Benchcut trails should be marked by a Pink Bow!

biggins · Oct 6, 2004

which trail is this?where are the girls?

me89 · Oct 6, 2004

nothing has happend to our trail yet. but there is one thing i need to know though. where is this and give me some directions man cause it sounds like a pretty raw trail.

MTB_Rob_NC · Oct 6, 2004

Jeremy R said:
Rant on.
So, as I approach this section, I immediately notice that some douchebag has come in and basically benchcut a sidewalk all the way down to the turn,
taking away any technical aspect of it at all.
There was no erosion problem here at all, and it was not even the main trail.
Just pure pussification of a trail for no reason. The funny thing is that there were trees down that needed to be removed, but evidently this off camber section was deemed to be of more importance. I would wager my nutsack that the person who cut that 5 lane expressway onto the trail could not ride it the way it was, so instead of learning it, he ruined it. Fast food mentality.
He probaly moves rocks too and cuts out roots to keep from getting "jarred" so much that he can't reach the string of his tampon. :mumble: :mumble:
(kidding about the girl references, this girl I ride with was pizzed that it was removed as well.)
This thread was basically just my rant, but if something like this has happened to your trail, feel free to contribute.

Unless you are actually out there DOING trail maintenance you should just keep your trap shut and be happy someone is out there doing it for you. :nope:

There are lots of possibilities, maybe there was a mud slide, maybe there was crap blocking it, maybe you do not know enough about trail building to see what the issue really was? If you weren't there you shouldn't be complaining. If it was my favorite piece of single track, I know I would be involved with what goes on.

[/rant off]

I know this is from another thread, but it seemed like an appropriate quote.

Jeremy R said:
I shoulda been there.
I went to see the Panthers gets waxed by the Falcons.
They both played crappy and even Vick was boring.

biggins · Oct 6, 2004

actually jeremy has done a fair amount of trailbuilding.

MTB_Rob_NC · Oct 6, 2004

Jeremy R said:
Wow, it looks like I hit a nerve. Maybe I should alert your locals to keep an eye out for you. Sounds like a rock remover.
First off, not only do I do trail maintenance, but I also build entire DH courses for others to race on. This was not trail maintenance, it was sabotage.
I rode this trail 2 days earlier and it was fine, then it was ruined.
What, you want me camp out at the trailhead looking for evildoers.
What did my quote in another thread have to do with anything?
I missed out at Sugar that one day, because I had a prior commitment, and the original work date was changed. Big deal. You should have gotten the hint from that thread that I like trailbuilding and hated to miss out on it.
You don't know me, or what I am about, so maybe its your pie hole you should shut. I have worked on the very trails, you travel through 3 states just to ride.

Ok then! I was bored and wanted to start some trouble. :blah:

Now what trail is this 14 mile piece of rolling Single Track.

dfinn · Oct 6, 2004

interesting approach. you piss him off and then try and get directions to what sounds like one of his favorite local trails. i should try that.

biggins · Oct 6, 2004

quit gettin pissy with each other guys. damn.

bizutch · Oct 6, 2004

Out of line Rob....Jeremy's got big time effort into trailbuilding right by my side for the most part. He didn't show at Sugar because he was at the Panthers/Falcons game. It's the VERY FIRST time he hasn't helped me build or cut new trail.

As for bench cutting a trail in Spartanburg, that is just plain stupid. The lady he's talking about complaining is at best a total chicken when it comes to downhill. She wears knee pads on all of her XC rides. If she said it was dumb to remove it....it had to be useless. I believe him and don't doubt for an instance that some former roadie cut that section in because they couldn't ride it, not because there was a valid issue with drainage or erosion. For one thing...there is NO SUCH THING as runoff in Spartanburg.

Also, Spartanburg is full of people with very little skill who would rather ride paths, than trails. Lack of ability doesn't give people the right to neuter a trail and turn it into a path.

Take a minute and think of all the goobs you bring up to Asheville who can barely ride the easiest trail in Bent Creek. Well, up here 90% of the people who ride Bent Creek find the place easy....whereas I'm sure the group you bring has 30-40% of them in awe. They'd be the first to neuter a trail instead of ride it.

MTB_Rob_NC · Oct 6, 2004

dfinn said:
interesting approach. you piss him off and then try and get directions to what sounds like one of his favorite local trails. i should try that.

Please this is an internet Forum, pissing people off and making nice is what we do to pass the time! :cool:

Besides if JeremyR wasn't a trail builder/trail maintenance volunteer my points would of been very valid and everyone should have continued to bash him until he proved other wise. :eviltongu :eviltongu

biggins · Oct 6, 2004

Jeremy R said:
Thx Biggins.
And sorry I missed out on Sugar.
I will be there this Saturday morning for sure.
This trail is in Spartanburg, and I ride with this married couple,
and the wife is a hammerhead. I am sure you have seen her
around Asheville, she rides a black tracer, and is "biggins avatar
worthy."

werd. unfortunately i will not be there saturday due to work but my chainsaw will be!

you should take a picture for me then, you know for an avatar.

biggins · Oct 6, 2004

Mtb_Rob_FL said:
Please this is an internet Forum, pissing people off and making nice is what we do to pass the time!

Besides if JeremyR wasn't a trail builder/trail maintenance volunteer my points would of been very valid and everyone should have continued to bash him until he proved other wise. :eviltongu :eviltongu

bwahahahahahahah! you so craaaazy!

MTB_Rob_NC · Oct 6, 2004

bizutch said:
Take a minute and think of all the goobs you bring up to Asheville who can barely ride the easiest trail in Bent Creek. Well, up here 90% of the people who ride Bent Creek find the place easy....whereas I'm sure the group you bring has 30-40% of them in awe. They'd be the first to neuter a trail instead of ride it.

OK first off, let me apologize to JeremyR, that was meant as tongue and cheek (unless of course he had never lifted a shovel). By his next post, I thought he (and everyone else saw that).

That being said ya might want to check some facts. X-reference IMBA and www.ClubMud.com especially in their most recent trail building book. We do quite a bit of "technical" trail building with what VERY little resources (huge population, very few places to ride) we have. So much so that IMBA has used us as an example over and over and over again.
http://www.imba.com/tcc/2004/florida.html
http://www.imba.com/resources/freeriding/risk_management.html
http://www.imba.com/resources/freeriding/florida_freeriding.html

biggins · Oct 6, 2004

kinda hard to build a rock garden when ya aint got no rocks!

MTB_Rob_NC · Oct 6, 2004

biggins said:
kinda hard to build a rock garden when ya aint got no rocks!

Or go mountain biking when you dont have any mountains!
:mumble:

:mumble:

And you wonder why I may seem bitter!@!@!@!

biggins · Oct 6, 2004

dont be bitter, move.

MTB_Rob_NC · Oct 6, 2004

biggins said:
dont be bitter, move.

Well we went through this already, I am waiting for you to find me a job that can = my living status here. I even offered you free room and board for like 6 months.

Ian F · Oct 6, 2004

biggins said:
dont be bitter, move.

Werd...

Jeremy, your plight has been our life in Philly for the past 10 years... What used to be awesome technical singletrack is now a smooth, double-track highway. We did trail maintenance. Gave up half the trails in the park... Tried to work with them in any way we could... In the end, we just found different places to ride. You could say that "they" won, but the mtn bikers simply don't have the resources or organization to fight back. :dead:

MTB_Rob_NC · Oct 6, 2004

Ian F said:
You could say that "they" won, but the mtn bikers simply don't have the resources or organization to fight back.

I hear ya, it is hard to get organized. Luckily/unluckily depending on how you look at it, we have a huge population and only a few places to ride, so finding a "new" place to ride is not an option.

bizutch · Oct 6, 2004

Tough love Rob. You just happened to guess the wrong thing about the wrong person.

If wish people understood how sad it is to see a root taken out of a trail or even a boulder moved. Sure, I saw some great work done to Kitsuma to shore several sections up...but I've seen other places where they rip out roots, rocks, etc. in the name of "preserving the trail". Around here all that accomplishes is to create a loose dirt bank that gets dug in, chopped up by tires, feet, dogs and then muddies and washes away.

Leaving roots and rocks limits a tire's direct contact with the easily shifting dirt. It also HOLDS DIRT IN PLACE. They slow down water runoff and erosion. I still cannot understand how removing roots and rocks is supposed to make a trail more durable. A root will stay in place for 15-20 years of direct contact with a rubber tire. Bald dirt, bench cut or otherwise...will get moved, washed away, bogged... you name it.

That section Jeremy described...I can picture it this winter when the ground is saturated 24/7...it will turn into a big fat mud puddle.

rydronthestorm · Oct 6, 2004

okay this being a public forum and you guys bashing properly built trails i feel like i need to put in my two cents.

as for butch and jerremy building trails. you dont build trails you build erosion gullies. you guys are thinking too short sighted. the individuals that cut bench trail are well intentioned. as the trail compacts and the user erosion takes place the trail will get more technical, however the onthing this trail has that the previous one didnt is your great grandkids will be able to enjoy it as well.

i know this is gonna be taken wrong but you guys have really got to get out of the mentality of raw downhill extremeness and understand you are trail users and by building bad trail you are actually hurting mountain biking. you guys have left such a scar on wolf laurel that stuff you used to be able to snowboad on you cant anymore because the trails turn into funnels for soupy nasty murkey water.

im not saying you guys should stop doing what you do just become more creative and informed. the book previously suggested is a good start, Trail Solutions. with ya'lls riding skill and eye coupled to proper information about armoring, rock or flipped over concrete chunks. as well as large grade reversal contour trails....dirt jumps....you can build unbeleivable flowy and most importantly sustainable downhill trails.

Jeremy with you being so close, check out mine and adams work at paris mountain state park if you have the speed and skill to find them there are three twenty foot gaps on our small mountain creek trail alone and some really cool big rock lines on the firetower road.

once again im not bashing you guys im just wanting you to be more informed that the fall line stuff you build will not last but three years before it is a scare on the mountain and the face of local mountain bikers.

Thanks

MTB_Rob_NC · Oct 6, 2004

bizutch said:
Tough love Rob. You just happened to guess the wrong thing about the wrong person.

Thats cool, I rather be wrong and get corrected about someone that puts in the work then get rightous on someone that doesn't do anything but bitch.

There is a time and place for well thought out bench cuts, sorry your piece of trail got pussified.

biggins · Oct 6, 2004

rydronthestorm said:
okay this being a public forum and you guys bashing properly built trails i feel like i need to put in my two cents.

as for butch and jerremy building trails. you dont build trails you build erosion gullies. you guys are thinking too short sighted. the individuals that cut bench trail are well intentioned. as the trail compacts and the user erosion takes place the trail will get more technical, however the onthing this trail has that the previous one didnt is your great grandkids will be able to enjoy it as well.

i know this is gonna be taken wrong but you guys have really got to get out of the mentality of raw downhill extremeness and understand you are trail users and by building bad trail you are actually hurting mountain biking. you guys have left such a scar on wolf laurel that stuff you used to be able to snowboad on you cant anymore because the trails turn into funnels for soupy nasty murkey water.

im not saying you guys should stop doing what you do just become more creative and informed. the book previously suggested is a good start, Trail Solutions. with ya'lls riding skill and eye coupled to proper information about armoring, rock or flipped over concrete chunks. as well as large grade reversal contour trails....dirt jumps....you can build unbeleivable flowy and most importantly sustainable downhill trails.

Jeremy with you being so close, check out mine and adams work at paris mountain state park if you have the speed and skill to find them there are three twenty foot gaps on our small mountain creek trail alone and some really cool big rock lines on the firetower road.

once again im not bashing you guys im just wanting you to be more informed that the fall line stuff you build will not last but three years before it is a scare on the mountain and the face of local mountain bikers.

Thanks

damn ben, your speaking has gotten so very eloquent. seriously though, good to hear from ya.

bizutch · Oct 6, 2004

Ben....I'll be happy to discuss your ideas in person but skip the slamming of my trails online. Don't know where you get this crap about the trails doing ANY damage to the ski trails at Wolf. If you're on the ski slope, you're on grass. If you're on a DH trail at Wolf, you're out of bounds! WTF?

bizutch · Oct 6, 2004

Also, Ben you left out the fact that you're GETTING PAID TO DO WHAT YOU DO. And you are using HEAVY EQUIPMENT. You have a Trail Dingo for crying out loud that can rip out small trees!!!!!

And you've not once offered to help at Wolf even though you are a local. As a matter of fact, the Ski and Bike shop you work for has NOT ONCE offered any assistance to help out at Wolf. The really sad part is that your shop makes it's living because of Wolf Laurel and you guys haven't tried to support me at all up there. :confused:

spoke80 · Oct 6, 2004

What about bringing the ideas and equipment together to create an awesome trail at sugar? I am sure a "trail dingo" and all the expertise on ths thread could be put to good use and showcase both to the incoming norba rep. Everyone likes collaboration and a well thoughtout design.

Here in Knoxville people take rotor-tillers to the xc trails and convert them to dirt sidewalks. :nope:

My trail dingo! (Yes, the snake is real)

bizutch · Oct 6, 2004

they're using a Dingo that the park bought exclusively for their trails.

T-Pirate · Oct 6, 2004

rydronthestorm said:
as for butch and jerremy building trails. you dont build trails you build erosion gullies. you guys are thinking too short sighted. the individuals that cut bench trail are well intentioned. as the trail compacts and the user erosion takes place the trail will get more technical, however the onthing this trail has that the previous one didnt is your great grandkids will be able to enjoy it as well.

Thanks

While true, I have also heard multiple times that they had one or two weekends to build those trails...by themselves. Sometimes rock armoring, bench cutting...etc isn't an option. One weekend to build a DH trail with few volunteers is one of those times in my opinion.

I need to get back out to Paris Mountain again now that I have my hardtail built up. I enjoy working out there, it has helped out in building our stuff too.

Also, southside is not a place that is all maintainable by any means. Next to some of the trails there are 3 foot deep ditches from run off, so a small off camber singletrack should be the least of someone's worries.

biggins · Oct 6, 2004

cool, we can use the dingo and make the downhill courses just like tsali.

you could not even get a dingo through sugar even if you pre-cleared it.

T-Pirate · Oct 6, 2004

bizutch said:
Leaving roots and rocks limits a tire's direct contact with the easily shifting dirt. It also HOLDS DIRT IN PLACE. They slow down water runoff and erosion. I still cannot understand how removing roots and rocks is supposed to make a trail more durable. A root will stay in place for 15-20 years of direct contact with a rubber tire. Bald dirt, bench cut or otherwise...will get moved, washed away, bogged... you name it.

This seems true to me too. Think about sugar mountain. Riding and walking that trail, the only place I see that the terrain looks greatly affected is the rootless bench cut right at the end of lizards lane. The rest of that place isn't heavily bench cut, but all the roots and rocks keep it in line.

biggins · Oct 6, 2004

T-Pirate said:
This seems true to me too. Think about sugar mountain. Riding and walking that trail, the only place I see that the terrain looks greatly affected is the rootless bench cut right at the end of lizards lane. The rest of that place isn't heavily bench cut, but all the roots and rocks keep it in line.

enter the pirate!aaaarrrrrrgggggh

rydronthestorm · Oct 6, 2004

the only thing i was trying to do was make you guys think a little more criticly about what you are doing and if all you can do is talk smack about how someone went through the proper channels to find money to pay me and adam and buy equipment you are even more short sighted than i thought.

and butch i havent worked at ski country for a year mostly due to the same things you said ski country is a leech of the people aroound who really deserve the credit. for once we agree on something.

oh here is an idea too, try and talk sugar into bikes being worth equipment and trail crews just like the ski season has, did you ever think you guys are getting leeched off of by johan, the owner, who is a very money hungry individual and im sure free labor to him is great. where do you think the money from those lift tickets goes?

bizutch · Oct 6, 2004

Dude, you got the wrong mentality. we aren't cutting trails there for free because we're getting taken by "the man". We go to these places and cut the stuff cause we LOVE to ride this type of stuff and nobody else is going to build it if we don't. We WANT to build stuff we ride.

AS for proper channels, you lucked out and you know it.

In regards to the lift tickets, you are way off on the money flow from those things. Maybe you should actually ride there one weekend before you say this stuff. They run a deisel engine, charge $20.00 a head for ALL DAY or $7.00 for a one-time tourist ride. On any given weekend there are 10 riders at best and maybe 20 tourists. They have 6 staff members working from 9am - 6pm on those TWO DAYS out of the week. Even if they made $2000.00 (200 riders), it wouldn't justify turning the thing on. They do it to keep their winter employees around and give them work in the summer. They LOSE MONEY EVERY TIME THAT LIFT STARTS IN THE SUMMER. They are even so cool that they only charge $25.00 head for the race entry and lift ticket. That's THE cheapest lift around....and the only lift.

Sugar doesn't need the money from us to support their business. Never did....never will! They do it because Kim Jochl is a mountain biker herself and has a direct influence on what goes on. I cut DH trails b/c I like being out there, being creative, and furthering my sport.

You should send the Hick Hucksters an email telling them to send the Forest Service a bill for stunt building......

Don't worry, I'll still drink a beer with you....you roadie!

Fury · Oct 6, 2004

Question for you southerners - can you shuttle all year round? I may have to make a trip down for my Feb. Reading Week (i think Americans call it Spring Break).

surfinguru · Oct 6, 2004

Caution thread hi-jack:

Biggins, that avatar is by far THE BEST ONE YET!! :love:

Rock on dude!

Oh, and yeah, trail neutering sucks! If you can't ride it, find an easier trail.

T-Pirate · Oct 6, 2004

Fury said:
Question for you southerners - can you shuttle all year round? I may have to make a trip down for my Feb. Reading Week (i think Americans call it Spring Break).

Pisgah shuttling is good all year long.

Benchcut trails should be marked by a Pink Bow!

<b>x</b>

Rump Junkie

Monkey

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?

Rump Junkie

<b>x</b>

<b>x</b>

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?

Turbo Monkey

<b>x</b>

Rump Junkie

Delicate CUSTOM flower

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?

Rump Junkie

Rump Junkie

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?

Rump Junkie

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?

Rump Junkie

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?

Turbo Monkey

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?

Delicate CUSTOM flower

Chimp

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?

Rump Junkie

Delicate CUSTOM flower

<b>x</b>

Delicate CUSTOM flower

Turbo Monkey

Delicate CUSTOM flower

RESPECT!

Rump Junkie

RESPECT!

Rump Junkie

Chimp

Delicate CUSTOM flower

Monkey

Turbo Monkey

RESPECT!