BOS S**toy review
- Thread starter Steve M
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what i really want to read is a comparison to the double barrel shock, anybody out there who ridden both shocks?
very good review
take it easyIf any1 of you gearnuts wasn't sure if they want it I'm sure you've changed your mindI want it for sure. My nipples get hard just from thinking about it. Hoplefully I'll have enough cash to get it for 09.
Indeed a good review with minimal BS and overstatement. As someone said previously, it seems to me that the CCDB rather than the DHX5 would be the most logical gold standard for comparison. I'll be interested to see this at some point...
the ccdb can't be the benchmark as it is a super bling custom shock that is way too similar to the stoy. Yes you can compare the two shocks and there probably is only small differences in performance that very few riders will notice. There will however be a big difference between the boss/ccdb and a DHX 5 which is also the most commonly used rear shock so for the purpose of giving readers something to compare/contrast it with the DHX is a much better choice than a CCDB.
the CCDB has a very big range of adjustment and no custom tuning with 24 clicks of adjustment. This makes it easy mess up your setup. I also experienced that the ccdb was overdamped for lighter riders. I was at the end of the adjustment range for the rebound and near the end with LSC and HSC.
With the Bos I am now roughly in the middle of the adjustment range and it works better then the ccdb did for me.
I must say that I didnt notice the rebound adjuster being a HSR adjuster, have to try that some time.
Like Steve said the bos can be very good out of the box because of the custom tuning and setup so I didnt feel much need to make big adjustments to the setup.
From memory I am on the ST04, so that could be the lightest damped shock compared to steves ST01.
i would disagree, and for the same reason pointed out in the review. No doubt the CCDB is a great shock, but the 'industry standard' at the moment is the dhx. most people own, or have ridden, a bike with a dhx on it and can relate to any comparison with it. not nearly as many have ridden a CCDB. To some it might be the gold standard for performance, but most people who buy an stoy (and probably a CCDB for that matter) are likely to be replacing a dhx since it is so heavlily spec'd as stock equipment. So it only makes good sense that it is the shock being compared.
Lee is spot on. The comparison standard should be the shock that stands on the top of the ladder, and right now thats the DHX. Perhaps not in terms of absolute performance, but definitely in terms of number of riders for a high end shock.
I wonder though, how would the Stoy compare to a Pushed DHX?
I wonder though, how would the Stoy compare to a Pushed DHX?
so what if you want one of these 2 shocks and can't decide?
Thats a well written review! Shock looks super sick, any idea on $ for US based customers?
WTF?
Already (the second sentance) I can tell it's written by a moron. They also keep comparing it to a DHX, so why even say "avalanche"?
Anyway, it's interesting that the BOS has adjusters in the same location as the avalanche (which uses a mx-style high-low speed adjuster) as well as the same adjustments. I'd be willing to be the BOS uses something similer if not almost exactly the same.
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same could be said for any standard, shimmed damper that controls oil flowing into a pressurized reservoir. i.e. pretty much every conventional dh shock on the market today. double barrel, twin tube, boost valve . . . all are designed around the same basic principle. obviously each manufacturer goes about it a bit differently, but that's why the devil is in the details (though external placement and appearance of the adjusters means doesn't mean diddly).
I vaguely agree.
S have you actually ridden a tuned for your weight and bike Avvalanche?
Or ridden a Double Barrel?
Don't know if it's fair to slag them off then, cheap shot, but one of the only real major flaws in the otherwise indepth good review.
Just because Avvalanche don't spend the big bucks sponsoring riders to get the statistics up there, doesn't mean they're not as good like you make out. Best to speak from experience than hearsay, as you know.
On another note, It's all good and well to have a custom tuned shock with limited adjustments, IF the shock is tunned perfectly(or within adjustment range), but who want's to be held hostage to someone elses tune far far away? Makes the bike or shock very hard to sell or use on another bike/rider, without having to send it back for a revalve.
I do trust in Ss review though, and would definatly like to try one.
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more proof that you just can't please everyone. do you want a mass-market damper that works very well for a huge proportion of riders, that you can bolt on to any frame and sell used when you want to upgrade, or do you want to get a shock as close to custom as you can and work with a manufacturer to make it suit your particular bike, riding style, and suspension preference (knowing that this may mean sending it back for service). pick one, you can't have both.
being held hostage to someone else's tune far, far away? i don't get it, neither RS, Manitou, Cane Creek, nor Fox offers custom tuning so how are you actually being held hostage by someone else's tune any more than you were before? And while you do have the option of sending your stuff to Push, you end up in the same predicament you are complaining about (and in the case with Fox it also means you give up your warranty and the ability to get any sort of race support at larger events).
as was alluded to in the review, the stoy was designed with the intention of providing the highest level of performance to the most capable riders, not as an expensive upgrade for your average weekend warrior, thus filling a niche that no other manufacturer has addressed. i'm willing to bet if you know what you want, can explain it concisely to a technician, and have the skills to exploit it, then the stoy will be an excellent shock. if none of the above apply it will be a really expensive upgrade that might leave you wondering what all the fuss is about.
no i haven't ridden one, but given BOS's unequaled success in dh racing and the fact that they were at least 5 years ahead of any other mtb suspension manufacturer at the time leads me to believe they know what they are doing. By all accounts that Vouilloz character knows a thing or two about suspension as well.
but i won't be buying one. the other socks on the market work incredibly well if you know how to tune them. i can't see myself gaining any tangible advantage by spending a huge chunk of money on a slightly more refined shock given all the other variables involved in dh racing other than suspension.
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I agree that the DHX is the standard and so it makes sense to compare to the DHX. However, given the cost of the Stoy, I was thinking that the CCDB is its main competitor, and I'd like to hear how they differ.
for one, as i recall Cane Creek doesn't offer any sort of custom tuning (it still doesn't work on the Sunday). honestly, given the price tag i'd expect more support.
i tend to look at it this way: one is s highly refined shock designed for the masses, while the other is a highly refined shock designed for an individual. neither is going to blow a properly tuned shock by another manufacturer out of the water (though the hole in your wallet might make you think so).
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General Lee.
That all sounds great, but I doubt they got Vouilloz shock right the very first time and left it.
There's no reason the knobs couldn't have more range.
I have no fact or experience, so I shouldn't have said anything.
I'm in Australia, it'd take a fair while no doubt, to send a shock back for a revalve, no matter how good a shock is, it's no good if it's not here.
It was just a small point I made, I don't want to have to defend it, I'm happy with the retort you gave, it made me a bit more comfortable.
That all sounds great, but I doubt they got Vouilloz shock right the very first time and left it.
There's no reason the knobs couldn't have more range.
I have no fact or experience, so I shouldn't have said anything.
I'm in Australia, it'd take a fair while no doubt, to send a shock back for a revalve, no matter how good a shock is, it's no good if it's not here.
It was just a small point I made, I don't want to have to defend it, I'm happy with the retort you gave, it made me a bit more comfortable.
Is it true MS-Racing is gonna use BOS next year ?
What a dick. Lol @ "written by a moron", especially since your comments highlight your own lack of comprehension.
The Avalanche and CCDB are mentioned as alternative manufacturers of high-end non-OEM shocks. Any review needs to at least mention alternatives in a similar price bracket/performance band.
The on-going comparison to the DHX is due - as is mentioned several times - to the fact 'most' riders will have had some experience with a DHX. Comparing the BOS to a CCDB or Avy would leave the vast majority of readers with no point of reference. In reality, head to head comparisons of two high-end shocks are only favoured when the reader is expecting the reviewer to give a ranking to make the decision for them. At this end of the spectrum, consumers are more interested in knowing the ins-and-outs of the product rather than one particular stranger's "7.35 points out of 10" scoring system.
I've ridden the Avalanche, CCDB and BOS shocks a multiple of times on different frames and I think the review matches my opinions of the shocks.
I'll be keeping my Vivid personally as it suits me well enough for the price range. Taking a swipe at a reviewer for providing an educated and objective comparison and evaluation? I reckon I know who the moron is...
Pretty sure I have.
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I'm not here to sugar-coat the world for you, if you don't like it, don't read it.
The CCDB and Avalanche were included in this statement;
And yeah, after having ridden the avalanche for a serious amount of time, I think it's flat out wrong and shows extreme bias.
Fair call. Every Avy I've ridden hasn't been anything that exceptional above a properly set up Roco, DHX or Vivid. Certainly nothing that warrants that kind of price.
The CCDBs were certainly a compentent shock but when riding them nothing reached out and slapped me quite like the BOS shocks did. I didn't particularly like the BOS forks myself, but the shock is quiet apart from other shocks I've ridden.
I retract my "moron" statement then and go with "extreme bias". I do feel the avalanche has high-speed damping worlds above the DHX, and the low-speed actually eliminates wallow/firms up the shock without making it spike like crazy. It's due to the much bigger piston, fluid flow, moto-style high/low adjusters, and the fact that it's tuned for your weight, if you didn't order the avalanche (which means it's tuned for your weight, bike, riding style, etc), then it's not going to work right anway, but it sounds like you know that.
Avys do have the potential to be set up much better than standard mtb shocks, and are built much MUCH nicer....but getting the sonofafuk Craig to set things up the way YOU want and not the way HE thinks it should be setup (which as far as I can tell is just for a wide open 5th gear AMA MX track), is just about damned near impossible. If you are into shim shuffling yourself, then it's a great chassis to go with.
trent,
I would like to know the numerous amount of frames you ve tested the shock on? As for the forks you know that these are pre series right ?
See you at illimbah mate.
nicho
The BOS shock on a V10 and I rode your Nicolai around a carpark (totally comprehensive test). The CCDB I've ridden on a M6 and V10 and the Avys on Turner DHRs, V10s, Sundays and a 223. There's a few getting around nowadays. Really none of the shocks were ridden for long enough, but it's easy enough to discern the difference even though a weekend of runs would be best.
When are you gonna lend me one for my DHR so I can refute Steve's article and give it a Thumbs Down for not having an English speaking importer?
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That "moron" would be me. I pointed out that CC and Avalanche both made high-end products, yet that none of these stood head and shoulders above the rest. I think I made it pretty damn clear in the review that the BOS is again making a number of small improvements rather than any kind of night-and-day difference, so you can take your "extreme bias" fantasies off into the e-night and play with yourself for a little while. I'm not bagging the Avalanche stuff, if you think it's great then fantastic. Take offence to me saying your shock isn't the best thing out there aaaaaaaall you want, I really don't mind. The one I test-rode I thought felt nice but nothing particularly special. Sure, wasn't valved for me (though someone a similar weight) and it wasn't my bike, but whatever. I stand by my comment that it wasn't "head and shoulders" above anything else available, if you disagree then that's your opinion and it simply differs from mine. Maybe 6 or 7 years ago it was comparatively better, but welcome to 2008.
It's compared to a DHX repeatedly because everyone knows what a DHX feels like. How hard is that to work out?
Finally, the basic twin-tube shock has been around forever and a day. There's a reason the adjusters are in the same spot (and probably work in the same manner), it's because that's the easiest spot to put a damping assembly in such a way that it can be adjusted opposite to the compression flow. It's not something that was invented by BOS or Avalanche or Cane Creek, it's been around for decades.
For those who are interested, I actually have a CCDB right now, but it's my personal shock that came with the Banshee. I'll post up my thoughts at some stage, but it's not getting a full public/official review like the BOS did for a number of reasons (namely that Cane Creek don't distribute in Australia, and since I paid for it, it's fair to say I may have ownership bias that I didn't have with the BOS). I hadn't ridden either the CCDB or the BOS when I ordered the CCDB (that was literally back in January) so don't anyone go thinking that there was any particular reason (other than cost, since the CC was OEM) in my choice.
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Yes, but it's a high/low adjuster in the same position. As I said, I'd be interested to see if it's almost the exact same thing as in an avalanche. I'd say there's a good chance. Avalanche says that they use a design that is a pretty "standard" design in the Mx world, that's why I'd bet it's about the same.
As for the "number of improvements", all you have to do is go look at the avalanche website on the shock specs to see how many ways they improve upon something like a DHX. I'm pretty sure a lot of people have no idea the caliber of the avalanche shock, and how much better it is, from the shaft materials, to the piston diameter, to the seals, and so on. I guess if you haven't really tried everything the "next best thing" seems like the absolute best, but I'd say most of the people that ride avalanche shocks would disagree, not to mention that it's flat out inaccurate to say that the avalanche doesn't have a plethora of improvements over the DHX. That's the whole point of the avalanche, and yeah, it still stands head and shoulders over the DHX. The DHX will wallow a lot if you try to set it up "as plush" as the avalanche, and you'll never get as good high-speed performance either due to the limitation of the DHX to flow enough oil on high speed hits. It's not that the DHX is crap, it was a world of improvement over shocks like the 5th, but it could have always been better. I gotta say, it seems a lot more like you're just hyping up the next-best-thing, rather than really doing a lot of research.
Of course along the same lines, if I ride a BOS that isn't tuned for me, I can call it "same as the DHX"?
In any case, it's very dogmatic and somewhat ignorant to say that the Avalanche and CCDB don't "stand head and shoulders" above the DHX. I think there's a huge percentage of riders that disagree (those that have tried both and choose the ccdb or avy). BOS sounds like the new-commer to the "high-end" shock market, which is Avy and CCDB.
I've had 4 DHXs now on 4 different bikes. The Avy is in no way on the same planet.
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Nope, only a run on someone else's bike (who was maybe 5kg lighter than me). Thought it felt ok, but like I said, wasn't a huge leap ahead of anything else, so again I stand by what I said. If you disagree then fair enough, but that is my opinion.
As for bagging custom tuned shocks - the Avalanches are even MORE specifically tuned than the BOS stuff, and for us Aussies there is no Avalanche distributor (unless you're doing them?) or service centre, whereas Rouler offer servicing of the BOS equipment, so I fail to see how the BOS is in any way at a disadvantage there. In fact, the BOS shock tunes are only chosen from a selection of four possibilities, and it's not like the adjusters do NOTHING, they simply remove the useless/non-ideal extremities of the ranges that most adjusters have, in order that you're simply fine-tuning an already well set-up shock. Most riders aren't suspension nerds, and just set their stuff up how they think feels "good" without extensive experimentation or any kind of methodical approach. Fair enough, they're just trying to have fun, not do a PhD in suspension setup. As I said, IF you know how to set your suspension up well, you can get most shocks pretty close to that level of performance, but in the more likely event that you're not really sure what you're doing, the BOS can greatly reduce that problem for you. I personally am inclined to (perhaps somewhat arrogantly) think that this is the reason a lot of people jumped on them and went "OMFG THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE" - it's not unbelievable, it's just very well set up from the beginning.
This guy understands exactly what I'm saying!more proof that you just can't please everyone. do you want a mass-market damper that works very well for a huge proportion of riders, that you can bolt on to any frame and sell used when you want to upgrade, or do you want to get a shock as close to custom as you can and work with a manufacturer to make it suit your particular bike, riding style, and suspension preference (knowing that this may mean sending it back for service). pick one, you can't have both.
being held hostage to someone else's tune far, far away? i don't get it, neither RS, Manitou, Cane Creek, nor Fox offers custom tuning so how are you actually being held hostage by someone else's tune any more than you were before? And while you do have the option of sending your stuff to Push, you end up in the same predicament you are complaining about (and in the case with Fox it also means you give up your warranty and the ability to get any sort of race support at larger events).
as was alluded to in the review, the stoy was designed with the intention of providing the highest level of performance to the most capable riders, not as an expensive upgrade for your average weekend warrior, thus filling a niche that no other manufacturer has addressed. i'm willing to bet if you know what you want, can explain it concisely to a technician, and have the skills to exploit it, then the stoy will be an excellent shock. if none of the above apply it will be a really expensive upgrade that might leave you wondering what all the fuss is about.
no i haven't ridden one, but given BOS's unequaled success in dh racing and the fact that they were at least 5 years ahead of any other mtb suspension manufacturer at the time leads me to believe they know what they are doing. By all accounts that Vouilloz character knows a thing or two about suspension as well.
but i won't be buying one. the other socks on the market work incredibly well if you know how to tune them. i can't see myself gaining any tangible advantage by spending a huge chunk of money on a slightly more refined shock given all the other variables involved in dh racing other than suspension.
Actually, you don't need a service center. The Avalanche uses off-the-shelf speced MX parts, so any place that services MX shocks should have the seals, shims, parts, on hand to service it. That's the beauty of the way they made it. You are supposed to get it charged every once and a while (which is something that every shock should get), but they give you the specs when you order it and it's relatively easy to get serviced. Whether or not you can buy one in Aus I don't know, but if it's possible, you don't have to worry about servicing. One more thing that avy has on the competition; Bladder-style reservior, the floating-piston type shocks (which is every other type of bike-shock for the most part) use floating pistons and nitrogen charges, which means there's some seal-stiction with the floating piston. The Avalanche Woodie and DHS use a bladder that has the nitrogen charge behind it, to get the most sensitivity out of the shock.
Happy trails.
JM, you talka lot of **** for a guy that hasn't produced anything of use to anyone. Socket wrote a very, very good, and very unbiased review, and all you do is piss on it. Then you blubber on about how good the avalanche is, making it seem likes its miles above anything else. Tell you what. Why don't you go and write a review on that if you're a pro? lets see how unbiased you are, after going on and on about the avy so clearly enamored. And you can go and tell rockshox how to make a fork too, since you bitch about those enough.
I've ridden an avy, and while it is spectacular, its NOT miles above what a DHX does, and its definitely not for everybody. Most of the elite racers around here won't touch them, simply because they do tend to make your bike feel softer and less "racy" then a stock DHX. Granted its due to the lack of a pedal platform, and its really just showing you the limits of your frame design, but its still a fact.
I'd say Farkin did a pretty damn good job on that review, even if your feelings got hurt because they said Avy wasn't the second coming.
I've ridden an avy, and while it is spectacular, its NOT miles above what a DHX does, and its definitely not for everybody. Most of the elite racers around here won't touch them, simply because they do tend to make your bike feel softer and less "racy" then a stock DHX. Granted its due to the lack of a pedal platform, and its really just showing you the limits of your frame design, but its still a fact.
I'd say Farkin did a pretty damn good job on that review, even if your feelings got hurt because they said Avy wasn't the second coming.
It quite probably is the same layout - so what? Same thing Fox uses in the 40, same thing Ohlins (and pretty well every high end suspension company) use in about a million of their shocks, it's not new technology in any way whatsoever. Having concentric high/low speed adjusters in that position isn't what makes a shock work well, for someone who's ranting about the reasons for Avys being tenfold better than DHX's, you should be well aware of that.Yes, but it's a high/low adjuster in the same position. As I said, I'd be interested to see if it's almost the exact same thing as in an avalanche. I'd say there's a good chance. Avalanche says that they use a design that is a pretty "standard" design in the Mx world, that's why I'd bet it's about the same.
As for the "number of improvements", all you have to do is go look at the avalanche website on the shock specs to see how many ways they improve upon something like a DHX. I'm pretty sure a lot of people have no idea the caliber of the avalanche shock, and how much better it is, from the shaft materials, to the piston diameter, to the seals, and so on. I guess if you haven't really tried everything the "next best thing" seems like the absolute best, but I'd say most of the people that ride avalanche shocks would disagree, not to mention that it's flat out inaccurate to say that the avalanche doesn't have a plethora of improvements over the DHX. That's the whole point of the avalanche, and yeah, it still stands head and shoulders over the DHX. The DHX will wallow a lot if you try to set it up "as plush" as the avalanche, and you'll never get as good high-speed performance either due to the limitation of the DHX to flow enough oil on high speed hits. It's not that the DHX is crap, it was a world of improvement over shocks like the 5th, but it could have always been better. I gotta say, it seems a lot more like you're just hyping up the next-best-thing, rather than really doing a lot of research.
Of course along the same lines, if I ride a BOS that isn't tuned for me, I can call it "same as the DHX"?
In any case, it's very dogmatic and somewhat ignorant to say that the Avalanche and CCDB don't "stand head and shoulders" above the DHX. I think there's a huge percentage of riders that disagree (those that have tried both and choose the ccdb or avy). BOS sounds like the new-commer to the "high-end" shock market, which is Avy and CCDB.
I've had 4 DHXs now on 4 different bikes. The Avy is in no way on the same planet.
hah, of all things I can't believe we're arguing this much over one passing mention of another shock in absolutely no detail whatsoever. If you think the Avy is the be-all, end-all, that's fantastic. From what I've ridden (admittedly little), I don't, I was more impressed by the BOS. If Avalanche wants to send me one that's set up precisely for my weight/bike, I'll review it comprehensively as well.
If you think the review of the BOS itself is/was rubbish, feel free to disregard my opinion entirely, however I think I made more than enough effort to review the thing objectively and fairly. I find it hilarious that you think I am somehow hyping the thing up when I've made it pretty damn clear that it's not going to set the world off its axis compared to a well set-up shock of whatever other brand, and in actual fact:
YOU are the only one claiming any other shock is way better than a DHX!
I am not in any way affiliated with BOS or its distribution channels, nor do I have any vested interest in them, so whether the review was good or bad would have made no difference whatsoever to me.
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Ever tried to get one serviced at an MX shop and have them give you that sarcastic look like you just asked them to handwash your ass and butter your balls for you? They really don't use the same size shims as MX shocks do (at all), none of the same seals that I'm aware of, and I can't think of a single internal piece or chassis piece that a MX suspension shop would carry....other than oil.
Also, screw bladder systems. They don't hold their shape and they break. Especially if you use a type of shock oil that that contains too much alcohol. Most RSF's do, and the ones that don't are a generally a close guarded secret among custom MX shock tuners. A correctly prepped and cleaned shock will cut down the floating piston stiction to just about nothing. Stiction between the piston seal and the reservoir walls also is not what causes any perceived intial "harshness" from a piston type shock vs. a bladder type. It has to do with compressable surface area, but of course you already knew this.....right?
Unfortunately the custom tuning Avalanche does with the bladder system abruptly ends when you start asking for different levels of progressiveness because they only have one size bladder to use, and that isn't a terribly progressive system to begin with. You lose all the adjustability of air chamber size and ramp up with the bladder.
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