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Big Bear suit.....another perspective

R

Rabie

Guest
Damn True said:
SoCal downhillers are upset about losing a great riding and racing spot. I understand the passion, the blind devotion, the selfishness. It's all about getting that next perfect run, getting faster, winning races. On one side of the equation, maybe a thousand people must adjust to the loss of the Snow Summit Sky Chair. On the other side, you have a family that's permanently affected and a guy who will never enjoy the things we take for granted. Which weighs heavier, the inconvenience of a thousand, or the devastation of one? I guess that depends on your perspective.
I can see how this sounds like a sympathetic argument, and this situation naturally draws sympathy, but in the end, it doesn't really hold up since no matter how many Socal downhillers don't ride Big Bear, all that not riding of Big Bear isn't going to make the guy walk again. It's not like you can trade the one for the other.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,762
1,284
NORCAL is the hizzle
Good article. I still think it leaves the question of fault unanswered though. Regardless of how dangerous our sport is, we can't be expected to assume the risk of someone else's poor judgment creating additional hazard. Every situation like this must be evaluated on the specific circumstances, and this is one where it's pretty close. It sounds like BB was using customary methods for marking the course (rebar/pvc), but there is some question about placement. I have a lot of sympathy for the injured rider but just can't help ask if anyone, the injured rider included, ever commented on the marker placement before the accident. Sounds like he was very familiar with the course. Not clear if it was a practice or race run (don't remember if it was mentioned elsewhere), but you'd think that if something was clearly in the wrong place he, or someone else, would have complained and tried to get it relocated. If there were complaints and they were ignored, or the marker was added after people had already done a bunch of runs, that swings toward BB being at fault. But if nobody said anything and it was there the whole time, that swings it the other way. I mean if the course was marked in the industry-standard, customary way, and nobody complained after multiple riders did multiple runs, the riders who decided to ride near the markers (even if that was the "fast line") were taking their own chances. I think the markers are there for a lot of reasons, including to keep some riders from taking shortcuts...more flexible markers won't do that...in some ways the markers should be seen as additional hazardous obstacles to be avoided, like big rocks, ruts, etc.
 

Kornphlake

Turbo Monkey
Oct 8, 2002
2,632
1
Portland, OR
interesting, Lee feels like it is the right of the injured to conjure up lawsuits to somehow have society pay for thier disability. And I thought that that huge chunk of my pay check called disability insurance, unemployment and whatever BS taxes are taken out are to pay for that. Do I feel bad for what happend to the rider, yes, would I be concerned about my own finances if the same thing were to happen to me, yes. What would have happened if the same accident happened at an illegal race on an illegal trail or even on a trail ride on public property? What if I crash my car into a telephone pole because I loose control and I become paralyzed, do I have the right to sue the telephone company or the county responsible for building the road, I don't know, it seems a little far fetched to me, but if I were in the situation fighting to retain my quality of life I might consider any options.
 

-BB-

I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo
Sep 6, 2001
4,254
28
Livin it up in the O.C.
Lee likes bikes said:
I don't know whether the lawsuit is driven by him, his family or his insurance company, but I do know it's not driven by greed. We're talking about a man in his mid-twenties, a union tradesman moving up the pay scale, with 30+ lost earning years, never-ending health care bills and an irrevocably ****ed up life. How much is that worth? In the end $25 million comes far, far short of compensating him for what he lost.

SoCal downhillers are upset about losing a great riding and racing spot. I understand the passion, the blind devotion, the selfishness. It's all about getting that next perfect run, getting faster, winning races. On one side of the equation, maybe a thousand people must adjust to the loss of the Snow Summit Sky Chair. On the other side, you have a family that's permanently affected and a guy who will never enjoy the things we take for granted. Which weighs heavier, the inconvenience of a thousand, or the devastation of one? I guess that depends on your perspective.
This is like saying that we are selfish b/c we all read the paper, and if we were forced to give up our newspapers so that he could pay his medical bills, it would be fair.

Is the 25mil going to help him? YES...
Is it fair that WE have to pay for his mistake? NO!!

The poles that BigBear use are the same ones that I've seen at every other race I've been to. This was not BigBears fault, nor was it our fault... it was the riders fault.
Therefore, we (and big bear) should not be the ones that suffer.
 

bushwacker

Monkey
Aug 21, 2003
224
0
Norcal :/
OGRipper said:
we can't be expected to assume the risk of someone else's poor judgment creating additional hazard.
Want to bet?
I signed a waiver this year that had a line it it like this:
"You cannot hold us responsible for anything bad that occurs. Even if it is due to our own gross negligence, bad decision, or stupidity."

I signed that waiver, and I know a whole lot of monkey's that were at that same race and signed it too.
If someone still has a copy of the GGG race waiver, post the exact quote.
 

pZyteX

Monkey
Jan 28, 2003
294
0
Amsterdam
He does have a point with the marker pole. I once fell right on top of one with my stomach and I was very glad it bent

But still 25 million might be a bit extreme.
He also writes about hospital bills, in my opinion if you do a dangerous sport you should be properly insured.
 
I'v been listening to all the trashing of this guy, thinking to myself, 'there's more to the story, some gross negligence we're not aware of.'

I read this story hoping to find this negligence. It may still be there, but this story does not expose it. Just because this guy crashed, and now his life has changed forever, does not make BB responsible. It is a horrible and tragic event, but his condition (paralyzed) does not justify a lawsuit, negligence that caused his condition does. If BB was responsible for this accident, they should pay every cent requested, if not.....well that's the risk we all take when riding/racing.

I do feel bad and hope he makes the best of his life.
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,841
19
So Cal
I have a question for those of you that race... Do you all walk the course before you ride it? Do you look for unusual obstacles and the like? I am curious because I used to race karts and cars but never bikes. No one would ever take their car on the track without walking it first. The reason we do that is to check for anything unusual on the racing surface... rocks, cracks, rubber laid down in unusual patterns, etc. Every driver after walking the track has the options of: a) Accepting the course as safe and racing, Not accepting the course as safe and not racing, and b) Bringing up saftey issues/hazards to the race officials so that they can decide if the course is too dangerous to run.

I am wondering if this fellow had walked the course and taken note of the course markers and such. As to whether or not SS/TBB was negligent I do not know... I don't have any race experience and cannot give an informed opinion.
 

Jeremy R

<b>x</b>
Nov 15, 2001
9,703
1,067
behind you with a snap pop
narlus said:
OGRipper's comments about not complaining about the marker placement prior to the fateful run are right on. i don't see a case.
I agree. It's not another perspective, it is just the same one we have already heard. There has to be more details to this case than what we know now. This article just said he clipped a course marker and crashed. I don't know of a DHer on the planet who has not crashed form a course marker, whether it is poorly placed or not. This guy's injuries are absolutely terrible, and again I wish him the very best, but there has to be more to this lawsuit for sure.
 
Ciaran said:
I have a question for those of you that race... Do you all walk the course before you ride it? Do you look for unusual obstacles and the like? I am curious because I used to race karts and cars but never bikes. No one would ever take their car on the track without walking it first. The reason we do that is to check for anything unusual on the racing surface... rocks, cracks, rubber laid down in unusual patterns, etc. Every driver after walking the track has the options of: a) Accepting the course as safe and racing, Not accepting the course as safe and not racing, and b) Bringing up saftey issues/hazards to the race officials so that they can decide if the course is too dangerous to run.

I am wondering if this fellow had walked the course and taken note of the course markers and such. As to whether or not SS/TBB was negligent I do not know... I don't have any race experience and cannot give an informed opinion.
Yes, I always walk the course first. But I've also had the course changed between practice and the race runs.
Would you consider that negligent??
 

Echo

crooked smile
Jul 10, 2002
11,819
15
Slacking at work
Ciaran said:
I have a question for those of you that race... Do you all walk the course before you ride it? Do you look for unusual obstacles and the like? I am curious because I used to race karts and cars but never bikes. No one would ever take their car on the track without walking it first.
In SCCA solo races we were required to walk the course, if you didn't show up for the course walk through they wouldn't let you race.
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,658
65
behind the viewfinder
most races i've seen have the riders walk it before anyone is allowed on the course w/ a bike. of course, it's not mandatory, but it's a good idea. still just walking the course isn't enough, because although you think you see the line, other options will open when you take certain sections at different speeds, see lines get burned in or blown out, or see what faster riders do for line choice.
 

Jeremy R

<b>x</b>
Nov 15, 2001
9,703
1,067
behind you with a snap pop
PsychO!1 said:
Yes, I always walk the course first. But I've also had the course changed between practice and the race runs.
Would you consider that negligent??
See that is another problem. Our sport is so grassroots ghetto that half the time then the course is changed or markers are removed, it is done by the racers unofficially. This kind of stuff happens all the time. And normally it is to make the course safer, but not always. It is just another risk we have to put up with.
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,841
19
So Cal
Jeremy R said:
Our sport is so grassroots ghetto ... It is just another risk we have to put up with.
It's beginning to sound to me like the sport really is ghetto. Personally I feel that one should not have to put up with risks such as courses being changed mid race, or competitors moving or changing things on the course. Like I said, I have never raced bikes (well, a little BMX when I was a kid), so I could be off base here, but it sounds like the people running the races (TBB, NORBA, whoever) had no idea of how racing should be run.

I still want to try some racing, but I now know to be extra careful and safe out there.
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,785
1
Claremont, CA
Hmmm...interesting take. Maybe the guy is entitled to something. I mean, rebar/PVC as a course marker = probably a bad idea. But $25M? Well, it'll probably get settled out of court for much less, I'd guess. Also, it's still DH, you know. What if this same accident happened but it was because the guy clipped a pedal on a rock? What if it was a manmade obstacle (short ladder or wooden jump)? Would the resort still be liable. I'd hope not, and I'm not sure that this hypothetical case is any different from what actually happened. Also, the notion that this whole thing is somehow good for the sport is, simply, really stupid. Don't insult all of us by even suggesting that.
 

erikkellison

Monkey
Jan 28, 2004
918
0
Denver, CO
PsychO!1 said:
I'v been listening to all the trashing of this guy, thinking to myself, 'there's more to the story, some gross negligence we're not aware of.'
I wouldn't be too sure of that. There are a few lawsuits out there that I can think of that come to mind that the plantiff's won for millions upon millions of dollars, and yet there was no good reason for them to have won at all. A kid crashed into a brick column on a sidewalk, and sued the school for the placement of the column, and won. A thief jumped a fence into someone's yard to break into the house from the back (yes, the motives were exposed in court), and landed on a rusty nail in a board, and sued for negligence on the houseowner's part, and won. A thief was attempting to break into a house through a skylight, fell through and broke his leg, and sued the houseowner (for who knows what), and won. My business law professor explained these cases to me as examples of how the law can be abused.
Another thing. Not that I am paralyzed, but I think $25 million dollars is a heck of a lot of money to compensate for any kind of injury, even death (unless he has roughly $25 million in medical bills that his insurance won't cover*). I think more often times than not, people are getting money because they want it and their lawyers can get it for them. This is wrong. It is also asinine to assume that money can provide for quality of life. Just ask a monk or a nun. I personally think money is a poor compensator for things lost, even if there doesn't seem to be a better one in this case.
Now, this is all assuming that it was somehow not the rider's fault for crashing. Everything on a course is a hazard, and it's not like the course builders intentionally put that marker there to make people crash. If you're not good enough to avoid the marker, that's your problem, and it's certainly not the course builders' fault. I'm surprised someone hasn't come up with a way to sue for tree placement yet.
I got from LLB that the guy didn't decide to sue until well after the fact. If BB was at fault, don't you think he would have been clamoring to sue them the moment he could think straight? It seems more to me (an uninformed member of the peanut gallery) that he was approached by a lawyer with a promising situation, and accepted to attempt what the laywer was proposing.
*Finally comes insurance. I recently switched jobs (about a year ago), and would not ride while I was not covered by insurance on anything but a trail ride. I knew that I couldn't afford to cover the medical bills if I sustained a major injury. I don't know if he had insurance or not, but it seems to me that it's your own fault if you make a mistake on a course, crash, and don't have ample insurance to cover your injuries.
Any argument of that he was trying to win and take the fastest line and suffered from a poorly placed marker is invalid because that marker was part of the course, and if you can't stay on the course, it's your own fault.
If there is anything that anyone knows that drastically changes this situation, I would love to hear it so I don't have to chalk up this as another ridiculous lawsuit in the good Ol' US of A.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
While i agree that what happenned is tragic, and that even 25 million cannot possibly make up for what he has lost, i still do not see BB being responsible.

He walked the course (probably), he pre rode it in practice, and then he had an accident race run. We all know how dangerous race runs are, you go all out, usually too hard if you are not some uber pro. You crash.

Granted what happenned to him is really really crappy, i wouldn't wish it on anyone, especially someone as good as Lee says this guy was. The point is, SOMEONE is pushing a lawuit forward in his name, and it is no one responsibility but his own.

Rebar or breakaway..wouldnt have made any difference. You clip/hook ANYTHING with your pedal at speed, and you are going over the bars. A breakaway pole does so 6" up...not at ground level.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,762
1,284
NORCAL is the hizzle
bushwacker said:
Want to bet?
I signed a waiver this year that had a line it it like this:
"You cannot hold us responsible for anything bad that occurs. Even if it is due to our own gross negligence, bad decision, or stupidity."

I signed that waiver, and I know a whole lot of monkey's that were at that same race and signed it too.
If someone still has a copy of the GGG race waiver, post the exact quote.
Sure I'll bet, what do you want to wager?

Check it: In California release waivers are not effective to exept someone from fraud, willful injury, or violation of law, or if it offends public policy. They work against simple negligence but are not airtight.

There are limits to each racer's assumption of risk. You wouldn't blame the racer if a course marshall made a grossly negligent, bad and stupid decision to put a stick through your front wheel would you? No you would hold them responsible. The question here is whether BB's conduct rose to the level that it was so stupid they should be held to the same standard as if they meant it.

I don't think so, but we don't know enough. Like I said earlier, if they ignored complaints that weighs against BB.
 

Eigil

Monkey
Feb 26, 2003
218
0
East County
He knew this could happen beforehand, and I sympathize with him, but come on dude.

Edit: I read Lee's thing. He's questioning the material and placement of the marker? Eat ****. If he couldn't stay away from it, SLOW DOWN. If he WAS trying to stay away from it, that means he made a mistake, and as I see it, HE made the mistake, and HE has to live with the reprocussions, as horrible as they are. I just lost a lot of sympathy for the guy. **** happens.
 

Orvan

....................
Mar 5, 2002
1,492
2
Califor-N.I.A.
Rebar, PVC, markers, blah blah blah.... it's as risky and customary as being routed through rock gardens (ie. the yard sale) and drops and jumps. All part of racing and racers know it.

This was "john's" second and final run (albeit several practice runs) on the same course.
 

biggins

Rump Junkie
May 18, 2003
7,173
9
"He clipped a course marker. And now he's permanently disabled. I defy anyone in this situation to accept permanent disability as "part of the sport."

well ya know this statement is a little rediculous. Being permanently disabled is a part of wrecking it can happen to anyone. It happened to me. I am permanently disabled from my accident but im not filing a suit against the City of Asheville. I messed up and wrecked.

Course markers are there for a reason. Suing over that would be like a driver suiing nascar or the track owner cause they hit a wall.
 
OGRipper said:
I don't think so, but we don't know enough. Like I said earlier, if they ignored complaints that weighs against BB.
That's it exactly....we are all making assumptions, when we don't ANY of the facts.

BB may have been responsible....we don't know, he may be a sue happy prick....we don't know.

There are a lot of frivilous (sp?) lawsuits in this country, so, it's easy to hop on that band wagon. But without the WHOLE story, we can't make the call.

I always hear the McDonalds Hot Coffee Suit as an example of frivilous suits, but when you know thw whole story, McDonalds was negligent (sp?) and responsible.
 

Eigil

Monkey
Feb 26, 2003
218
0
East County
PsychO!1 said:
That's it exactly....we are all making assumptions, when we don't ANY of the facts.

BB may have been responsible....we don't know, he may be a sue happy prick....we don't know.

There are a lot of frivilous (sp?) lawsuits in this country, so, it's easy to hop on that band wagon. But without the WHOLE story, we can't make the call.

I always hear the McDonalds Hot Coffee Suit as an example of frivilous suits, but when you know thw whole story, McDonalds was negligent (sp?) and responsible.
I'm basing my opinion on what Lee said this guy said. I would believe it as the true story.
 
Eigil said:
I'm basing my opinion on what Lee said this guy said. I would believe it as the true story.
Lee also said this could not speak about it. Lee story did have ALL the facts.

Maybe the details not in included in Lee's story went like this. (purely hypothetical)

The guy takes a few practice runs, finds a sweet inside line right after a jump. He hits this line in his first run, and it's smooth as butter and fast. Between the first and second run, the race organizers decide this line a lot of the racers are hitting is a 'cheater' line, maybe not marked well enough. So they move the course marker. He takes his last run, hits the jump aiming for his line, clips the course marker that wasn't there before.

He may have just cliped the same old course marker that was there all day, my point is......nothing posted here has given enough information to form an educated opinion.
 

Brad23

Monkey
Jan 9, 2004
236
0
West Oakland
My letter to Lee;

Please tell me how in a course made by man, a marker is different from a rock or tree. I believe it to be part of the risk…hitting things, rocks, trees, dirt and if your not careful, the course markers. This is an extreme sport with extreme consequences. Closing a Mountain is not the answer, suing is not the answer. I’m glad you wrote the article describing the human side and I think he deserves the money and more, but not from the Mountain, just from insurance. That’s what insurance is for, unfortunately it is lawyers behind the insurance and the American way is to point your finger at someone else.

-Brad

PS a moved marker would change things a bit, but things do move, the whole course does not live in a vacuum, rocks and dirt get moved, branches fall, markers may fall, but moved to block a once ok line....
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
PsychO!1 said:
I always hear the McDonalds Hot Coffee Suit as an example of frivilous suits, but when you know thw whole story, McDonalds was negligent (sp?) and responsible.
See, in my opinion mcdonals WAS NOT responsible. The dumb broad who drove with hot coffee between her legs was stupid and thus, responsible.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
PsychO!1 said:
Then you don't know the whole story.
It doesn't matter. This is what is wrong with America. Whether Mcdonalds over heated the coffe to near boiling, I DON'T care.

The accident could have been prevented had she
a) not driven with hot coffee at all and concentrated on driving
b) used a cup holder instead of her crotch.
 

Salami

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,788
121
Waxhaw, NC
Transcend said:
It doesn't matter. This is what is wrong with America. Whether Mcdonalds over heated the coffe to near boiling, I DON'T care.

The accident could have been prevented had she
a) not driven with hot coffee at all and concentrated on driving
b) used a cup holder instead of her crotch.

A ****ING MEN!!! You are supposed to be driving your car not doing other ****!!
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Good for the jury. They are the same people who would sue if they were burned because they were retards as well. Welcome to america and it's land of frovolous lawsuits.

Get some common sense, and you (not YOU but in general) wouldn't have these problems.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Transcend said:
It doesn't matter. This is what is wrong with America. Whether Mcdonalds over heated the coffe to near boiling, I DON'T care.

The accident could have been prevented had she
a) not driven with hot coffee at all and concentrated on driving
b) used a cup holder instead of her crotch.
Try again.

1. She was NOT driving the car.
2. The car was NOT moving.
3. She was holding the cup in one hand, removing the top with the other when it spilled.
 

Brad23

Monkey
Jan 9, 2004
236
0
West Oakland
jury's are the puppets of the lawyers, most people don't care about facts just the way the story has been told. I'm just saying that fact the Jury desided something doesn't make any more palletable to the rest of us. Just remember OJ is free :rolleyes:
 
Brad23 said:
jury's are the puppets of the lawyers, most people don't care about facts just the way the story has been told. I'm just saying that fact the Jury desided something doesn't make any more palletable to the rest of us. Just remember OJ is free :rolleyes:
I agree 100%. But, I'm also pretty sure they had a better understanding of what happened then any of us.
 

Orvan

....................
Mar 5, 2002
1,492
2
Califor-N.I.A.
So much have been said about this whole shananigan so I'll zip it. But what irritates me about this whole thing, including Lee's article's point of view (he's a a great cool guy, no doubt about that), is that irresponsibility and inaccountability is being condoned! Lee's article is no more than a sympathy vote for a fellow NorCal.. I can relate to that.. to a miniscule point.

back to work!