[Alloy]

I did not sign it and I will not sign it for 3 specific reasons.

First, The statement as it is presented is not in my opinion accurate. The well-being of this sport was threatened long before the closure of BB. Saying that closure of "these sites can be permantly avoided by means of more responsible trail use" is very vague, but despite its vagueness is still able to be inaccurate. Responsible trail use, meaning riding only on Forest Service approved trails (and many alterations to the trails, including race courses were outside the lines of approval from the Forest Service), would result in even less draw than in previous years. Which leads to my second reson for not signing. It's simply not financially feasible to run a dh mountain without pouring a lot of time and effort and investment money into the project. Snow Summit isn't willing to do it, and the Forest Service wouldn't let them even if SS were willing. So riding trails responsibly isn't going to do jack sh!t. Money talks, and having a few hundred people promise to spend a couple thousand bucks over the course of 4 months is honestly laughable.


Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see BB re-open and present us with some challenging, usable trails that are well-maintained. A petition won't do it. Garnering support from actual business owners might be a better use of effort. Property owners, hotels, restaurants, bike shops, bars.... Still, I doubt you're going to see too many business owners telling us that they really really miss the dh crowd during the summer. We're simply not a large enough presence to justify the expense and effort.

I agree with you that the opening statement is kind of vague. But still someone took the time to set up this petition the least anyone can do is sign up.

If you don't agree with it than leave your own comment. It takes less than 10 seconds to sign up.

http://www.petitiononline.com/downhill/petition.html

 

[Kornphlake]

I threw my signature out, but I with Jefe, I don't think it's going to do a bit of good, there's no indication that the petition will even be brought to snow summit's attention if a significant number of signatures are collected. As with anything online the signatures are essentially annonymous, if I were in snow summit's position I'd want handwritten signatures and private residance addresses for each signature collected so I'd be sure it wasn't a couple of kids with 100 free email addresses a piece.

Has anybody actually been able to show that mountain biking is a significant source of revenu for the town of big bear? It seems like we're always looking for the free campsite, the cheap condo that we can cram 10 guys in and the best place to boil water for ramen noodles. I'd be suprised if summer revenues ever came close to winter revenue even during the mountain bike boom in the early nineties.

 

[Bicyclist]

The fact that there are only 541 signatures at this point is pathetic.

 

[Duzitall]

well at least you whiners are keeping this thread bumped up.

 

[W4S]

I did not sign it and I will not sign it for 3 specific reasons.

You won't sign this petition because you don't think it addresses the root cause of denying us access? You won't sign it because you don't think it will do any good to voice your opinion? You won't sign this petition yet you won't do anything to help out DH'ing? Sounds like solid logic to me.

With the attitude, maybe somebody will put an f'in golf course in Aliso Woods Park. :mumble:

 

[ncrider]

There is a bigger story to be told here. First of all I agree that the petition may do little to persuade BB (i signed it anyway). Hell BB suffered huge financial losses. However, the petition is an indicator to the level of interest for lift accessed riding. In that, it can be used as an incentive piece for other local mountains as to the possibility of opening to DH. If tons of signatures showed up on this petition and we actually formed a strong voice about or wants, then it could at least open the door to begin talks with local mountians. I wouldn't imagine to see any change for this year, but perhaps by next summer. Anyway, to simply roll over and do nothing only signals that we (moutain bikers) aren't really that interested in having a local mountain provide lift access. I know thats not true...right?

 

[Duzitall]

I know thats not true...right?

RIGHT!

 

[merrrrjig]

I signed it!

 

[WheelieMan]

I threw my signature out, but I with Jefe, I don't think it's going to do a bit of good, there's no indication that the petition will even be brought to snow summit's attention if a significant number of signatures are collected. As with anything online the signatures are essentially annonymous, if I were in snow summit's position I'd want handwritten signatures and private residance addresses for each signature collected so I'd be sure it wasn't a couple of kids with 100 free email addresses a piece.

Has anybody actually been able to show that mountain biking is a significant source of revenu for the town of big bear? It seems like we're always looking for the free campsite, the cheap condo that we can cram 10 guys in and the best place to boil water for ramen noodles. I'd be suprised if summer revenues ever came close to winter revenue even during the mountain bike boom in the early nineties.

Exactly! Even if there were thousands of people who signed this petition it would mean nothing to Big Bear. I wonder how many people who have signed have: 1) ever been to Big Bear or 2)would plan on going there even if it were open for DH. Probably very few people.

Boy am I glad I don't live in southern california right now.

 

[Duzitall]

That's the spirit. Thanks for your support

 

[Fonzie18]

I did not sign it and I will not sign it for 3 specific reasons.

First, The statement as it is presented is not in my opinion accurate. The well-being of this sport was threatened long before the closure of BB. Saying that closure of "these sites can be permantly avoided by means of more responsible trail use" is very vague, but despite its vagueness is still able to be inaccurate. Responsible trail use, meaning riding only on Forest Service approved trails (and many alterations to the trails, including race courses were outside the lines of approval from the Forest Service), would result in even less draw than in previous years. Which leads to my second reson for not signing. It's simply not financially feasible to run a dh mountain without pouring a lot of time and effort and investment money into the project. Snow Summit isn't willing to do it, and the Forest Service wouldn't let them even if SS were willing. So riding trails responsibly isn't going to do jack sh!t. Money talks, and having a few hundred people promise to spend a couple thousand bucks over the course of 4 months is honestly laughable.


Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see BB re-open and present us with some challenging, usable trails that are well-maintained. A petition won't do it. Garnering support from actual business owners might be a better use of effort. Property owners, hotels, restaurants, bike shops, bars.... Still, I doubt you're going to see too many business owners telling us that they really really miss the dh crowd during the summer. We're simply not large enough presence to justify the expense and effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kornphlake
I threw my signature out, but I with Jefe, I don't think it's going to do a bit of good, there's no indication that the petition will even be brought to snow summit's attention if a significant number of signatures are collected. As with anything online the signatures are essentially annonymous, if I were in snow summit's position I'd want handwritten signatures and private residance addresses for each signature collected so I'd be sure it wasn't a couple of kids with 100 free email addresses a piece.

Has anybody actually been able to show that mountain biking is a significant source of revenu for the town of big bear? It seems like we're always looking for the free campsite, the cheap condo that we can cram 10 guys in and the best place to boil water for ramen noodles. I'd be suprised if summer revenues ever came close to winter revenue even during the mountain bike boom in the early nineties.



Exactly! Even if there were thousands of people who signed this petition it would mean nothing to Big Bear. I wonder how many people who have signed have: 1) ever been to Big Bear or 2)would plan on going there even if it were open for DH. Probably very few people.

Boy am I glad I don't live in southern california right now.

All the time spent answering a question nobody asked, you could have signed the petition 4 times. Even if you didn't care about the Mountain, and couldn't care less about the future of Downhilling in SoCal (heck, in the U.S.)... This thread was started to let people know about, not ask why or why not they signed the petition.

Even though this petition might not do a thing, I think it is badass that people still care and still have hope..

I'm FOR DH racing and riding.

 

[W4S]

Exactly! Even if there were thousands of people who signed this petition it would mean nothing to Big Bear. I wonder how many people who have signed have: 1) ever been to Big Bear or 2)would plan on going there even if it were open for DH. Probably very few people.

Boy am I glad I don't live in southern california right now.

Why don't you quit posting on this subject, assjack. You've managed to hit the reply button three times while engaging your brain zero times, you're parents must be happy.

 

[Bicyclist]

you're parents must be happy

YOUR parents must be happy, too...

 

[WheelieMan]

Why don't you quit posting on this subject, assjack. You've managed to hit the reply button three times while engaging your brain zero times, you're parents must be happy.

Jeez people, you get angry awful easily.

I just think that it's going to take alot more than a petition on the internet for anything to change.

 

[I R Ron]

I singed. I just started riding, and I was planning to go riding there during summer break. Snow summit is like 1-2hours from my house, not including the ride up. How does the downhill work. You have to ride you bike to the top right? I would be so cool if you can use the lifts. I sound stupid, sorry Im a noob.

 

[Duzitall]

it's ok noob, just sign the petition and maybe someday you too can hang your bike on a hook.

EDIT: sorry I missed the first thing you said was that you signed

 

[W4S]

Jeez people, you get angry awful easily.

I just think that it's going to take alot more than a petition on the internet for anything to change.

Not angry, I just don't understand your contentions. All you've done is state the obvious, and you have not added anything positive. I think that's called "kicking a dead horse". I'm pretty sure we all know that a simple petition won't change anything, but we have to start somewhere. None of us are in congress, we don't have the power to reform tort laws, but we can let people know that we're not happy. Combine that with some smart strategies, maybe one day BB will open again. For the record, I've had a season pass to BB for the last 4 years, I was there every weekend this past summer (except two when I was in Whister). I'm very affected by this closure.

Oh Hucker13, your, not you're. :

 

[Ciaran]

Why don't you quit posting on this subject, assjack. You've managed to hit the reply button three times while engaging your brain zero times, you're parents must be happy.

And why don't you quit being such a jerk. There is no reason to call people names or act like a know it all, which is what you've done. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that they are wrong, or that you're right. People are voicing their OPINIONS... deal with it.

 

[W4S]

And why don't you quit being such a jerk. There is no reason to call people names or act like a know it all, which is what you've done. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that they are wrong, or that you're right. People are voicing their OPINIONS... deal with it.

What's that saying, opinions are like a-holes....

Back up your opinions with some topical knowledge.

 

[Kornphlake]

Not angry, I just don't understand your contentions. All you've done is state the obvious, and you have not added anything positive. I think that's called "kicking a dead horse". I'm pretty sure we all know that a simple petition won't change anything, but we have to start somewhere. None of us are in congress, we don't have the power to reform tort laws, but we can let people know that we're not happy. Combine that with some smart strategies, maybe one day BB will open again. For the record, I've had a season pass to BB for the last 4 years, I was there every weekend this past summer (except two when I was in Whister). I'm very affected by this closure.

Oh Hucker13, your, not you're. :

I'm willing to provide my support for just about any cause, I'm not going to have a pie in the sky attitude about how much impact my one signature on this petition will actually have though. I'd rather see some kind of active demonstration organized, say 150 riders gather at the base of Snow Summit with DH bikes and gear to push their bikes up a forrest service road and ride down on the same forrest service property. That shows a lot more dedication to the sport than a few hundred signatures. I know what will happen to that idea though, the date will conflict with a southridge race, half who promise to attend in spite of the southridge race will not be able to find a ride, a few dozen will decide to shuttle some local trail, and there will be 7 die hard mountain bikers pushing their bikes up the hill in protest unnoticed by anybody.

I've tried to organize trail work locally and gotten great responses but everybody bails for one reason or another when it's time to dig. I don't think we're as dedicated as we pretend to be, but I'd love for someone to prove me wrong.

 

[BMXman]

geez we can't even support eachother concerning a simple petition.... until gravity riders ban together it's hopeless...D

 

[Ciaran]

I'm tired of arguing, and hijacking this thread so I am going to try and be truly constructive...

Here's a challenge for you, Business Boy... Since you are so well versed in all things business, what do we have to do to sell any of the local resorts on lift assisted mountain biking? How do we present our sport to them as a product that can make them money? And then SELL them on the idea/product? Obviously a petition with electronic signatures won't do it. 10 of us pushing our bikes up the hill won't do it. So how do we present this to these owners and managers of the ski resorts in such a manner that it is attractive to them financially? And I am serious too... if there is a way, I will donate a ton of my own time to help.

Another idea: Since one of the main reasons for the closure and lack of interist from other resorts is the insurance issue, how do we get around this? What if we organized a private DH club. We organize it as a non-profit corporation, carry our own insurance (if that's possible) or require that all riders provide proof of their own medical insurance. 18 or older (sorry kids, but your parents can sue), some serious waivers that are not only signed, but notarized. We partner with a resort who is a direct competitor of Snow Summit, such as Snow Valley, and arrange to have the lifts open on certain days of the year with a gaurantee that X many of our riders will attend thus giving them X amount of dollars for the day. Obviously this is very labor intensive as people need to run the day to day operation of the club, but if it works...
I am partially getting this idea from my other hobby, the SCA, which is a medieval recreation society. Now, we do full speed, full contact combat using wooden swords. Bones get broken, people get hurt. We (the society) carry our own insurance, and we are a non-prof. Can we (the gravity riders) do the same?

So I ask all of you, especially those of you who are in SoCal, and are responsible, and will follow through on a committment... How can we make either of these ideas work? Am I just hugely naive and are these just pipe dreams? (I don't think so) If you know about insurance, business, organization, or anything along those lines and can help tell us what you know.

Any other ideas? Thoughts?

 

[Kornphlake]

That's the kind of ideas we need to see, this kind of thinking will get us into the resorts. You just need somebody to step up to the plate and really look into what it will take to get the insurance and negotiate a contract with a ski resort to run the lifts during the summer. You see, what you've done is set a goal, defined the obstacles keeping you from the goal and found a way to get around or over those obstacles. The petition does none of that.

What does the SCA charge for membership fees? I'm thinking that a norba membership could easily be substituted for a bike club fee and the price for a race weekend would end up about the same for the racer, the resort would get more because they wouldn't have the burden of insurance and we'd all come out on top. I'd think most of us would put our money where our mouth is to get a club running, even if there won't be races planned for the first couple of seasons.

 

[El Jefe]

You won't sign this petition because you don't think it addresses the root cause of denying us access? You won't sign it because you don't think it will do any good to voice your opinion? You won't sign this petition yet you won't do anything to help out DH'ing? Sounds like solid logic to me.

With the attitude, maybe somebody will put an f'in golf course in Aliso Woods Park. :mumble:

Umm, yeah, I hope you're joking here. Of course I've never organized a protest in Aliso to generate attention to county issues regarding access and possible parcelling of land. No, I've never attended county meetings regarding trail access, or done trail work, or spoken with the management of Snow Summit and Forest Service representatives. Oh wait.... I have.

 

[ncrider]

I'm tired of arguing, and hijacking this thread so I am going to try and be truly constructive...

So I ask all of you, especially those of you who are in SoCal, and are responsible, and will follow through on a committment...

I'm am 100% behind you on this idea. In fact I think it is the first truly constructive idea I've read to date. I would be more than willing to put forth my time to such a cause. i have worked for non- profits and will contact them regarding the steps needed to make this happen. Feel free to PM me and we could get some more ideas down on paper.

 

[downhillzeypher]

I'm tired of arguing, and hijacking this thread so I am going to try and be truly constructive...

Here's a challenge for you, Business Boy... Since you are so well versed in all things business, what do we have to do to sell any of the local resorts on lift assisted mountain biking? How do we present our sport to them as a product that can make them money? And then SELL them on the idea/product? Obviously a petition with electronic signatures won't do it. 10 of us pushing our bikes up the hill won't do it. So how do we present this to these owners and managers of the ski resorts in such a manner that it is attractive to them financially? And I am serious too... if there is a way, I will donate a ton of my own time to help.

Another idea: Since one of the main reasons for the closure and lack of interist from other resorts is the insurance issue, how do we get around this? What if we organized a private DH club. We organize it as a non-profit corporation, carry our own insurance (if that's possible) or require that all riders provide proof of their own medical insurance. 18 or older (sorry kids, but your parents can sue), some serious waivers that are not only signed, but notarized. We partner with a resort who is a direct competitor of Snow Summit, such as Snow Valley, and arrange to have the lifts open on certain days of the year with a gaurantee that X many of our riders will attend thus giving them X amount of dollars for the day. Obviously this is very labor intensive as people need to run the day to day operation of the club, but if it works... I am getting this idea from my other hobby... The SCA, which is a medieval recreation society. Now, we do full speed, full contact combat using wooden swords. Bones get broken, people get hurt. We (the society) carry our own insurance, and we are a non-prof. Can we (the gravity riders) do the same?

So I ask all of you, especially those of you who are in SoCal, and are responsible, and will follow through on a committment... How can we make either of these ideas work? Am I just hugely naive and are these just pipe dreams? (I don't think so) If you know about insurance, business, organization, or anything along those lines and can help tell us what you know.

Any other ideas? Thoughts?

I don't know about that whole over 18 thing... If you look at the local races around here, I'd say a good portion (20%) of the racers are not yet adults. That leaves ~80% of DH'er who are eligble, and then, a lot of the adults bring their kids riding, how many are going to ditch the mini to go by him/herself? (let say half of those parents are still willing to go.) That leaves about 70% of eligible riders. How much money can 70% of us swing?! We have enough trouble ponying up enough cash with ALL the riders. I'm sorry if this makes absolutely no sense, but the point is, minors ARE a big part and we want in!!!

EDIT: But however minor I am, I'm still willing to help! PM me if you have any ideas and I'll see what I can do.

EDIT2: heh... this is my 666th post...

 

[Ciaran]

I don't know about that whole over 18 thing... If you look at the local races around here, I'd say a good portion (20%) of the racers are not yet adults. That leaves ~80% of DH'er who are eligble, and then, a lot of the adults bring their kids riding, how many are going to ditch the mini to go by him/herself? (let say half of those parents are still willing to go.) That leaves about 70% of eligible riders. How much money can 70% of us swing?! We have enough trouble ponying up enough cash with ALL the riders. I'm sorry if this makes absolutely no sense, but the point is, minors ARE a big part and we want in!!!

EDIT: But however minor I am, I'm still willing to help! PM me if you have any ideas and I'll see what I can do.

EDIT2: heh... this is my 666th post...

None for you! Muahahaha!

Seriously though, you make a very good point. I was just brainstorming in that post... throwing out ideas. Ideally we would want to have everyone involved who wants to be. The issue about minors is that your parents can sue, and I think that you are not legally able to sign a contract such as a waiver. Maybe some kind of noterized waiver signed by the parents would do it. I think if we go forward with any of these plans or ideas we will go into it with the notion that everyone can ride, adults and minors alike.

Hey, it great to see enthusiasm from people. If people really think that these ideas are viable then I am more then willing to contact the SCA and find out how they do it. (They charge 35 a year for dues, including a monthly newsletter mailed to your home, 20 without the newsletter. Keep in mind that the SCA is over 80,000 members strong) I am willing to make many phone calls and make many drives. Hell, I would even wear a suit if it would help! (Of course I would have to buy a suit first). I can donate webspace and e-mail to the effort as well as some cash and good old fashioned manual labor.

I am not too great at organization, and don't have any contacts with the forest service or at any of the local resorts. If someone has these skills or contacts your involvement would be very much appreciated. Maybe we can talk to the Southridge people and see how they run their organization. They seem to be able to pull off DH racing.

I am totally up for this. If anyone else really wants to do this let's contact each other and start organizing. Eventually we'll take over the world! :evil:

 

[Ciaran]

I don't know where you're getting all this "well versed in business" info from but you need to think before you type....and I stopped being called "boy" a very long time ago....D

Not directed at you. It was directed at W4S. I quoted you because I think that you are right. My apologies if I inadvertently insulted you, that was not my intention but I can see how you thought it was directed at you. I should structure my posts better. My apologies!

 

[BMXman]

Not directed at you. It was directed at W4S. I quoted you because I think that you are right. My apologies if I inadvertently insulted you, that was not my intention but I can see how you thought it was directed at you. I should structure my posts better. My apologies!

no worries...I thought you were referring to me....D

 

[Orvan]

A petition won't do it. Garnering support from actual business owners might be a better use of effort. Property owners, hotels, restaurants, bike shops, bars.... Still, I doubt you're going to see too many business owners telling us that they really really miss the dh crowd during the summer. We're simply not a large enough presence to justify the expense and effort.

True. I was actually thinking of maybe lobbying through the local BB Better Business Bureau (If SS is a member) or the local Chamber of Commerce or lastly, the local Association of Business Owners. Sending correspondence to the local Council members or Mayor (part of chair of the council) to get the politics involved may give us a stronger voice. If all else fails, send some of your biker hippie friends from Humboldt or Mendocino to chain themselves at the bottom lift station for a summer hunger strike/protest.

Cuz crap, N* is hella far away.

 

[santacruzer87]

signed

 

[mtbpaint]

Ok i skimmed through this thread and was to lazy to read the long things (sorry) so this was probaly said but i want to say it any ways to feel smart. There's an article in Decline magazine about why Big Bear closed

TWO REASONS
1.there are only like 4 legal trails at Big Bear of course us Downhillers get bored of riding 4 trails over and over. Over the years a couple of kids would quickly move away some bushes and trees and make a small trail that at the beginning never looked like a trails until those kids told two friends and than those two friends told two friends and so on which eventually lead to many people knowing about these illegal trails yet many did not know they were illegal because so many people were riding them it started to look like a real trail. Many sprouted (spelling o well) up all over the mountain which really made Big Bear the place to ride though the trails were illegal and many didnt know that. Big Bear shared the mountain with Forest reservation park ranger people things and agreed to contribute to the land if they were aloud to put skiers and snowboarders on the mountain. That worked out great but to keep employees working year around they decided to let bikers in during spring and summer. Once the illegal trails were found the Forest tree people were pissed...........something like that

2. this guy (name was never mentioned) was going fast and hit a table didnt get a lot of air and hit a steel trail marker and fell and was paralized from the neck down. He was also a wakeboarder MXer skater and all kinds of things besides a biker. He was only 24 and at the begginning had no plan on sueing the mountain. Though with no job, health insurance, and expensive medicine he was starting to lose it and needed money so he sued the mountain, didnt think about how much he loved the sport and how much other people did to only thought about himself and ruined the up coming of many little DHers (ok he might have not been an ass but o well) so with the Tree people up the mountains butt and the paralized guy up the mountains butt they were screwed either way....The End

I signed the petition any ways though but really we'll have to get about the amount of signatures equal to the amount of skiers/boarders taht ride their in the winter. BUT we did it with White Face!

 

[downhillzeypher]

I hate it when people say "I don't have time/I'm too lazy/I'm too much of a flaming homosexual to read this thread..." and then shove in crap that's been covered...

Look, at this point we ALL know why SS closed. Now we want to know how we can bring it back or even bring a new venue in. If you're going to take the time to post, at least read a couple post back to know what's even going on....

 

[BMXman]

well you could just ignore his post like I did

 

[ridecruz888]

764 signatures...nice

 

[mtbpaint]

well you flaming homosexual dick monkey sucker i was on a homosexual dick monkey sucking Laptop in the middle of the homosexual dick monkey sucking campus riding my homosexual dick monkey sucking bike and i did a homosexual dick monkey sucking Huge ass drop WOOOOOT so i figure i put a quick.....yet long post in and when i came home i would read the rest of the posts when i have homosexuality dick monkey sucking time because there is a lot to read, honestly than i just read the title but now i read the whole thread. UH IDIOT! Don't wet yourselves so easily

 

[mtbpaint]

WOW you guys are both from Southern California.

California the city of compton we keep you rocken dunn dunn we keep you rocken now shake it shake it shake it now shake it CALI WOOT WOOOT!

ES!

 

[downhillzeypher]

Hey cool... you're the first person to ever make it on my ignore list... congrats.

 

[Ciaran]

Ok i skimmed through this thread and was to lazy to read the long things (sorry) so this was probaly said but i want to say it any ways to feel smart. There's an article in Decline magazine about why Big Bear closed...

Your best bet is to read the whole thread before commenting and looking like a fool. While I understand that you are just trying to contribute (just like I am giving you the benefit of the doubt), you are just saying what has been said over and over. Quoting a magazine that most people here have already read doesn't help or contribute in any positive way. It's great that you were able to get your local resort to open to DH. Maybe instead of commenting on how much you dislike California because of what the media has shown you, and typing the word "homosexual" over and over you could tell us how you all did it. If all you're going to do is be negative and flame then just STFU. My ideas my be "pie in the sky" but at least we're trying.

 

[mtbpaint]

well i dont think im really embaressing myself because i dont really know who you are and never have i gotten in a argument with a fellow rider. White face isnt a local mountain its like a billion miles away im saying we got it to open with a petition just like this so maybe this will work. PLUS who ever said i was dissing south California my family is from South California holmes

lets keep it cool i am so dearly sorry i repeated myself