[Zark]

Extending wheelbase Fraser? Better for cornering?

Low BB. shortish stays and a low COG are the magic for corners.

I think I'd look at the Turner DHR, Intense M1 and Chumba.

I love the way my m1 corners, it was a revalation compared to the big hit. And with all the noise it makes, there is hardly ever a hiker in my way coming into a corner (the true secret of fast cornering )

 

[kidwoo]

Originally posted by Transcend
uhh no. I do not mean the opposite. I mean just what i said. A bike with a wheelbase that shortens sucks for the most part.

I know you meant what you said. What I said was that I believed the exact opposite of what you said.

I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, I'm just trying to disagree with you.

I mentioned the orange for obvious reasons. You seem to really like it. The high pivot on those frames does cause the rear end to extend but only at the top of the compression.......sag essentially. After that the wheel moves towards the bike, shortening the wheelbase right?

M1s, turners, foes, ventanas all corner very well in my opinion. They also all shorten. The extending wheelbase creating stability only makes sense to me when you're talking about going straight. A longer bike will feel more stable yes. A shorter bike turns easier, you can't argue that. I guess when you're talking about gigantic radius turns, you may have a point but when I think about difficult turns, I'm usually thinking about rough tight ones........where a shorter bike would be better. "Better cornering" to me means, makes difficult turns easier. Maybe it means something else to others.

 

[vitox]

Originally posted by kidwoo
yeah what you said except exactly the opposite

this is why karpiels and canfields corner like poo. Have you ridden either of those? It's kind of extreme end of the extending WB but applicable to your statement.

cant say much for canfields but karps DO NOT extend like you are saying, once the lower link gets horizontal which isnt much past the sag point on a normal setup, the wheelbase shortens. dead wrong there. ive got a few saddles with tire marks to prove that lying around as well.

 

[vitox]

Originally posted by Transcend
Longer wheelbase generally means a more stable bike that can take corners at higher speeds.

thats only half the truth


shorter wheelbase means a smaller turn radius


so its a classic win/lose situation, its a matter of choice, easily flickable or stable bike

only thing thats for certain when it comes to cornering is that balance matters and a low CoG does a lot for balance.

 

[Transcend]

Originally posted by vitox
thats only half the truth


shorter wheelbase means a smaller turn radius


so its a classic win/lose situation, its a matter of choice, easily flickable or stable bike

only thing thats for certain when it comes to cornering is that balance matters and a low CoG does a lot for balance.

But higher speed corners is mostly where you will notice the difference, as you are usually deeper into the travel.

On a low speed corner, you are PROBABLY not far into the travel, therefore the wheelbase will be inherently shorter.

 

[kidwoo]

Originally posted by vitox
cant say much for canfields but karps DO NOT extend like you are saying, once the lower link gets horizontal which isnt much past the sag point on a normal setup, the wheelbase shortens. dead wrong there. ive got a few saddles with tire marks to prove that lying around as well.

If you really think I'm wrong take your back wheel out and stick a pencil in one of the dropouts. Get the bike horizontal and next to a vertical surface you can draw on. Trace the path. If you have access to CAD software, draw it out that way. The wheel moves out until that lower link is horizontal like you said. By the time that link is horizontal, you're pretty far into the travel. I know this because Jan Karpiel did the same thing with me with my disco frame when I was talking about his bikes with him about 2 years ago in his shop. At the time I was really interested in why his bikes felt the way they did and he gave me the lengthy version of how he came up with his system. If you don't believe me call him and ask him.

I've hit my saddle with my back wheel with both my Karpiels too. It's more a result of where that wheel sits at rest than where it moves to. Those bikes have short rear ends at rest.

 

[ssaddict]

Originally posted by Transcend
But higher speed corners is mostly where you will notice the difference, as you are usually deeper into the travel.

On a low speed corner, you are PROBABLY not far into the travel, therefore the wheelbase will be inherently shorter.

Yup, I notice much of this on my BCD. Excellent in both slow and fast corners, short wheel base in slow corners where your on your front brake and rear is extended, and long and stable in super high speed birms.

But we all know cornering is probably 95% rider and body position... not bike.

 

[neversummersnow]

Originally posted by ssaddict

But we all know cornering is probably 95% rider and body position... not bike.

EXACTLY---GO RIDE

o wait...my mom took all my bikes so i could "focus" on finals...yea, right

 

[Transcend]

Originally posted by neversummersnow
EXACTLY---GO RIDE

o wait...my mom took all my bikes so i could "focus" on finals...yea, right

BAH AHAHAHA. That is great. Go mom!

 

[ssaddict]

Damn, She's mean!

 

[vitox]

so you agree with me that the wheelbase shortens once the lower link is horizontal

thats good

what i meant with a "normal setup" was te lower link at about 40º or the eccentric on a disco at the 6 o clock position, that way you have a lot better pedalling characteristics and a lower bb. set up that way, the rider sags the bike almost until the lower link is horizontal, i dont have any pics of it but thats the way it is. dont need to call jan up after having been setting up karps for racers for 3 years.

 

[kidwoo]

Originally posted by ssaddict

But we all know cornering is probably 95% rider and body position... not bike.

Yeah but it's easier to criticize someone's bike than them.
But you are right.

How can one concentrate on finals when thoughts of kidnapping a bike back are sure to plague one's thoughts? sounds counterproductive.

 

[Jm_]

Originally posted by stoney98
I'm gonna argue this, mostly because I can't turn for shiznit, but can turn on the DHR. I've actually managed to high center a few times from push corners too hard on it?!?!

What I've noticed is that while you can get similer turning out of a lot of bikes, some of those bikes require extra body english to do so, you have to move your weight in the turn, usually forward if I remember correctly, in fact I think on my SGS I have to use a forward bias in a turn to really get the most out of it.

On the other hand, on other bikes it seems that you can just stay "centered" and it will rail right through without the need to move your weight forwards and backwards so much.

 

[kidwoo]

Originally posted by vitox
so you agree with me that the wheelbase shortens once the lower link is horizontal

thats good

what i meant with a "normal setup" was te lower link at about 40? or the eccentric on a disco at the 6 o clock position, that way you have a lot better pedalling characteristics and a lower bb. set up that way, the rider sags the bike almost until the lower link is horizontal, i dont have any pics of it but thats the way it is. dont need to call jan up after having been setting up karps for racers for 3 years.

True, 6 o clock pulls the rear end up and brings that link further towards horizontal at rest. It also brings the wheel closer to the seat at the finish of the stroke, it doesn't change the axle path though. What I was saying about my wheel hitting as well was that even after suspension compression, the wheel is still pretty close the the bike because it starts out close to the bike, not necessarily because it's shortening.

But yeah at the absolute last little bit of travel the wheel changes its path a bit. I still remember it being more vertical though. In the context of this discussion however, that's not where your suspension is likely to be when cornering in most cases. You will more than likely be in a position where the rear end is extended. Seriously though. Draw it out.

I had a disco that I was trying to get to pedal well in a small chainring. I sat around with Jan in his shop one day switching out lower and upper linkage plates and looking at the axle paths. What I was trying to do was to get a bike that didn't extend the suspension or didn't extend as much under chain torque at sag position. The smaller rings were putting a lot of torque on the hub and causing the rear end to extend and cause the bike to rise up. This is the opposite of what most bikes do. Pulling on the rear wheel on most bikes, compresses the suspension. On Karpiels, as the wheel gets pulled towards the bike, the rear end rises/ conversely as it compresses, it extends away from the bike. Look for that kinkage program that someone put on here a while back. I've got it on my home computer. I can send it to you if you want. You can do an axle path analysis on a Karpiel system.

And ask Jan anyway. He will tell you the same thing.

 

[mack]

after reading all this suspension bub i am narrowing it down to four choices..

Gemini DH 7 inch
rotec dh 9
chumbawumba f4 (maybe to pricy)
Nicolai m pire ($$)

i am leading towards the gemini cus there made in the USA and there pretty light and simple. thanks all.

 

[Orvan]

Originally posted by ssaddict
But we all know cornering is probably 95% rider and body position... not bike.

I concur......90% rider 3% tires 2% bike, and 5% when someone is taking a picture of you...

 

[mack]

i have emilinated the rotec, its jsut to damn long and weird looking, i like the F4 allot, the nicolai seems like allot of money for a strange suspension desing that iv never riden, so it comes down to the battle of
chumbawunba F4 Vs. Cannondale gemini DH

WAIT and seem (untill i get the 2d's!)
i am probably going to get the c dale cus it pedals better and isnt so DH only specific.

 

[mike425]

I know you said youve narrowed it down to the Chumba Wumba and the 'dale, but im going to throw another in the mix, sorry if someones already said this but, PDC Racing DH-One. Ive just spent a weekend riding this bike and to say it is sh!t hot is an understatment. The bike pedals like nothing ive ever ridden(DH Team, Tomac 204, Rotec, M1) and it just sticks to the ground in corner, I can guarantee youll not see many around as well.

http://www.pdcracing.com/

mike

 

[mack]

I KNOW THAT BIKE! yeah, i saw it earlier and i heard it kicked some major ass, despite its funny look, damn, they got a good offer for the frame, 888 and a hadley hub. damn, this bikes stuff is tuff...

there are too many frame companys out there:angry:

 

[Burnwood]

The PDC doesn't look all that strange in person. It's actually quite impressive...

...Friggin impossible to manual, but damn does that bike ride nicely...

 

[Jm_]

another "best pedaling EVER!" bike!!

 

[ragin-sagin]

has anybody nominated a bike they don't own? That being said my foes corners like a mofo...at least compared to the big hit I used to ride...

 

[leprechaun]

MY trek y 22 is the only bike i have ever ridden and it corner awesome!


Really though if cornering is the most important thing in your new dh bike then look for one that has:
1-low BB
2-low pivot point
3-short wheelbase.
All 3 of these things may negatively affect the bike in other ways though-if you are short then you may have seat buzz issues,and may be less stable at speed.
Also cornering areound flat corners is different than steep drop in types.Head angle would be on the list but if the head angle is too steep then it may not work as well in steep corners.
That being said the Turner DHR is one of the best.Old M1's were great (when the chainstays were bolted in the'short'wheelbase 17" setting)except for flex which by the way matters no matter who you are.Most 4 bar bikes are essentially low pivot bikes since they ultimately curve foreward toward the end of the travel.Personally i have found the Ventana El Cuervo to be a good mix of pivot height and wheelbase to corner well and have good high speed stability since the pivot is up a little bit more than a turner but still lower than most "single pivot" bikes.
So repeat after me-low,stiff and quick makes for good cornering.
Yes Steve Peat and Cedric corner fast on higher pivot bikes,but they are goung around corners at warp 6 throwing rear side knobs into the crowd.I'm talking about bikes for the rest of us!

 

[ragin-sagin]

word up leprechaun

 

[Jm_]

Originally posted by Acadian
how would you know if does/doesn't corner well if you don't own, or never owned one?

Well...i've owned a couple, and out of the 3 that i've owned I said which one was the best (not the current one I am riding on).

That said, I think whatever bike I buy next will be the BEST CORNERING AND PEDALING BIKE EVER!

 

[kidwoo]

Originally posted by leprechaun
MY trek y 22 is the only bike i have ever ridden and it corner awesome!

aw whaddah you know?

You just jump off of cliffs n stuff.

I seen it in the videos and I ain't never seen a video of you turnin' so it must be true

Besides, you only weigh 98 lbs anyway. That combined with your riding ability makes any bike turn well for you.

But it's ok, I know scott whips you guys and docks pay if you don't spam the cuervo. It's cinco de mayo so it's appropriate anyway. *hiccup*

 

[John Sullivan`]

Not to be biased here Mack but I will be, this time.

How can you call the new Rotecs long?? I know we haven't met, and correct me if we have. But I am quite sure you haven't had the chance to ride our new bike (thats fitted for you) down a course but you should if you have the chance.

Will you be at Big Bear? You'll be quite surprised how well it handles the corners, pedals and feels.

Mack, Its not a fancy setup and it doesn't have a complicated linkage system. It doesn't have fancy sticker or a zillion dollar marketing blitz to show it off. But what it does offer is a simple design for the privateer and the pro alike and at a great value for a made in the USA frame!

Its easy to maintain, its swingarm is superstiff, it comes in either a 1.5 or 1.125 head tube, its offered in either 8 or 9" travel setups, it offers 3 head angle adjustments and 3 seatmast adjustments.

It has a progressive 5th Element rear shock and a frame that was designed to live quite nicely in either a linear or progressive world.

It comes with a 12mm thru axle, 8" floating rear brake system, a built in hopey steering damper system mount (no more headset issues) and a fork stop as well as a shotpeened finish to stress relive the frame, brit-dipped and anodized in 4 different colors for the bling

Its weight ain't to bad either for 9"s of travel (our race bikes are 41.5 pounds as of Sea Otter).

It has a low CG as well as a low bb (14.4 with 8" and 14.75 with 9") and well over 50% of the frames weight is located at the lower half of the frame.

The small has a 44" wb, the med a 45" wb and the lg a 46". TT are effective at 20, 21 and 22".

The old rotecs of the past only came in one size, which btw when built had an average wb of 48.5"!!!

Now Mack, thats LONG! And remember it had the funky linkage to boot!

Don't know if you would like to see or ride one of the new moto dh9's. But I think you should as you may have confused the newest 2004 design to the older 1997-2002 designs which were super long and had that funky linkage below the bb. If you get the chance, check out the Feb 2004 (#44) issue of DIRT magazine from the UK. Those guys are pickier then most as to what works well in their world and I was quite surprised and pleased on their thoughts.

After becoming involved with Rotec, the biggest challange faced has been its image from the past. The longish WB and sometimes faulty linkage design from that past era are gone, never to return.

Its been an endless battle to rebuild the name and reputation of Rotec Cycles since we accquired the company in 2002, but I believe we're on the right track and its begining to show with the results our Factory riders are begining to gather this 2004 season.

For a new bike design that so many people haven't seen or ridden I can't get over how many say it doesn't pedal or jump well or couldn't handle the corners or is to heavy. Mack don't take it the wrong way, its not only you. I've been dealing with this mis-information ever since a magazine came out with their Oct 2002 issue showing the last moto-link that we produced.

After having that bike for almost 10 months to review they released that issue and review at the 2002 Interbike show where we were showcasing our newly redesigned (looks nothing like the old) Moto Dh9 and Fr8 models. Of course the first thing that people said was, Hey look! theres that long ass limo length Rotec thats in the newest issue of @#$ magazine!

For crying out loud! We can't even get a break at our own party!

Anyhow, having our newest female pro Amelia Colasurdo ride a Moto Dh9 to an 8th place finish at the 2004 Sea Otter was a stunning achivement for her as well as us

Jimmy Coarasa our mens pro, took a 40th place as well. Granted he didn't do as well as he may have liked but thats racing folks. Btw he took 2nd in semi the year before at the Otter on a proto moto dh9 which upgraded him to pro for the 2003 season.

You can make any conclusion you wish and you should, but I wanted to put in my 2 cents in regarding a fair shake for our product. Only time will diminish the bad light our bikes may have had in its past.

I just want to give the new Rotecs the best chance possible to be seen in and shine in a positive light!

Folks, don't be hating! I know it was a long response but I thank you for understanding and putting up with it.

And Mack, if you are going to be at Big Bear, let me set one up for you so you can take it for a scoot! You won't be dissapointed!

Or I would hope not!

Cheers,

 

[Freak]

Damn Sully!!! You sure do like to talk a lot!!!!:devil:

 

[John Sullivan`]

What you talking bout Willis!

 

[scottishmark]

amazing how the Giant was suggested and ignored in one fluid movement

if someone can give a good reason for it not being one if the best cornering bikes around i'd quite like to hear it

 

[UiUiUiUi]

Originally posted by Acadian
Stoney98 will answer you! :devil:

if the rumors on the internet are true, no bike will corner well with stoney on board


btw i am to lazy to read tat whole thread, are you talking about overall cornering, or how a bike handles tight turns or how it handles fast maybe offcamber turns?

 

[ÆX]

Originally posted by scottishmark
amazing how the Giant was suggested and ignored in one fluid movement

if someone can give a good reason for it not being one if the best cornering bikes around i'd quite like to hear it

if i was to buy a - dh bike right now it would be a giant.

 

[neversummersnow]

The giant is a pretty impressive platform, I too agree w/BCD, it works just fine and can be built pretty light. Some people just had breakage/loosening problems, but Giant sure does HOOK YOU UP if you have any problems....

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Freak
Damn Sully!!! You sure do like to talk a lot!!!!:devil:

LMAO!

I haven't chimed in about the Rotec because I own a beloved Old School 1997-2002 style rig. (See Below)

The NEW Rotecs are much shorter than mine. Their #'s are inline with current rigs and their desired measurements. (see below) I know the pics aren't great for comparison but they show that they are not similiar beasts.

 

[Jm_]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA

The NEW Rotecs are much shorter than mine. Their #'s are inline with current rigs and their desired measurements. (see below) I know the pics aren't great for comparison but they show that they are not similiar beasts.

It looks like they went to a 24" rear wheel to do so?

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Jm_
It looks like they went to a 24" rear wheel to do so?

New Rotecs are running 26" rims. But yes, I believe that bike is running a 24" rim in that picture. You can run both.

A big change is the TT length. It is much shorter than the old versions. Look at my rig... than look at the new version.

My old Rotec with the mast in the rear position....which puts the imaginary seat tube going down just in front of the BB (not laid back much at all) is around 26" the new TT's are shorter and more in line with the current trend in bike designs.

Mine is a Mammoth Kamakazi Killer! The new ones are up to date DH racers.

Rhino

 

[dropmachine]

There are a new batch of swingarms coming that will accomodate a 26" tire. When the new Rotec site is done ( ) Sulley will be able to tell you that stuff himself. =)