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BOOOOOO E-BIKES

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
3,002
705
SLO

american driving tests :sarcastic:

Any fucking way possible to steal more money from its citizens the USA will do it. I mean you cannot lose $6 Trillion every 10-15 years and not continually increase your income stream. The small college town I live in now is $150 Million in the RED. All that negative money is cash owed to retired government employees keep in mind the town is like 55,000 population when the schools are in but actually only have about 30,000 actual residents living here.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,811
5,723
UK
(Electric) Bicycle Shaped Object
It's a snobbery thing stuck up cyclists call reasonably priced bikes
 
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Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
1,060
1,027
I didn't read the licensing article, but I'm guessing it actually is for electric motos like Surrons, which currently fall between the cracks where they're not able to get an offroad type license, so can't be used legally on roads or at OHV parks, but also can't be used at any parks where bikes or ebikes are legal, since they are over the motor/twist throttle limits.
 

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
2,353
888
coloRADo
Anyone have time on these "SL" bikes. So I guess they're under 500mw. But they're also lighter in weight and newer and all that

But I kinda like the fact that my Commencal has the 6something watt battery and can pull all the newton meters in the world. I actually do have trails that step and shitty on the up. And it becomes a pleasure on the eeb. But, pour one out for the Meta TR. She died, tragically in a car accident. Now it's like, well, what do I do?

Admittingly, the big bikes were overkill for the locals. But was nice when you needed it for the high alpine stuff. But how often do I get to the high alpine? Less than I'd like. Boo.

So really the point is: 300 something mw and like 50nm of power at around 45 pounds. Or the 600 plus mw and 75nm power? At 52+ pounds?

I'm already looking towards the "smaller" bike. Just cuz. And it's cheaper. But FOMO. Not that I'd say I was missing anything. Just I wasn't taking the opportunity...so....
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,601
4,920
Australia
Couple of mates just got the Kenevo SLs. They're like 18kgs and much lower power than the full fat options. Good option for keeping up with fitter regular bike riders. I did one lap on one - descends basically the same as a regular bike. Can whip it around and change directions nice, bunny-hop them and square off turns. Didn't blow me away on the climbs though - basically just a bit easier on the legs if you climb at regular pace. Or conversely put down your regular power and get maybe 30% more laps in? I'd need a longer ride on one though - 15 minute lap wasn't enough.

One cool aspect is they can apparently remove the main battery and run it just on a range extender battery. And the range extenders are small enough capacity that you're allowed to take them on planes. Which is an expensive option but handy for travelling with the e-bike and not having to faff around shipping your battery. I believe Spesh dealers might even offer rental batteries?
 

DaveW

Space Monkey
Jul 2, 2001
11,292
2,825
The bunker at parliament
I had an SL last year, an Orbea Rise M10.
Loved it! Crazy agile, never came close to running out of charge.... and even that would not have been a problem as several times I was a few km into the ride and only then realised it wasn't turned on.
I only sold it as I was needing something with more "point it down hill" geometry so I got one of the new 2023 generation of the Orbea Wild which was longer, slacker & more travel.
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
1,060
1,027
So, I haven't owned an SL bike but have a couple friends who have (Levo SL, Kinevo SL). I own a full power Levo. The big issue with them to me personally, after having ridden with them, is that they don't really have much more range in Trail mode than I can do with a bit of effort on a normal bike (about 3,000 ft). When you run them in Eco, they're really slow although they do make things easier.

My main use case for my ebike is getting a bunch of vert in a short amount of time, due to family commitments. This afternoon, I banged out 3,000 ft in Turbo in an hour, with lots of stops to chat with a buddy, and I had lots of battery left. Or another way to put it is I can do 5,000+ ft of vert in the same amount of time I'd do about 2,000 ft pedaling.

Running the full power Levo in Trail mode is still pretty damn quick, but it also doesn't save a ton of battery. Say maybe 2/3 the speed of Turbo with about 30% more range.

Range has a pretty large correlation to rider weight. One guy I ride with has the same Levo as me, but weighs 20% more. He uses 20% more battery than me riding side by side. Another guy I know weighs like 220 lbs (he's like 6'4", rides an S5 Levo) whose tiny wife has a Levo SL (and weighs like 120 lbs). He says she can run her bike with tiny battery in full Turbo while he runs his in Eco, and they end up with the same range.

The other big issue is who you ride with and what they have. If you've got a bunch of buddies with full power, well then you need a full power. But if none of them has an ebike at all, then go for a mid power.

As a moderately strong rider, my perfect ebike would have like a 500w battery and 60nm torque motor, with a range extender, but weigh more like 42 lbs instead of 50 lbs. I'm not sure that's possible with how I'd spec it out though (Zeb, DH tires, 220mm rotors, etc.)

TLDR: the SL bikes are for either fat, out of shape people riding with people on normal bikes, or really fit riders (who don't ride with full power ebikes) and want to add more range.
 

sethimus

neu bizutch
Feb 5, 2006
5,065
2,245
not in Whistler anymore :/
Anyone have time on these "SL" bikes. So I guess they're under 500mw. But they're also lighter in weight and newer and all that

But I kinda like the fact that my Commencal has the 6something watt battery and can pull all the newton meters in the world. I actually do have trails that step and shitty on the up. And it becomes a pleasure on the eeb. But, pour one out for the Meta TR. She died, tragically in a car accident. Now it's like, well, what do I do?

Admittingly, the big bikes were overkill for the locals. But was nice when you needed it for the high alpine stuff. But how often do I get to the high alpine? Less than I'd like. Boo.

So really the point is: 300 something mw and like 50nm of power at around 45 pounds. Or the 600 plus mw and 75nm power? At 52+ pounds?

I'm already looking towards the "smaller" bike. Just cuz. And it's cheaper. But FOMO. Not that I'd say I was missing anything. Just I wasn't taking the opportunity...so....
Wh ffs. know your units
 

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
2,353
888
coloRADo
So I test road a Trek Fuel EXe. That's their "SL". So less weight. Less battery. Less NM. And it was absolutely quiet. No R/C car motor sound at all. It was like there was an invisible hand accelerating me around. This was just in the parking lot.

My take: I wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers. But does it have the power to take my 200lb ass up steep techy trails, which is why I'd buy it? It should. Cuz really, I used to do these trails with no power/motor....so there's that. Well, some of these trails you just hiked the bike in certain sections. But I'd like to try to ride these sections. Hence the eeb.

And then on the down, you wouldn't have a 53lb trail bike to muscle. Which, really, the eebs are no faster on the downs. Don't let anyone argue you out of that. They are pigs. It's still a workout. And the "hand eye coordination" is a bit different due to the weight. You gotta plan a bit more in advance.

Commencal USA in Golden, CO is having a sale. Check them out. They are a good people from my experience.
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
1,060
1,027
And then on the down, you wouldn't have a 53lb trail bike to muscle. Which, really, the eebs are no faster on the downs. Don't let anyone argue you out of that. They are pigs. It's still a workout. And the "hand eye coordination" is a bit different due to the weight. You gotta plan a bit more in advance.

I disagree pretty strongly with that (depending on trails). I weigh 165, and the added ~15 lbs of ebike does help go faster (more momentum) on certain trails. It's most noticeable for me on moderate angle stuff where you don't have to brake much, and of course anywhere where you can squeeze a few pedal strokes in here or there. The extra weight helps it not get hung up on moderate sized chunk too. Having the motor is like cheating for clearing certain jumps (like ones that favor speed but are after flat corners). That's based on having a 34 lb enduro bike and 50 lb ebike with identical travel, suspension, tires, brakes, etc. on trails I've ridden hundreds of times. That said, I'd strongly prefer to ride my enduro bike on really steep stuff for the control.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,811
5,723
UK
Having ridden tons of Emtbs over the last 6 or so years 21kg is the point for me where an FS Emtb stops being as maneuverable as a normal bike and the main reason I'm still on an older 27.5" wheel external battery Emtb. Every full motor 170mm travel Emtb is heavier. Most being around the 25kg mark which are just horrible for playful riding. Especailly manuals.
Emtb hardtails are ALL fucking horrible in this respect.

If you need a motor to make jumps either the jumps (incl run-ins) were built badly or you're just poor at jumping
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,048
1,765
Northern California
No experience with an SL, but my experience on descending on a full power e-bike vs a meat bike is that 1) you need to adjust for the increased momentum the bike is carrying when braking 2) bunny hopping without something to bump off of takes waaay more effort 3) the extra weight increases plow-ability. Outside of those factors (and obviously having a motor for pedaling) the descending experience is the same for me.
 

rideit

Bob the Builder
Aug 24, 2004
23,525
11,674
In the cleavage of the Tetons
I dunno, I can often get up to 30” or so of air at the Bike Park jumps, on the E I am currently just trying to clear the jumps as often as not. It’s harder to tuck your legs under you, and ‘let’ the bike come up and meet you. (Full size, 51 pound bike).
Could be a bit of a technique deficiency , buuuut….
 

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
2,353
888
coloRADo
I disagree pretty strongly with that (depending on trails). I weigh 165, and the added ~15 lbs of ebike does help go faster (more momentum) on certain trails. It's most noticeable for me on moderate angle stuff where you don't have to brake much, and of course anywhere where you can squeeze a few pedal strokes in here or there. The extra weight helps it not get hung up on moderate sized chunk too. Having the motor is like cheating for clearing certain jumps (like ones that favor speed but are after flat corners). That's based on having a 34 lb enduro bike and 50 lb ebike with identical travel, suspension, tires, brakes, etc. on trails I've ridden hundreds of times. That said, I'd strongly prefer to ride my enduro bike on really steep stuff for the control.
Yeah, fair play. I hear ya.

The weight helps in flat open corners for sure. It's like I can just turn the bars and not lean as much. And there's no loss of traction. It's weird. And it helps on the quick techy sections where a couple of cranks means the difference between making it, or not. The best is uphill berms. Yess please. Which is probably not a thing I should bring up in a DH forum. But it still puts a smile on my face :)

Where I ride, there's really no man made features. And it's steep. Chunky. Loose. Switchbacks. Very little berms. Even fewer "jumps". Like you gotta be on top of your game type stuff to go fast on a regular bike. Then add 15lbs to it? There is def a difference in vibe when riding the eeb vs. the enduro race machine. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. It's bikes and I love all of them.

IDK, a lot of people think that just because you're on an ebike means you're going to go faster up and down. And I just really don't buy that. Sure, for the top local pro, maybe. But for an old guy like me? I'm just trying to have fun and get out and ride and have energy left over to mow the lawn and grill some burgers for the fam :D
 

sethimus

neu bizutch
Feb 5, 2006
5,065
2,245
not in Whistler anymore :/
the heavier the bike (and the higher up the battery is) you will feel a difference on super tight tech stuff, alpine switchback style. like gary said, sweetspot is around 21 kg. my rise would feel completly different on the downhill when i left the range extender (1.6kg) attached vs. descending without it. mine was build up with full coil and dh tires (20kg ish) and felt no different on the downs than a normal bike. the titan (17kg ish) is a substitute for now, but i wanna go back to a light one asap. suits the terrain i wanna ride most of the time better. i just dont like riding up, especially not with super soft dh tires. and a light one opens all those non lift supported areas up for me. escecially the ticino area of switzerland which means for me year long riding vs having to wait till end of may when the first lifts in switzerland finnaly are opening again.
 
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Lelandjt

adorbs
Apr 4, 2008
2,538
876
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
The SLs are what ebikes were supposed to be and what people are thinking of when they argue for access and grant access. They're slightly heavier than normal bikes and add enough power for an older, disabled, or out of shape person to ride like a fit regular rider or for that regular rider to climb like a pro.

"Regular" ebikes have become so powerful and with such big batteries (so you can actually use max power a lot) that they're not really analagous to non-motorized bikes. They're dirt bikes with a bottom bracket throttle and speed limiter so they can ride where dirt bikes can't. Below 21mph they put out way more power than any person and with very little effort from the rider.

If I'm gonna ride something with enough power to make climbing fun, not just easier, I want a throttle so I can manual and hop up stuff. I don't want all that power going through a bicycle chain & cassette. If I'm riding something over 40lbs I want 203mm suspension travel.

So I expect e-mtbs to settle into 2 groups.
1. Trying to nearly pass for a normal bike, but with boost.
2. Gear box, belt drive, big power/battery, 203mm bikes. (Many of us will add a throttle after market to have a 1/2 weight Surron that is pedaled some to extend range.)
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,811
5,723
UK
The SLs are what ebikes were supposed to be and what people are thinking of when they argue for access and grant access. They're slightly heavier than normal bikes and add enough power for an older, disabled, or out of shape person to ride like a fit regular rider or for that regular rider to climb like a pro.

"Regular" ebikes have become so powerful and with such big batteries (so you can actually use max power a lot) that they're not really analagous to non-motorized bikes. They're dirt bikes with a bottom bracket throttle and speed limiter so they can ride where dirt bikes can't. Below 21mph they put out way more power than any person and with very little effort from the rider.

WOW!

sooo american.

So I guess we'll have to make allowances for you typing such a load of absolute bollocks for just two short paragraphs.

a Regular Emtb weighs almost exactly the weight of motor + battery + controller over the equivalent mtb. As does an SL.
Weights have gone up as buyers crave more range (not power) and range = battery capacity. (internal batteries are also HEAVIER)
Motor Power hasn't gone up.
And they're fuck all like a dirt bike and don't ride like one at all.
 

Lelandjt

adorbs
Apr 4, 2008
2,538
876
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
WOW!

sooo american.

So I guess we'll have to make allowances for you typing such a load of absolute bollocks for just two short paragraphs.

a Regular Emtb weighs almost exactly the weight of motor + battery + controller over the equivalent mtb. As does an SL.
Weights have gone up as buyers crave more range (not power) and range = battery capacity. (internal batteries are also HEAVIER)
Motor Power hasn't gone up.
And they're fuck all like a dirt bike and don't ride like one at all.
Max motor power has stayed the same, but earlier smaller batteries meant you couldn't use max power often. With a large battery max power is more usable, hense a functionally more powerful motor.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,811
5,723
UK
Again. Even MOAR utter bollocks! Plenty early adopters carried an extra 500wh battery (back when that was the largest capacity on most Eebs). Or stashed one in the car and switched after a couple of hours.

It's down to the rider which mode they choose to ride in. And so it fucking should be.
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,601
4,920
Australia
I wish there was a mode switch that shuts up the riders so I don't have to listen to my rich buddies telling me how easy the climb felt on their new toys. Bastards.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,811
5,723
UK
You do always have the option to just switch your own effort to eco and let them ride off out of earshot.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I wish there was a mode switch that shuts up the riders so I don't have to listen to my rich buddies telling me how easy the climb felt on their new toys. Bastards.
I was up at a fire lookout on top of a mountain I can ride to from my house a few weeks ago. One I pedaled up for about 20 years to get to trails up there.

There's a guy in a spandex bib with his shirt off absolutely gushing about how the ebike allowed him to get up there so quickly. How ebikes just completely 'change the game'. I just stared at my dirtbike and went on a soliloquy about how the modern ebike is simply the most impressive machine man has ever created. More impressive than flight and interstellar propulsion....just eating up all of it.

I swear the dude was sitting up there naked when I approached because he was pulling the straps up over his bib.

fuckin weirdos
 
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SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
2,353
888
coloRADo
I was up at a fire lookout on top of a mountain I can ride to from my house a few weeks ago. One I pedaled up for about 20 years to get to trails up there.

There's a guy in a spandex bib with his shirt off absolutely gushing about how the ebike allowed him to get up there so quickly. How ebikes just completely 'change the game'. I just stared at my dirtbike and went on a soliloquy about how the modern ebike is simply the most impressive machine man has ever created. More impressive than flight and interstellar propulsion....just eating up all of it.

I swear the dude was sitting up there naked when I approached because he was pulling the straps up over his bib.

fuckin weirdos
Californians? That could explain it. :)

There's a joke in there somewhere for batteries causing cancer, but only to people that live in the state of California.