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Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by phlegm, Nov 26, 2005.
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sweet. let me know how you like the fork, it's on my short list of possibilities.
If it's anything like my '05 66 or 888, you can bet it's gonna be good. We'll see how the low speed compression works out.
we got a 66 rc2x in at my shop, but it came overspring! (for a 140 lbs rider.) still dope fork and i love those pedals.
Steve's is the SL? not the rc2x
did we get someone else a rc2x?
the 66rc2x only has one spring rate. it uses air preload....
phlegm, whatcha puttin it on?
Parts will be going on a 2006 Norco VPS Shore. Just waiting for the bike now...
word, post it up when ya get'r all done
Yep, might be a while for the bike tho.
As for yours being oversprung for a 140 lb rider. That's no surprise. These forks come set up for a 170-200 (210 they say, but 200 is the top end IMO) lb rider.
And if it is indeed an SL. Then all you need to do is adjust your air pressures.
But you have to buy special Italian air from Marzocchi, or else you're riding on weak stuff...
My 66sl is freakin rockin!
It's easily just as good as any coil fork I;ve ridden. Smooooth. It all has to do with getting most of your air into the positive chamber and not using much air in the preload chamber.
yeah we were trying to set it up for my boss a 140lb rider, we ended up using 5 pump strokes in the positive chamber (didn't register on guage) and no air in the preload chamber...
He still thinks it's too stiff... I personally thought the rc2x and 36rc2 felt much better. to each his own right?
personal preference is personal preference
It's hard to tell how a fork really feels unless you have it tuned properly and also broken in.
Fox forx tend to feel a little bit better than Zokes out of the box.
I don't expect my 66sl to get its smoothest until several months of riding.
hmm, I always thought zocchi's felt great right out of the box.... all of mine have.. '98 z.2 bam, '00 jr. t, '00 z.1 qr20, '01 super t, '02 super t, '03 z.1fr, '04 z.1fr, '04 888r 170mm, '04 888r 200mm, '05 z.1 fr, '05 66rc, '05 888works
I typically recommend people about 5 solid rides before a zocchi is broken in, def. not months.......
Castle. Make sure you're adjusting the right air pressure, as there are 3 different pressures to adjust. And "5 pump strokes" is not a good gauge of air pressure. You have too much air in the fork.
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but if the fork is that stiff you're doing something wrong.
Please get a shock pump and do it right. Read the manual, or call Marzocchi USA since it sounds like you work at a shop.
yeah we were using the manual for ideas regarding air pressure, we spent about 1.5hrs using different air pressures in all chambers. Like I said this isn't my fork, if it were mine, I would've taken more time dumped the oil and started from scratch to try and pinpoint why when this fork is empty it doesn't just go flat. I honestly didn't care enough to take time to call zocchi otherwise I would've if it were mine, zocchi's customer service is awesome.
I'll be in the shop friday, if he isn't out on his bike I'll make a personal note to play with the fork and see if I find/get better results. (random note, I was in the shop on monday, pressing a headset, and he had it in the stand and noticed oil leaking from around both of the top caps, also another reason to mess with it.)
I'll post what I find regarding the set up, for whatever it's worth the set up we left it in, he is liking.
we used 3 differnet shock pumps to affirm nothing was wrong with the pump guage, we used a marzocchi pump first, a fox pump second and progressive 5th pump last.
Definately sounds like something is wrong if not a single pump registered a psi readout.
no if you put more in it, it would register, that's just what I used, more air pressure made the fork way too stiff, a.k.a. too much air.
...not too sure what you are referring to by the "preload chamber", as the SL doesn't have one. The only air chambers on the SL are the  Positive (right & left leg), Negative (center left leg) & PAR (bottom left leg). Perhaps you were referring to the Positive chamber on the right leg? In which case some have speculated that the Doppio air chambers may benefit from putting slightly less pressure in the positive chamber leg without a corresponding negative chamber (right side on SL)...however, we are talking only 3-5 less psi. Typically BOTH positive chambers should be setup relatively similarly regarding pressure. I would start with no pressure in the PAR (bottom left leg) as that only recommends 0-30 psi anyway & is only to prevent bottomout. Once the fork is broken in, I would gradually add pressure until the desired feel is achieved. Make sure you have plenty of pressure in the negative chamber....but I suspect the oil levels in this case.
Sean, FWIW...all my marzocchis have needed a good month of riding & at least 2 oil changes before they reached the buttery stage....my new 06 Z1 light is proving no differrent.
I didn't think I was losing my mind....... I'll be in the shop on friday and the more and more I read up; I really want to just out of curiosity figure out where we went wrong on the set up or if there is something else. I'll def. post what I find.. My boss wrote down the settings we used in the back of the manual so I'll post them as well.......
I've never felt my zocchi's needed that long.... dang! maybe I've just been lucky....
There's also the possibility of too much lube oil in the air spring.
If you go by Marzocchi's advise they say that the right leg is for preload air. You set your main air spring for the rate you want. You set the negative spring for ajusting the top out height and to neutralize the positive spring stiction. The right leg comes as a final tuning tool to adjust the preload in fine incriments without effecting spring rate too much.
There's also the cool fact that if the left leg completey loses all seals, then at least the right leg can be inflated for getting home or finishing the session.
I have mine set up pretty progressive in order to match the DHX rear set at full progression.
I put mine through a 4 hour urban arm pumping break in procedure over night. Did the trick in getting most stiction out.
I can tell this fork is going to be just as good as my Pike and any other Zoke I've ridden.
Uhm... The right leg is not for extra preload. It's an air spring.
I'm guessing what was meant was, if you're not getting all your travel, take all the air out of one side. It's similar to removing a spring from a coil/oil fork.
hey guys ..i own an 05 66rc with 7 inches of travel .. i dont seem to be using all that travel .. im not even using any of the adjusters .. should i change my springs or oil? thanks ..
I don't think they use all the stanchion do they? Isn't that how they are also 30mm taller?
Measure your travel. Not all forks use all the stanchion, like the Sherman forks.
Don't any of you kids these days read the manual?
You all have now been owned and served! Preload! Not for air springing!
....apparently you are "robot_chicken" from MTBR. Please reference MY POST in the Turner forum where it is revealed that we are apparently NOT all owned & served. Still got that manual you are referencing handy? Probably time to pull it out & read it again.
Response from MTBR...
You almost had me reversed owned!
The right leg air chamber is clearly there as an air spring for the 66rc2 LIGHT!!!
It's not to be used as an air spring for the SL, only as a preload chamber. Of course you CAN use it as an air spring, but that's the whole point of the doppio system, to have an air spring with negative pressure to lessen stichion!
I've even talked with Marzocchi tech guys and they told me exactly what I'm telling you guys.
Don't even try to tell me forks are not capable of using a spring on one side only...
...guess I'll play the X-post game:
lol. if you only knew...
Which Marzocchi tech did you speak with?
this is a little late, but sl has the rc2x dampening.
oh, burn! what now?
it does right?
It does have RC2 Damping but leave the X out lol......
not the same.....
original settings used are as follows:
Rider Weight: 140lbs/ Bike: Santa Cruz Nomad/ Fork: '06 66sl
PAR- 3-5 pump strokes (does not register on any pump)
Positive both legs- 25psi
Negative left leg- 150psi
(With the setting listed above, the rider was not able to achieve full travel or anywhere close, (used about 4-5" of the travel) I spent some time again with the manual as I did before for ideas on tuning, the fork also felt semi harsh compared to other marzocchi forks I have felt in the passed)
New Settings as of 12/2/05
PAR- 0 air (let all air out)
Pos. right leg- 10psi
Pos. left leg-25psi
(I feel that this setting got closer to using the travel for a 140lb rider, but he's still not stoaked on the fork, and is considering the swap to a fox talas 36)
for a sub 150lb rider I'm not sure this fork is optimal.
only thing left to do is check the oil heigth which I ran out of time yesterday, I did find oil around the left leg/crown area, where the top cap is and where the crown meet the stanchion and there is a recessed whole for weight savings, I told him to keep a watch on it and if more oil developes we may have something else going on there...
...honestly, there's just not a Marzocchi complicated enough for there to be too much trouble diagnosing the problem. Let ALL the air out of the fork & try compressing it completely...did you get all travel? If not, likely an oil height issue.
You are treating the centered valve on the left leg as negative right? Offset on left leg is positive. Positive is centered on right leg....may be confusing.
'Zocchi Tech typically recommends 3X the positive spring weight (psi) for the negative (@ 170mm - 4x for 150mm).
IE. with 25 psi in the positive...recommended negative is 75 psi for 170mm & 100 psi for 150mm.
I'll be in the shop again on sunday if he's not out on his bike, which he probably will be, I'll grab it again and apply this above.....
edit: he might not be out, it's cold as crap here and calling for a wintry mix.... mmmmm fun
Guys, I would really like to know how this turns out as I am in the same weight range as this guy and am seriously considering the 66SL. So please, tell us what happens!
Well if you think about it. The 66 SL's PAR end stroke progression chamber has much of the same effect the "X" in rc2x has. The X in rc2x is a high speed end of stroke compression unit. You can adjust progression on the fly without taking oil in and out. Much like the PAR air chamber.
Don't go entirely by the numbers when pumping. Start with 5 psi in the right leg and 5 psi in the left leg positive chambers. Then start adding air to the left chamber until the fork moves up and feels close to the right spring rate. Then add air to the negative chamber. If his fork isn't broken in yet, his fork wil not move much from the air pressure alone, you must push it up and down to get it set where it wants to be.
I can get mine so plush it moves all the way down to 1 inch just by pushing one hand down on the fork. I can't imagine anyone of any weight having an issue with plushness.
Remember, the lighter you are the less negative air pressure you need. If the negative is too high you will be pumping way too much into the positve to fight the negative and make it stiff.
I can 100% guarantee you that a working SL is worth holding on to. It's easily got to be better than the TALAS.
let all air out, got full travel....
12/4/06 new settings:
-Pos. Right Leg 10psi
-Pos. Left Leg 15psi
-Neg. center left leg 140psi = 155mm
-PAR 0 psi
-(100psi = 170mm/ 130psi =160mm/140psi =155m)
He's out on the bike as I type this, he's gettin proper sag and seems to be using his travel much better now, I told him if he bottoms harshly to only add a few pump strokes to the PAR valve (bottom left leg)
From what I can tell the fork is fully functional and nothing wrong with it, as Jay said there isn't but so much that can go wrong in a zocchi.
I'm still sticking by my opinion that it is not as controlled or as smooth as the Fox or Marzocchi coil forks.... to each their own. (Maybe after he's owned it for another month and has changed the oil twice I'll feel different)
In my opinion, it takes too much to set this fork up, I would have a hard time recommending it to just any joe shmoe as 9 out of 10 consumers wont take the time to figure out how to dial this fork in properly. In other words I think it's a little too in depth for most consumers. If you are one who likes to tinker then it's right up your alley.
Overall I think we've come to a pretty good setting for him, I'll see what he says when he gets back....
don't get me wrong, this fork does feel really good, just 3 years ago even coil forks didn't feel this nice and most certainly not a air fork.
for sub 150lb riders pos. pressures will have to be 10psi's or less from what I can tell..... but it does seem that you can dial this fork in for just about any weight rider, so that's a plus, just wanted to clear that up.... hope this helps in some way.... end result is pretty good, fork feels nice, rider seems happy..... know more when he gets back from his ride.
Complain about it being sticky with only a little riding on it? Come on man, have a little more patience than that!
I'm close to 200 lbs and have been beating the snot out of mine for a week. It still has a bit of stichion, which of course ANY and EVERY Zoke ever made in the last couple of years will have for a long time until broken in. I've never felt a Zoke get to full smooth in under 1 month.
Do people really put a lot of weight into wether a fork is bad or not by how it feels out of the box? That's lame. It also says something about the future long term reliability and tolerence of the parts. I give the 66 forks a much better chance at lasting longer (seals and bushings) than any Fox.
My Pike Coil was the smoothest fork I've ever been on. The 66sl is within 95% of the same smoothness with only one week of riding.
I've taken all of the air out and pulled and pushed it up and down. I guarantee 100% that the air spring doesn't add any noticable stickiness, because it's the same with or without air. It's seriously no more sticky than any Zoke coil fork in breakin.
I don't think setting up this fork is too difficult for anyone who would be looking at gettting a 170mm fork to begin with. Once one understands the way the springs effect the ride, then it's a matter of preference, not rocket science. Once set up for a certain ride height, it's set and forget. I've never seen a working Zoke lose even 1 psi due to leaking, so it should be good to go for a long time. Something a bike shop could easily set up and the rider be happy with for months on end.
Edit: If your buddy like more control have him add some low speed compression damping. It comes stock full open and will have very very little damping.
....sounds good. Finally got somewhere with it. I'm sure the pressures will have to be revisited when the seals & stanchions break in a bit. I just got the Z1 Light ETA last week & the thing is very sticky. I would be concerned had I not owned 3-4 Zocchis a year for the past number of years. It feels alot like my AM1 when it was new...but, after a month on it, was smooth as butter. I'll have mine in a few days.:love:
I don't find the fork to be "sticky". When the fork has no air in it, it slides as smooth as any zocchi should. When you add air is when the fork has a different feel. To me it feels more harsh then other marzocchi and fox coil forks I've ridden. (spokompton) You are taking offense to something becuase you own a product and someone has a different opinion. Take it for what it is, just an opinion, no offense.
my '03 z.1/'04 z.1/'05 z.1/ '05 66rc/both '04 888's and '05 888 all felt great the whole time, with what seems to be much shorter break in period then expected. I really don't find that zocchis take very long to break in.
The pike is a good fork but doesn't compare to the zocchi or fox coil offerings in terms of overall feel.
I would hope people use real ride time to determine the quality of a product, although e speculation/rumors is what keeps things interesting. My boss has put in some solid ride time already. He doesn't run a computer otherwise I'd break out the mileage. geeze. He gives me feedback (likes,dislikes) I help him tune his fork.
I don't think anyone will argue on marzocchi's seal quality? they do a good job...
I agree that it's not rocket science, I'm just speaking from shop experience. 90% of the consumers I've dealt with over the passed years would not want to take the time to learn/tune this fork properly.
I'm not confident either that many shop employees/owners have taken the time to learn how to tune this fork without owning one. Not that they can't learn...
I think once it's ridden some more the pressures will have to be revisisted.. I think the settings today will work for him, I'm interested to hear what he has to say.
if you read this and don't take in anything else, this is a good fork and so is the pike.
I can uderstand people's concerns over the action of the fork. I was skeptical when I first got it because of the stichion.
I'm in no way trying to diss other people for having an opinion, but it seems rather lame to develop an opinion about a fork that you haven't ridden yet on the trail, or on top of that that hasn't been broken in yet.
You first reported that the fork was kinda lame and just OK. With no reasoning until I questioned your reasons for your opinion. Then you fessed up that it was user error when you guys couldn't get the fork to work.
So here I am, with 1 week of REALLY hard riding on this sucker (I do arm pumps up and down on the trail to break it in) and it's broken in to the point of being as close to the feel of a coil fork as you can get. You can imagine how I wonder where and why you came to your conclusion. It's obvious you don't have enough imput to really form an opinion about this fork, so why not leave it there?
"My buddy has one with a little ride time, it feels sticky now, but may get better with time, I will post my opinion once it has broken in and I have ride time on it.."
That a lot different than trying to force an opinion on a new product without giving it time to show its true colors.
Remember, there are many more air seals in an air fork. It should take a bit of time before those break in.
Pike might not be the fork for everyone, but I have yet to see a single person NOT agree on its incredible small bump compliance.
I'm just human and not afraid to admit I'm wrong or try something new so I went and spent more time tuning the fork to find out if I could come up with better results for the rider and utilize the information I got here, then post results...... what's wrong with that? (The fork has always worked, the only user error was following the pressure recomendatiions in the manual) I never called anything lame. It still wont end up on one of my rides so to me it is a good fork (or as you put it "ok"). opinion remember. haha freeride forum rocks!
I'm not hiding any certain use of the fork, I've told what I was doing when I tried the fork, how I was trying it, that I was getting feed back from the rider and that I was tuning a fork for someone else.
How much input do I need to form an opinion? He's riding it and giving me his opinion so I can help him tune it....
if I had to make a complaint on the pike it's the lack of a preload adjustment, or air assist or something of the nature, we've now killed this kids thread...
(edit: I'm not downing this fork I hope all can read what I've written and take it for what it is, not a negative response on a fork but simply what I've found with it, I feel this is a superior fork to even coil forks of just 3 years ago, technology has come a long way.)