precluded from using it to invest and maybe lift themselves out of poverty, so instead they throw it away on consumption and status symbols and continue to collect the easy government cheese.

 

[MMike]

That post was too long for my AD......lolipop lilipop oh lolly lolipop.....

 

[manimal]

Our society is rich enough to afford a safety net, but I believe we can design one that doesn't dull the incentive for able-bodied people to contribute to society and work toward their own improvement.

The country's drug problem is related to the fact that to keep their gov. benefits, many people refuse to hold legit jobs that generate taxable income. However, nobody actually wants to be poor, so there is a strong incentive to enter black market cash-and-carry businesses. The drug market and welfare scam are self reinforcing, and cops like you are put in the awkward position of hanging arrest records around the necks of the very people who most need a leg up in this country.

It makes me sick to think of you or any other police wasting time babysitting low lives and drug addicts. I hope we can get past blaming the pigs or the gangsters and recognize the economic dynamics that have brought us here. Our stupid laws create black markets capable of generating enormous wealth, but this wealth must be hidden or spent immediately. People are precluded from using it to invest and maybe lift themselves out of poverty, so instead they throw it away on consumption and status symbols and continue to collect the easy government cheese.

you hit it right on the head. it is entirely too easy to make ludicrous amounts of illegal money illegally. i've interviewed dealers (most were gang member) who regularly pull in upwards of $12k per month...tax free. they know that they can't put it in a bank anywhere because it leaves a paper trail, so they just spend it or reinvest it in their "business."
i've had residents blame me and hate me for discovering their "unauthorized live-in" , ie: boyfriend/baby daddy, who is staying there without a job, watching the free cable and enjoying the free a/c. i try to explain to them that it is not their house, it has been "loaned" to them by the american people so that they can get on their feet and by allowing the boyfried to stay there w/out including his income in the rent figures it's like cheating everyone around you. my message usually falls on dead ears but that's ok, at least they won't be my problem anymore. i do have some really deserving residents and they are usually very helpful and seem to take some pride in their neighborhood by helping to keep it clean and safe. i do what i do for them mainly...the freeloaders and drug dealers/users don't deserve to be there and i try my hardest to get them out.

 

[Kihaji]

Our society is rich enough to afford a safety net, but I believe we can design one that doesn't dull the incentive for able-bodied people to contribute to society and work toward their own improvement.

The country's drug problem is related to the fact that to keep their gov. benefits, many people refuse to hold legit jobs that generate taxable income. However, nobody actually wants to be poor, so there is a strong incentive to enter black market cash-and-carry businesses. The drug market and welfare scam are self reinforcing, and cops like you are put in the awkward position of hanging arrest records around the necks of the very people who most need a leg up in this country.

It makes me sick to think of you or any other police wasting time babysitting low lives and drug addicts. I hope we can get past blaming the pigs or the gangsters and recognize the economic dynamics that have brought us here. Our stupid laws create black markets capable of generating enormous wealth, but this wealth must be hidden or spent immediately. People are precluded from using it to invest and maybe lift themselves out of poverty, so instead they throw it away on consumption and status symbols and continue to collect the easy government cheese.

Not reinvesting in society is not just the realm of the illegally rich, the legally rich do it just as much. The root of the problem is society has moved from "Making life better for my children", that it was even a short while ago(WW1, WW2 ish times), to "ME ME ME ME ME" and people who think the world owes them because <insert some hardship here>.

 

[manimal]

Not reinvesting in society is not just the realm of the illegally rich, the legally rich do it just as much. The root of the problem is society has moved from "Making life better for my children", that it was even a short while ago(WW1, WW2 ish times), to "ME ME ME ME ME" and people who think the world owes them because <insert some hardship here>.

excellent point. so the million dollar question is, what changed? did the "self exploration" generation drop the ball in teaching their offspring to think community? pop culture? .....any thoughts?

 

[SkaredShtles]

excellent point. so the million dollar question is, what changed? did the "self exploration" generation drop the ball in teaching their offspring to think community? pop culture? .....any thoughts?

What societal-changing piece of electronic equipment made its way into increasingly more and more houses after the Second World War?

Coincidence? I think not...

 

[Red Rabbit]

I hate welfare, I literally hate it. I believe that the Gov&#8217;t should not have to take care of you in anyway.

You should be responsible for yourself.

You should be self-reliant & prepared for emergencies.

I am 18 but I am investing in a 20 percent of my pay in a Roth IRA and saving 15% for emergencies.

People should be prepared to deal with hardships in life. They should not expect any support from the gov&#8217;t .

Taxes blow, the six percent I pay to SS sucks.

Welfare & foodstamps are an incentive to stay poor.

The System is Broken & should be destroyed.

Libertarians Unite

 

[Red Rabbit]

Regressive Taxes are the best incentive to make more money and get off your ass and do something.

 

[Transcend]

I hate welfare, I literally hate it. I believe that the Gov&#8217;t should not have to take care of you in anyway.

You should be responsible for yourself.

You should be self-reliant & prepared for emergencies.

I am 18 but I am investing in a 20 percent of my pay in a Roth IRA and saving 15% for emergencies.

People should be prepared to deal with hardships in life. They should not expect any support from the gov&#8217;t .

Taxes blow, the six percent I pay to SS sucks.

Welfare & foodstamps are an incentive to stay poor.

The System is Broken & should be destroyed.

Libertarians Unite

Let me guess, you aren't in a 4 year University?

 

[Silver]

excellent point. so the million dollar question is, what changed? did the "self exploration" generation drop the ball in teaching their offspring to think community? pop culture? .....any thoughts?

About a million things.

Take a look at marginal tax rates in the 60s and get back to me...it seems to me the poor are giving back at least as much as the rich. After all, if they didn't keep breeding, who would clean my house?

 

[Silver]

Let me guess, you aren't in a 4 year University?

He probably read Atlas Shrugged 6 months ago. Cue the sermon about how Ayn Rand is an unappreciated philosopher...

I went through that phase as well. In my defence, I was 17 and drinking heavily.

 

[Toshi]

What societal-changing piece of electronic equipment made its way into increasingly more and more houses after the Second World War?

Coincidence? I think not...

i agree with the hippy here.

and while i'm sure there are plenty of deadbeats on the welfare tabs, it's hardly a luxurious way to live for those who don't deal (and i'd like to see data that show the prevalence of drug dealing, etc. before writing everyone off).

have any of you lived at the poverty line? do the math: it's not easy.

this isn't to say that i'm not sickened by people spending money on frivolous things that they can't afford, or that i think the system doesn't need to be reformed such that people don't work for the perverse fear of losing their benefits.

 

[Red Rabbit]

I am very right wing. (actually, econ right wing, I could care less if you want to smoke weed or be gay, doesn't effect me.)

I am preaching (from my Soap Box) that the world is an ugly place, but you shouldn't expect any handouts or gov't programs to help you.

It is very sad that people depend on welfare like programs. You need to take care of your own future. Disability is a waste of money.

Tough Love. If you work hard you will succeed.

I do not come from a wealthy family but I come from a family that relies on itself to get through life.

I Have never read "Atlas Shrugged"

And I don't drink

 

[blue]

Let me guess, you aren't in a 4 year University?

ITT Tech got me my Cisco certification in SEVEN HOUSR!111211!!11

I love the whole egalitarian idealism of Libertarianism...it's quaint, in a sad kind of way.

 

[Red Rabbit]

Just wondering, Do you think the rich should taxed more than the poor? Do you think the rich are taxed to much or too little?

IF you say yes on both counts, why?

Bill gates worked his ass of to get were he is. He deserves to reap the benefits of that hard work. We should not expect him to give to the poor or pay more taxes. To do so is ludicrous. We would be effectively be reducing the incentive to do well for oneself, because once you do, you should give it all (well ok, a lot ) of it to &#8220;transition taxes&#8221; (think robin hood, take from rich give to poor).

The rich should not support the poor.

If you are born poor, work three Jobs and get your ass out of that situation.

You can make 40 + thousands dollars with an AA degree from a community college. They cost, on average 6,000 grand, over two or more years.

Anyone can succeed. They just have to put some effort into it.

 

[ohio]

I do not come from a wealthy family but I come from a family that relies on itself to get through life.

Please, honky. You live in walnut creek. You're either an illegal alien living 6 to a room, or you're in the top 10%.

 

[Toshi]

You can make 40 + thousands dollars with an AA degree from a community college. They cost, on average 6,000 grand, over two or more years.

Anyone can succeed. They just have to put some effort into it.

going to even a community college requires a level of time and resources that is incompatible with reality for many. when you're struggling with rent and groceries, let alone health insurance, tuition and the time off needed to capitalize on it seem a distant priority, i imagine.

 

[blue]

Please, honky. You live in walnut creek. You're either an illegal alien living 6 to a room, or you're in the top 10%.

Bwahahaha...from Wikipedia:

The median income for a household in the city was $63,238, and the median income for a family was $83,794. Males had a median income of $66,482 versus $45,220 for females. The per capita income for the city was $39,875. About 1.7% of families and 3.7% of the population were below the poverty line, including 3.1% of those under age 18 and 3.6% of those age 65 or over.

84k a year is all? Damn, all those Walnut-Creekers must pull themselves up by their bootstraps to get there...it's the AMERICAN DREAM!!!

What was that quote by Silver I once had in my sig? Every American is delusional in that they think they will all be rich or something?

The only way to become wealthy from a non-wealthy background without incredible luck in this nation is to become involved in some sort of illegal activity.

 

[Red Rabbit]

Cost of living in Walnut creek is High very high, my family income is less than 120k the house I live in was bought in 1986, for about 150 thousand , very cheap back then. We are very middle class in this city.

Toshi,
So what is your solution? I mean, giving them help is not working the system is broken. What should we do?

Give them one option tell them to survive

 

[Silver]

George W. Bush syndrome...born on third, convinced he hit a triple.

The quote was something to the effect of "All Americans have this delusion that someday, somehow, they will be rich."

 

[Red Rabbit]

Blue,

Thats not true at all. Bill Gates was not well off at all pre microsoft.

 

[Silver]

Cost of living in Walnut creek is High very high, my family income is less than 120k the house I live in was bought in 1986, for about 150 thousand , very cheap back then. We are very middle class in this city.

Dear lord. How do you make it through the day? School must be hard to find time for considered all the cans you and your family must be collecting...

 

[Red Rabbit]

I never said I was poor. I just said I was not rich.

 

[Silver]

Blue,

Thats not true at all. Bill Gates was not well off at all pre microsoft.

Since you probably are having trouble reading this via candlelight (due to your financial situation, I'd imagine electricity is out of reach most nights) let me direct you to the wikipedia entry for Bill Gates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates

Under the "Early Life" section, we find this:

William Henry Gates III was born in Seattle, Washington to William H. Gates, Jr. (now Sr.) and Mary Maxwell Gates. His family was wealthy; his father was a prominent lawyer, his mother served on the board of directors for First Interstate Bank and the United Way, and her father, J. W. Maxwell, was a national bank president. Gates has one older sister, Kristi (Kristianne), and one younger sister, Libby.

And this:

Gates excelled in elementary school, particularly in mathematics and the sciences. At thirteen he enrolled in the Lakeside School, Seattle's most exclusive preparatory school where tuition in 1967 was $5,000 (Harvard tuition that year was $1,760). When he was in the eighth grade, the school mothers used proceeds from a rummage sale to buy Lakeside an ASR-33 teletype terminal and a block of computer time on a General Electric computer.

Ah yes. Every mother in 1967 used the money from bake sales to buy computer time. That was something every poor kid had access to, they just were too lazy and didn't feel like making something of themselves...

 

[Red Rabbit]

Also understand I am Libertarian. If we had it my way I would abolish public schools and only have private ones. I would perpetuate a class system similar to that of Huxley’s Brave New World. Gov’t would not interfere with anything, less protection of its citizens rights through police & Army & Federal Currency. Very few laws very minimal taxes. As long as ones rights do not infringe with another’s we are all good.

 

[Red Rabbit]

Since you probably are having trouble reading this via candlelight (due to your financial situation, I'd imagine electricity is out of reach most nights) let me direct you to the wikipedia entry for Bill Gates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates

Under the "Early Life" section, we find this:

William Henry Gates III was born in Seattle, Washington to William H. Gates, Jr. (now Sr.) and Mary Maxwell Gates. His family was wealthy; his father was a prominent lawyer, his mother served on the board of directors for First Interstate Bank and the United Way, and her father, J. W. Maxwell, was a national bank president. Gates has one older sister, Kristi (Kristianne), and one younger sister, Libby.

And this:

Gates excelled in elementary school, particularly in mathematics and the sciences. At thirteen he enrolled in the Lakeside School, Seattle's most exclusive preparatory school where tuition in 1967 was $5,000 (Harvard tuition that year was $1,760). When he was in the eighth grade, the school mothers used proceeds from a rummage sale to buy Lakeside an ASR-33 teletype terminal and a block of computer time on a General Electric computer.

Ah yes. Every mother in 1967 used the money from bake sales to buy computer time. That was something every poor kid had access to, they just were too lazy and didn't feel like making something of themselves...

Danm that sure proved me wrong, I had believed for years that he was barley affording college.

 

[Red Rabbit]

I do understand that my perspective would be different if I lived in a ghetto, but I would be dead by 22 so it wouldn't really matter.

 

[blue]

Blue,

Thats not true at all. Bill Gates was not well off at all pre microsoft.

Indeed, just excessively lucky. In addition to this point - find me a person of color that has pulled a Bill Gates out of the projects.

I'm willing to put a wager on the fact that 90% of the people in the nation with an income over $250k were already born into a significant amount of money.

The whole point of the system is to keep those that are down down, and those that are up up. One success story in a million seems to do enough to string deluded morons into thinking they'll be loaded someday.

 

[blue]

I do understand that my perspective would be different if I lived in a ghetto, but I would be dead by 22 so it wouldn't really matter.

You're aware that you just negated everything you've said in this thread (and your entire belief system), right?

****, let's just kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. They're dead by 22 anyway, so it's all right.

 

[Red Rabbit]

Hey, keeping the down down keeps my lawn mowed & clothes clean. Keeping the Up up keeps my IRA growing at 7-11 percent a year. Everyone has a place.