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Bill Cosby speaks his mind...

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
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Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/07/01/cosby.comments.ap/index.html

As I more than a little sick of Iraq and the election, I thought this was a nice change of pace.

This is the second time in the last couple of months that Cosby as really come down hard on the black community. The first was a Washington celebration of the anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education desegregation decision. Left stunned and angry were Kweisi Mfume, Theodore Shaw and H. Patrick Swygert. The washington post had an article about it but I can't find it now.
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,329
4
in da shed, mon, in da shed
"Left stunned and angry were Kweisi Mfume, Theodore Shaw and H. Patrick Swygert."

...and in an instant, Bill managed to raise the average IQ of his audience by 6 points. You need look no further than these to see who now keeps the black man down.

I am obviously not black and have no idea what it is like to be black, but I have to think that a brilliant, successful, educated, well-spoken true civil rights proponent and philanthropist like Bill Cosby stands a better chance of helping to improve the plight and future of Black America than sellouts who tell their people that the only way to get ahead in this country is by extracting handouts and relaxed standards from guilt-ridden Whitey. You have to truly believe yourself that you are equal to any man before you can make others believe it.
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
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I love this paragraph: "I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk," Cosby said then. "And then I heard the father talk ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth."
 

BostonBullit

Monkey
Oct 27, 2001
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Medway, MA
they almost crucified him when he did this the first time a month or so ago, nobody likes to hear the truth.....especially if it's that the person responsible for their crappy life is themselves
 

Silver

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Jul 20, 2002
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BostonBullit said:
they almost crucified him when he did this the first time a month or so ago, nobody likes to hear the truth.....especially if it's that the person responsible for their crappy life is themselves
From the article I linked to:

"Just listen to the logic here: "Racism isn't holding blacks back, it's their own laziness!" If one cannot see the irony in this comment go back and read it again; read it three or four times until you get it. If anything, statements like this are their own negation; they serve to disprove their own claim, even before someone has the chance to respond to them."
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
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golgiaparatus said:
Fahk yeah, the same could be said about the poor white community.
yep, or any other group that chooses victimization as a copout.

as for that zmag link, i'd be interested in the author's data behind this wonderfully vague statement:

few commit crime, most place a high value on education, and only a small percentage get pregnant as minors
"few", "most", "small percentage". right. :rolleyes:
 

Silver

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"Let me tell you something, your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 every day, it's cursing and calling each other n------ as they're walking up and down the street," Cosby said during an appearance at the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition & Citizenship Education Fund's annual conference.

"They think they're hip," the entertainer said. "They can't read; they can't write. They're laughing and giggling, and they're going nowhere."


That sounds like a lot of high school students of every race these days.

The difference is that a white kid isn't going to hear (5000 times before he grows up) that he's poor because he's a lazy white cracker.

Anyone besides me think that maybe that can turn into a self fulfilling prophecy?
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
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Silver said:
"They think they're hip," the entertainer said. "They can't read; they can't write. They're laughing and giggling, and they're going nowhere."

That sounds like a lot of high school students of every race these days.

The difference is that a white kid isn't going to hear (5000 times before he grows up) that he's poor because he's a lazy white cracker.

Anyone besides me think that maybe that can turn into a self fulfilling prophecy?
BELOW PROFICIENT 2002


African American
4th grade 88%
12th grade 84%

Hispanic
4th grade 85%
12th grade 78%

American Indian/Alaska Native
4th grade 78%
12th grade 80%

Asian/Pacific Islander
4th grade 63%
12th grade 65%

White
4th grade 60%
12th grade 58%
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Literacy/stats.asp

i can't attest to the accuracy of this "edu-cyberpg.com", but there ya go. also, cosby's aim seems to be to break this self-fulfilling prophecy, as you put it, by waking up the black community.
 

Silver

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Toshi said:
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Literacy/stats.asp

i can't attest to the accuracy of this "edu-cyberpg.com", but there ya go. also, cosby's aim seems to be to break this self-fulfilling prophecy, as you put it, by waking up the black community.
I'd love to see those stats based on income as well as race. That shocks me though...64% of people in the 12th grade are below proficient?

I think I'm going to give my mom a call and thank her for that set of Charlie Brown encyclopedias she got me before I started school.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
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Silver said:
I'd love to see those stats based on income as well as race. That shocks me though...64% of people in the 12th grade are below proficient?

I think I'm going to give my mom a call and thank her for that set of Charlie Brown encyclopedias she got me before I started school.
http://www.firstbook.org/about/factsonilliteracy.shtml

Poverty- 43% of adults at the lowest level of literacy proficiency live in poverty; among adults with strong literacy skills, only 4% live in poverty. Adults with the lowest literacy skills earn a median income of $240 per week, compared to $681 for those with the highest skills. (2)
with reference 2 being http://www.nifl.gov/reders/!intro.htm, but darned if i can extract literacy-income statistics from there.

also from the first site:

The gap between children from low and high-income families on reading comprehension scores is over 40 points. Children from low-income families, on average, score 27 points below the mean reading level score for all students. Students from wealthy families score 15 points above the average. (10)
once again i couldn't locate the data directly from the reference.

what does this all show? i don't know. why are those families poor to begin with? since having books around the house correlates strongly (according to the first link) with childrens' reading scores, and the public library system is accessible to all... how can we blame this on anyone but the parents and their attitude? and how is THAT a governmental problem? thus i applaud cosby once again for his attempt to change that attitude.
 

Silver

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Toshi said:
what does this all show? i don't know. why are those families poor to begin with? since having books around the house correlates strongly (according to the first link) with childrens' reading scores, and the public library system is accessible to all... how can we blame this on anyone but the parents and their attitude? and how is THAT a governmental problem? thus i applaud cosby once again for his attempt to change that attitude.
Thanks, let me go through those stats and look at them.

You know what I think one of the bigger problems is (my 2 cents anyways):

Schools are funded by property taxes. Take that away, and have them funded at the state level. The public library system isn't what it used to be either. I was lucky, my parents could afford lots of books, and I didn't have to get a job when I was 13 at McDonalds to help out the family income, so I had lots of time to read. I'm not going to assume everyone had the resources or the time to read like I did.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
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Silver said:
I was lucky, my parents could afford lots of books, and I didn't have to get a job when I was 13 at McDonalds to help out the family income, so I had lots of time to read. I'm not going to assume everyone had the resources or the time to read like I did.
jeez, you have a lot of guilt for your existence. read some ayn rand and cheer up :thumb: ;) heh.

about not having enough time due to a job: http://www.csun.edu/~vceed002/health/docs/tv&health.html implies that the average american kid watches an astounding 4 hours of tv per day. qed.
 

Silver

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Toshi said:
jeez, you have a lot of guilt for your existence. read some ayn rand and cheer up :thumb: ;) heh.

about not having enough time due to a job: http://www.csun.edu/~vceed002/health/docs/tv&health.html implies that the average american kid watches an astounding 4 hours of tv per day. qed.
Not guilt. I don't feel bad because of who I am. I am not going to call poor people lazy though, because I've met lots of people who weren't well off who had a tremendous work ethic. And I still racism and classism are problems.

The not having time to read due to a job was based on some of my friends growing up, so it's totally anecdotal. Working 3 or 4 hours after school has to cut in to something though. You can't just be a robot that goes to school, works, and does your homework. A little leisure time helps sanity a bit :)
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
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Silver said:
Not guilt. I don't feel bad because of who I am. I am not going to call poor people lazy though, because I've met lots of people who weren't well off who had a tremendous work ethic. And I still racism and classism are problems.
please define what "classism" is. i'm not advocating social darwinism here, but i'm not sure that such a thing as classism (looks too much like classicism misspelled) exists. people hang out with other people of similar social standing because they tend to have similar interests, whether that be monday night football, snooty overpriced wines, watching friends reruns, the riemann conjecture, etc. :D i thought you'd like that ayn rand line hehe
 

Silver

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Toshi said:
please define what "classism" is. i'm not advocating social darwinism here, but i'm not sure that such a thing as classism (looks too much like classicism misspelled) exists. people hang out with other people of similar social standing because they tend to have similar interests, whether that be monday night football, snooty overpriced wines, watching friends reruns, the riemann conjecture, etc. :D i thought you'd like that ayn rand line hehe
It's bias based on economic or social class.

Cosby, for example, is a classist. He rails against the failings of lower class blacks because he pulled himself up, and thinks that everyone should be able to do the same.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
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Silver said:
It's bias based on economic or social class.

Cosby, for example, is a classist. He rails against the failings of lower class blacks because he pulled himself up, and thinks that everyone should be able to do the same.
but what is your evidence that everyone is not capable of what cosby did? sure, not everyone strikes it rich, but certainly literary competence is not beyond the average joe.
 

Silver

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Toshi said:
but what is your evidence that everyone is not capable of what cosby did? sure, not everyone strikes it rich, but certainly literary competence is not beyond the average joe.
That one is easy: People are still poor.

Why are they poor? If I knew the complete answer to that, I'd be rich.

And looking at the stats from above, it appears that literary competence may well be beyond the average American joe.
 
Silver said:
It's bias based on economic or social class.

Cosby, for example, is a classist. He rails against the failings of lower class blacks because he pulled himself up, and thinks that everyone should be able to do the same.
Let me see if I understand you correctly. And please, if I'm misunderstanding you, correct me...

Bill Cosby, who has been protesting civil rights since the 50's, who has pushed for education reform in schools, and who has donated who knows how much money to the inner city schools and colleges is a "classist"?

One problem (being from Atlanta GA proper) we have in urban schools is SEVERE over-crowding. At this point, there are about 41-1 kid to teacher ratio in Atlanta area schools. We dont even need to go to New York and do that ratio. Yes, Bill pulled himself up and got his piece of the American dream. Good for him. I think Bill's point was that the average black child is learning his parents 1) rascism 2) the world owes me everything for my ancestors being slaves 3) Its ok to be poor and lazy because we have welfare and it's easier to get free money from the government than go to work. His point was that (and pay attention to this) IT ALL STARTS AT HOME!!!! If the parents dont teach their kids the right thing to do, then they grow up and take the easy wrong instead of the harder right. I didnt have alot of money growing up, Hell, I'm sure that alot of people didnt get all they wanted. But my parents taught me that I need to work for what I want. And if that attitude could somehow works it's way into the inner cities, then I think the average African American child would grow up to be something other than a poor illiterate urban statistic.
 

Silver

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genpowell71 said:
Let me see if I understand you correctly. And please, if I'm misunderstanding you, correct me...

Bill Cosby, who has been protesting civil rights since the 50's, who has pushed for education reform in schools, and who has donated who knows how much money to the inner city schools and colleges is a "classist"?
Yes, he's a classist. See the following:

"You've got to stop beating up your women because you can't find a job, because you didn't want to get an education and now you're (earning) minimum wage," Cosby said. "You should have thought more of yourself when you were in high school, when you had an opportunity."

"lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids -- $500 sneakers for what? And won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.' "


He's lumping all lower economic class blacks into a group, and that's a specious argument, much like saying "All poor people are lazy." How would you feel if you were doing your best for your family and you hear Cosby go on this diatribe? (A guy who didn't take his own advice, by the way, dropping out of high school (yes, he did get his diploma by correspondance)...how many washed up comedians are there out there? Sure, he pulled himself up, but he got lucky. For every Bill Cosby, there are 100 guys who didn't make it and are janitors now.)

At best, this is counterproductive. The best way to motivate someone who is trying isn't to yell at them. And the people who aren't trying won't listen to you anyways.
 

ALEXIS_DH

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genpowell71 said:
Let me see if I understand you correctly. And please, if I'm misunderstanding you, correct me...

Bill Cosby, who has been protesting civil rights since the 50's, who has pushed for education reform in schools, and who has donated who knows how much money to the inner city schools and colleges is a "classist"?

One problem (being from Atlanta GA proper) we have in urban schools is SEVERE over-crowding. At this point, there are about 41-1 kid to teacher ratio in Atlanta area schools. We dont even need to go to New York and do that ratio. Yes, Bill pulled himself up and got his piece of the American dream. Good for him. I think Bill's point was that the average black child is learning his parents 1) rascism 2) the world owes me everything for my ancestors being slaves 3) Its ok to be poor and lazy because we have welfare and it's easier to get free money from the government than go to work. His point was that (and pay attention to this) IT ALL STARTS AT HOME!!!! If the parents dont teach their kids the right thing to do, then they grow up and take the easy wrong instead of the harder right. I didnt have alot of money growing up, Hell, I'm sure that alot of people didnt get all they wanted. But my parents taught me that I need to work for what I want. And if that attitude could somehow works it's way into the inner cities, then I think the average African American child would grow up to be something other than a poor illiterate urban statistic.

hmm, i dont think it has that much to do with funding or stuff like that. american schools, while underfunded sometimes, still get a lot more stuff than public schools in other places with better scores, like india.

i would put it down as a problem with the american educational system itself. is waaay to easy on kids, very flexible in a time when kids need some strong arm to keep them in track. alright, i sound like a fascist, but is kinda true.

i´ve been lucky enough to attend a brittish school (here in Lima, but with the brits system, brit teachers, and that brit paraphernalia), and an american school in the US for a short time. the differences are huge. the brits are a pain in the ass, but they get all the kids to swallow at least a little bit, even when i hated it a little bit at that time.

more hours, uniforms, formations, you dont get to choose classes, but every kid has to go thru the same to graduate. economics, politics, philosophy, 3 years of chemistry, 2 of physics, pre-cal, arts, music, 2 years of geography, and 5 years of world history and a lot more that every kid has to take and pass, and there is no way around with easy classes.

just think of the educational level in a poor country india. its very high compared to its economy

i think it has a lot to do with the fact they have the brits system.
so yeah, put a leash on those punks and teach them like the brits.

so much for pink floyds, we dont need no education, we dont need no thought control.
 
I guess your right. However, if we had some of the highest taxation in the world like the british do, I guess we could afford to make our kids "swallow" some stuff. As far as funding goes, I was talking about all the money that Cosby gave to schools. My point was that he can say what he wants to and has every right to say what he wants to about that subject.

P.S. While we're talking about education, there's only one t in British. I guess your "hardassed Brit" didnt teach you all you need to know huh? Before you start bashing our education system, I think you should maybe you should be sure that you have a leg to stand on
 

ALEXIS_DH

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genpowell71 said:
I guess your right. However, if we had some of the highest taxation in the world like the british do, I guess we could afford to make our kids "swallow" some stuff. As far as funding goes, I was talking about all the money that Cosby gave to schools. My point was that he can say what he wants to and has every right to say what he wants to about that subject.

P.S. While we're talking about education, there's only one t in British. I guess your "hardassed Brit" didnt teach you all you need to know huh? Before you start bashing our education system, I think you should maybe you should be sure that you have a leg to stand on

lol, yeah. my spelling is usually bad, even in spanish. well, had i not been forcefed, then i´d probably be worse anyway.

yeah i hated it when i was 15. but now i realize how worse would things would have been without it. truly, my mistakes would have been many more would i have been in a very relaxed educational system.

and well, definately i dont have a leg to stand on english grammar. (talking a 2nd language, when you are not native, nor have native parents is HARD).
anyway, i´d love to see an average grades american kid (i was an average grade student in HS) majoring in aerospace engineering, in some foreign country, in classes taught in a non-germanic language, like in russia or france to see how a relaxed ed. system wages against my own experience.

i was just talking from my limited experience. being HS-ed by the brit system, college in the US system, and some limited first hand (3months) experience with the american HS system. plus all the american educated kids i´ve met in college and the comparison with some of my old HS friends (UK universities) ,

all that definately makes me think the europeans have an edge on elementary and intermediate schooling. but i think the US starts to get an edge at the college level (with that Ph.D requirement for faculty).

and i dont think money solves that ed. problem. i dont have numbers at hand, but boy, i´d bet, even public american HS look better funded than most public schools anywhere. maybe not japan or switzerland.
 

Silver

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genpowell71 said:
I guess your right. However, if we had some of the highest taxation in the world like the british do, I guess we could afford to make our kids "swallow" some stuff. As far as funding goes, I was talking about all the money that Cosby gave to schools. My point was that he can say what he wants to and has every right to say what he wants to about that subject.

P.S. While we're talking about education, there's only one t in British. I guess your "hardassed Brit" didnt teach you all you need to know huh? Before you start bashing our education system, I think you should maybe you should be sure that you have a leg to stand on
Actually, since British is a proper noun, it should be capitalized. Also, you should have used you are or you're instead of your in the first sentence. That's ok though, you're (I'm assuming) the product of an education system where 64% of people in the 12th grade aren't currently proficient in English, if you believe the stats Toshi posted above.

Also, the UK appears to spend less per student at the primary level than the US does. Overall spending as a % of GDP is exactly the same. (See below)

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_edu_spe&int=-1&id=uk&id=us