[Ian Collins]

On the same frame I have ridden , from Fox: DHX, Vanilla Rc, Vanilla Dh and a few whackjob protos. Also ridden 5th element, Manitou & avalanche. The avalanche was setup for someone of my weight on the exact same frame (145lbs, Orange 222 with floater at the time).

My shock experience with avalanche was based on this ride and it felt incredibly overdamped. The rider who owned the shock told me it was on it's 3rd or 4th (can't remember exactly) trip back to Avalanche to be re-shimmed. Mr. Seekins had told him at length that it "wasn't supposed to be setup" the way the rider wanted it, and sent it back with another tune.

Take from this what you will, but I have heard racers on many different bikes and of different weights give me the same feedback. I have never heard a hucker complain about it as most of them prefer a lot more damping for obvious reasons.

this could go on forever, but here are a few things....

my original point was that lee has probably never taken a solid run on one of his bikes with an avalanche shock set up for his weight and riding style lately(or ever for that matter).....

you bring up a good point....custom tuning is great if you get what you want.....if you aren't getting the tune you want, then it's not good....this probably also happened a few years ago, right? he may have refined things a bit....the bottom line is, if you called him and said put a .06" X .8" shim on the bottom, then a .07" X .7" shim next....blah blah blah....he would do it......if you called fox, rock shox, or just about anyone else, they would laugh at you......

i set my bike up for racing/faster riding and i actually prefer alot of damping.....ALOT....it helps minimize chassis movement and keeps the bike feeling really centered.....no matter what i did with a DHX i could not get enough low speed damping without the bike feeling harsh and spikey....shoot, even when it was too harsh it still didn't have enough low speed......

lately i've been playing with 2 custom tunes on an old fifth element....it's a 5 year old shock, laugh if you will, but unlike lee, i'm open minded enough to spend some time toying with different setups rather than worrying about matching argyle frames and helmets....all in all that shock gives me the low speed i want but is just a tiny bit harsh...it makes me want to try an avalanche again, to get the sensitivity and traction but try to tune one in a way that it still minimizes excessive chassis movement.....i just like experimenting and learning, unlike some people on here......

 

[Ian Collins]

Fox tried the needle bearings for awhile, the entire team I run was on them at the time, they lasted about 5 runs. Between the dirt, grime and lack of major movement on the Orange platform, it just wore down 3-4 needles continously.

Has BOS found needle bearings that last? They were noticeable and seemed to cut down on some initial stiction, but not enough to be worth the hassle.

needles would be sick if they held up well....i hate AL pins, and i hate DU bushings.......

somehow the needle bearings in turner linkages last for ages....don't know why shock manufacturers can't seem to mock up something that works.....

 

[CBJ]

Or a Push tuned DHX could be a good compromise. At least I think that is what I will try next year.

 

[Transcend]

needles would be sick if they held up well....i hate AL pins, and i hate DU bushings.......

somehow the needle bearings in turner linkages last for ages....don't know why shock manufacturers can't seem to mock up something that works.....

The frame needle bearings move much more and carry much less stress as well as being much larger overall, in most cases, than the needle bearings in a shock eyelet. I would guess that this is why they worked well in turners.

 

[William42]

A trail bike has to be set up for way slower speeds and just absorbing bumps really. I'd call that the equivalent of a "woods" tuning vs. a "desert" tuning on a moto damper, if that makes any sense at all to anyone.

I've been trying to find a way to describe that difference for awhile, nailed it thanks!

anyway, yah, I'd love to get a chance to ride an avy through some real DH stuff. My ccdb is growing on me for real DH, wasn't a real fan of the HSC when I first got it, but since it was on a new bike that was half the battle.

The review wasn't really meant to compare the BOS to the CCDB or avy. That wasn't the purpose. The only comparison between them wasn't in the function, it was the production as a "mass market shock" and even that didn't get alot of focus.

As far as the function goes, I've always been a big proponent of the DHX for chassis stability. I consider it the bench mark of downhill shocks. Theres other shocks I like slightly more that suit my needs better, but the DHX is a damn good shock for downhill and a 5-10% difference is pretty huge in my book. Great review

 

[Spokompton]

needles would be sick if they held up well....i hate AL pins, and i hate DU bushings.......

somehow the needle bearings in turner linkages last for ages....don't know why shock manufacturers can't seem to mock up something that works.....

I think the frame needle bearings last longer for several reasons:

1. You can grease them through the ports.
2. They roll a bit more through the travel.
3. The leverage forces are not as high.
4. They are larger.

What I want to see are greasable bushings. Has that been done for shocks?

 

[Ian Collins]

The frame needle bearings move much more and carry much less stress as well as being much larger overall, in most cases, than the needle bearings in a shock eyelet. I would guess that this is why they worked well in turners.

yeah, that's true...they see a higher degree of rotation, but i think they see a similar amount of stress....the rear end has more leverage on the top eyelet of a shock than it does a linkage falling in front of it, but still.....those bearings are designed to withstand pretty hefty loads...maybe it has to do with the hardwear size....who knows...hopefully someone can figure something out......i'm all for standardization

 

[General Lee]

"at most i bet"?.....aren't you a teacher?

so what you're really saying is you're guessing, right?....cute......nice to see you're educating the youth of america.....

well, you're wrong...... i've been to avalanche on a few occasions and when i was there craig had a wall full of literally hundreds of bins with countless DIFFERENT shims....FOX and rock shox don't do anything like this so there is no sense in even comparing the two.....FOX gives you a worthless boost valve with no real low speed compression adjustment(even you managed to figure that out) and rock shox has 3 tunes for thousands of setups.....

alot more time and effort goes into the avalanche tunes than you think, but then again, i expect nothing less.....you're really just guessing, and then babbling about something you know nothing about with an air of absolute conviction......not out of the ordinary

have you ever ridden an avalanche shock on your bike?....taken your DHX or VIVID off and put an avalanche on to compare?.....didn't think so....well, I have, so at least i have a leg to stand on when comparing the dampers.....

based on your vague and minimal knowledge of suspension i would spend more time trying to learn, and ride as many different setups as you can rather than preaching about what you don't like(and have hardly ever ridden).....

also, saying you would never own an avalanche shock because of the people that ride them shows serious close mindedness and immaturity on your part....its also a dead giveaway that you could never ride one and give it some sort of unbiased testing/review.....your opinion is a joke.....

edit: i'm not putting avalanche on a pedestal...there are things i do and don't like about them....i'm just pointing out that you don't have a leg to stand on, you know very little about suspension in the grand scheme of things and, you don't have any idea how avalanche tunes their shocks, nor will you find out due to your close mindedness.....

Someone get their feelings hurt?

For someone with a problem with assumptions, you certainly make plenty. You seem to know what shocks i've ridden (sorry, but an avy set up for my weight on a Sunday is among them), how often i try different settings, that i'm somehow more interested in painting frames and helmets (ouch, you really got me there), and that i have no basic understanding as to how to set up my own suspension (funny, i run it just like you: for fast riding with lots of damping to control chassis movement. and i once owned a custom 5th element that i liked quite a bit). But you're entitled to your temper tantrum so, please, don't let me stop you. Though you might want to take a moment and consider who's being immature . . . and who's babbling.

Wow, Craig had countless shims. imagine that, a suspension manufacturer with shims; what's your point? You . . . have lots . . . of . . . periods in your . . . post. . . for no . . . reason. it doesn't . . . mean you know. . . how to . . . type a grammatically . . . correct . . . sentence. By the way, when you do learn how to use an ellipses correctly take note that it is only three( . . .) periods all set off with spaces. Four ( . . . .) is used only when a thought is left incomplete or when leaving off the end of a quotation.

Also, please enlighten me as to how my profession somehow prohibits me from making an educated guess, or to speculate. the short answer is it doesn't. But to reiterate, i highly doubt a 1 man show like craig sits around designing totally unique shim configurations, or the pistons on which they are mounted, for every rider who orders an Avy shock. He may have lots of shims, like you have lots of periods, but that isn't any sort of proof that he doesn't stick to a few tried and true configurations depending on what each customer weighs, rides, etc.

 

[Ian Collins]

i highly doubt a 1 man show like craig sits around designing totally unique shim configurations, or the pistons on which they are mounted, for every rider who orders an Avy shock.

i could care less how i type on forums...if it was anything important i would be typing differently...way to get sidetracked though...

all i'm saying is that fox are comprised of exactly what you assumed avalanche is comprised of...they only use a few different tunes...once again, you're wrong in "highly doubting" that someone like craig designs unique shim configurations......it's not quantum physics to him. To someone like you it may be, but he has been doing this stuff for years, has a degree in hydraulics and figuring out different tunes for different bikes and riders is babysh:t...he could do it in his sleep...i'm sure it's hard for you to wrap your head around that concept......a good friend of mine has worked out many "unique shim configurations" in his garage for himself, me and others.....it's not that complicated......

 

[General Lee]

i could care less how i type on forums...if it was anything important i would be typing differently...way to get sidetracked though...

all i'm saying is that fox are comprised of exactly what you assumed avalanche is comprised of...they only use a few different tunes...once again, you're wrong in "highly doubting" that someone like craig designs unique shim configurations......it's not quantum physics to him. To someone like you it may be, but he has been doing this stuff for years, has a degree in hydraulics and figuring out different tunes for different bikes and riders is babysh:t...he could do it in his sleep...i'm sure it's hard for you to wrap your head around that concept......a good friend of mine has worked out many "unique shim configurations" in his garage for himself, me and others.....it's not that complicated......

I must confess i only have a masters degree is school administration and public policy (having scrapped the idea of being a mechanical engineer shortly before graduating high school), so i can't attest to anything being similar to quantum physics, nor do i have a degree is hydraulics, but i do have a bit of what one in my field might refer to as experiential learning.

Where do I start? Proabably when i was in 8th grade and i blew the seals on my Specialized Future shock (rebadged Mag 21). My mechanic (i was 14) was nice enough to dismantle it and show me how it was put together and how it all worked. And since i was never happy with how overdamped and unresponsive the fork was i promptly went home and set to work making it work a whole lot better (well, it now topped out like mad but at least it actually compressed on something smaller than the curb). From there I made a 5" travel Judy in 1995, long before RS did anything of the sort (and this included making custom extensions for the through-shaft damper and modifying the bushings); it broke within a month. That same year I modified my sh*tty Amp rear shock for faster rebound, learned how to get inside some of the first generation Fox air shocks, and rebuild a cannondale headshock. I was too young to have a real job or drive, so i spent a lot of time fiddling with my bikes. i learned how to tune the shims on my Coupe Deluxe way back in 1997 just as soon as i got the hypodermic needle needed to re-pressurize the reservoir. Dawson used to yell at me at the races when he serviced it because i was 16 and he figured i was just f'ing it up, but no one was making shocks valved for a 125lb kids at the time. that and the suspension of the gt lts i was on tended to fully extend when you hit the rear v-brakes so it needed a lot less compression damping to have any hope of absorbing bumps (he rebuilt it to stock spec and i promptly tore it apart in the parking lot at dear valley to restore my previous settings). I did the same to the pull shock on my Lobo with the leftover shims from the old couple deluxe. this time it was done in a dorm room using the door as a vice. I had a custom tuned Super Deluxe on my Giant ATX in 2001-02, again i did the work myself in the garage. In '03 i was among the riders testing the earliest versions of the propedal system on a prototype Fox vanilla for the entire season, in that case i wasn't allowed to open it myself. First thing i did with my 5th element in '04 was open it up to see what was inside, then had progressive custom tune it so it actually rebounded. that same year my Manitou dorado didn't have a stock shim stack for very long (nor did it have stock travel), and most recently i've rebuilt a few DHX's in the bromont and whiteface parking lots. Would be interested in fiddling with the vivid, as it seems straightforward enough to dismantle (despite the 74 some-odd steps), but i don't have the tools to open it and frankly i'm happy enough with how it performs. Sure, i can find fault with it but no so much that i'm going to run out and spend a bunch of $$ for a marginal (perhaps negledgeable) performance advantage.

it's not hard to wrap your head around the concept, you are right. Even for someone like me who clearly has no clue and no experience whatsoever

 

[davep]

...somehow the needle bearings in turner linkages last for ages...

That is because you live in the DRY, all kinds of bike products work great when never exposed to moisture. They are well known up here as needing a daily grease purge when riding in the wet. The rear-most one (that sees the most exposure to the rear tire, and sits in a little pocket in the swing arm) on my 05 were 110% toast after a few wet days at whistler. When I pulled the inner race, semi-cylindrical 'rust tubes' just fell out on the ground....


Once I knew this and pumped a shot of grease after wet exposure, they seemed to last and they are definately better 'on paper' for this application....they just prove very difficult to seal propperly.

 

[Jm_]

Wow, Craig had countless shims. imagine that, a suspension manufacturer with shims; what's your point?

Mainly that you were throwing down the BS just a strongly as everyone else with your "I bet there's only 2 tunes" crap.

 

[Jm_]

hahahaha I can't believe some of the s**t you talk. First, you accuse me of slagging Avalanche, which I didn't.

Not necessarily "slagging" on avalanche, but if you're going to state something about how the BOS stands "way above" the avalanche, as you did, I'd expect to have something in the article to back that up, rather than "BOS vs DHX". If you were approaching it from a perspective of "there are very few shocks above the OEM level that offer custom-options and high performance, here's one, and here's how it stacks up to the DHX" then I'd say that would be a pretty good review. If you're going to say it stands above the Avy and CCDB in terms of performance, it would be good to have something to back that up, in the way you were doing all the comparissions with the DHX.

In any case, it's absolutely rediculous when I go looking for square-edged rocks to slam the Avy into. It transitions to high speed in such a way that you think something is wrong at first, because you've never felt a shock really absorb a square-edged hit in that way before. I'm not sure if Transcend gets that feeling on his DHXs, but I've been riding them since they came out, and while they aren't bad, they aren't anywhere near what is possible. The DHX simply doesn't flow enough oil to provide that kind of transition and high speed performance. Fox doesn't make crap, I'm sure that BOS doesn't make crap, and I'm sure that they offer suspension performance that may be similar to what is possible with Avy, but you did make the comparission to avy and ccdb, and while that isn't the bulk of your article, it's in the introduction.

You think I'm trying to slag on the BOS. I'm not, it's just that usually in the introduction you discuss what you'll be talking about/comparing in the article. Some of the fan-boys in this thread have been pretty crazy, and I'll admit that I'm one of em, but it's the ones that seem all fired up that make me laugh.

 

[Udi]

I also gotta say (not related to the ccdb) if the BOS is only around 5% better than a DHX in terms of performance, that's a crapload of money for a pretty marginal performance increase. I'd say my avalanche kills the DHX in every situation

You're just blinded by your investment like every other Avalanche owner. Yes they're good shocks, yes they work reasonably well, but no... they're not anything special in today's market. To quote General Lee, welcome to 2008.

The DHX is a great shock and I would hazard a guess based on previous posts that there are guys in this thread riding them that go a lot faster than you, which makes you negative viewpoints interesting to say the least.

For the BOS to be ~5% better than what is already a great product is a fairly impressive improvement, that is what Socket's review brings to the table. On the other hand, your claim that Avy is leaps and bounds better than aforementioned great product is clearly just wool pulled over your eyes (having ridden a multiple of all shocks mentioned here thus far, I can say this in great confidence).

 

[General Lee]

Mainly that you were throwing down the BS just a strongly as everyone else with your "I bet there's only 3 tunes" crap.

Sorry, but i'm not buying into the idea that everyone gets the fully custom white glove treatment when they order a shock. Not only does it seem unlikely, but highly unnecessary since he only has so much info to work with and it's being passed on over the phone or through email. not to mention the fact that everyone's perception of 'plush,' 'fast,' 'firm' is going to be different. Should someone return the shock and ask for something specific to be changed, more lsc for instance, then he has something specific to go by. but as for the base settings, which are to some degree a shot in the dark for any tuner i'm sure he has a few baseline settings he sticks to. BOS does the same thing, probably for the same reasons.

what is more important to me is what he is able to do when the first shock comes back for additional tuning. I live on the East coast, and we have lots of Avy shocks floating around. oddly enough, i hear more gripes about them than compliments. specifically, riders not getting the tuning they asked for despite additional service. Every suspension tuner has an opinion of what's correct (look no further than Chris Porter from Mojo), the complaints i hear most often are craig's unwillingness to take his own bias out of the equation. some will love it, some won't. but isn't that to be expected with something as intangible as an individual's preference for bicycle suspension? The point the Avy crowd seems to miss, or keeps trying to refute with references to the number of shims in his workshop or the degree on his resume, is that not everyone is going to want or like an Avy shock. or a Fox, or a vivid, or an stoy . . . and i would argue that anyone claiming their custom aftermarket shock is 'leaps and bounds' above the standard DHX has either a touch for the dramatic or the inability/unwullingness to fully understand and tune the DHX in the first place (or maybe it's a combination of both). I'll be the first to tell you my vivid is an improvement over the dhx on my sunday, at least for what i want it to do, but i wouldn't complain if i had to switch back either.

i'm just not too quick to label a shock 'better' than another one. For the most part i'd say they are 'different' and it comes down to which 'different' you happen to like 'better.'

 

[dropmachine]

He did not say at any point that the STOY stands above the avalanche. THis is his statement, exactly:

Up until recently, the downhill suspension market has been well and truly dominated by four major players – Rockshox, Marzocchi, Manitou and Fox, with 5th Element sticking their head in for a couple of years before deciding MTB wasn’t worth their while. A few other boutique manufacturers have put up high-quality suspension products as well, such as Cane Creek and Avalanche, but in spite of numerous small improvements, none of these have really stood head and shoulders above the rest in terms of performance or the all-important race results.


A perfectly valid, sane and ALTOGETHER CORRECT statement.

You're the one going ape**** saying that Farkin slagged on Avalanche, when the very guy that wrote the damn review has come back and clarified over and over exactly where he stands. Your arguements are completely pointless, especially when you consider the fact that a factory done Fox would be MUCH better then anything Avalanche could do.

Why can I say that? Simply put, if the Avy was the be and and end all that you claim it to be, IT WOULD BE ON THE WORLD CUP. End of story. Riders aren't going to ride crap; they are there to win.

The Avalanche is a great shock no doubt, but its nothing revolutionary, nor is it the holy grail of suspension like you seem to be suggesting.

Its funny that you accuse the "fanboys" in this thread of being pretty crazy. Its like the Westboro Baptist church calling somebody a religious nut.

 

[Sandwich]

Udi what's your favorite shock of the bunch? This isn't a troll, I have more faith in your suspension preference than 90% of the folks posting here.

#2 General Lee, how many times did you edit your "background" post? I counted at least three.

#4 Ever notice the avy threads bring out at least as many blind haters as it does cult followers? I'm not trying to debate anything here, just damn, drop the whole "avy cult" thing...it's dead, or at least it's just as relevant as the "anti-avy-alliance".

 

[William42]

#4 Ever notice the avy threads bring out at least as many blind haters as it does cult followers? I'm not trying to debate anything here, just damn, drop the whole "avy cult" thing...it's dead, or at least it's just as relevant as the "anti-avy-alliance".

I've never ridden avy other then bouncing on a stinky that wasn't sprung or valved for me in a parking lot, but I hate it.

Also, you went from 1, to 2, to 4. wheres 3?

Last but not least, who gives a fycking fyck about avy. Shut up, this is not about avy at all, somebody wrote an incredibly informative review about a new product everybody is curious about, and the first things out of everybody's mouth is "OMG CCDB AVY LOL OMG I HAVE AN OPINION"

Socket, rad review of the shock, I wish more reviews were like this. Thank you

 

[General Lee]

#2 General Lee, how many times did you edit your "background" post? I counted at least three.

Once for every 10 boxes of shims in Craig's shop, or more times than i could count. you pick, that way the answer will be custom tuned to your own preferences.

and sifting through the avy cult's bs does not qualify as blind hate so much as a small dose of reality. sort of like earlier this year when i pointed out that Avy was advertising their ti springs as more sensitive than steel (um, bullsh*t) and somehow caught a load of flack for it. Every product has some excess hype surrounding it, Avy's no exception. though calling them 'nothing special' does not mean 'they suck' like some are so quick to assume. nothing special means just that: given the shocks available today the avalanche does not stand out as either revolutionary or extraordinary. it might have in 2002, but it's almost 2009.

 

[Jm_]

such as Cane Creek and Avalanche, but in spite of numerous small improvements, none of these have really stood head and shoulders above the rest in terms of performance

Well, that seems pretty clear to me he's saying the CCDB and Avy don't stand out in terms of performance. I think there are plenty of riders of those shocks that disagree. It was a bold statement, and usually in an intro you talk about what the body of your work is going to say, so if it's in the intro you expect to see it in the body.


He didn't just say the "race results", he said "performance" as well. I can ignore race results because he made an inclusive statement. If he doesn't know how to write then that may be another issue.

 

[Sandwich]

Once for every 10 boxes of shims in Craig's shop, or more times than i could count. you pick, that way the answer will be custom tuned to your own preferences.

oh good could I get 40wt sarcasm, 400# angry, and 3 clicks of internet, please. I just thought it was funny.

Three isn't important. Just like every post after #1 in this thread. I agree though, nice review.

 

[dropmachine]

While a lot of riders might very well disagree, whether they are right or not is entirely debatable. All comes down to the timers if you are a racer type. If you can bolt on a high end shock and dump a bunch of time, then yep, its proven itself to be a better shock, as there is a measurable outcome.

If you aren't a racer type, well then its all a moot point isn't it? Its whatever makes you happy really. If you feel its better then a stock shock, and you're a happy camper, then giddyup.

 

[Steve M]

Fox tried the needle bearings for awhile, the entire team I run was on them at the time, they lasted about 5 runs. Between the dirt, grime and lack of major movement on the Orange platform, it just wore down 3-4 needles continously.

Has BOS found needle bearings that last? They were noticeable and seemed to cut down on some initial stiction, but not enough to be worth the hassle.

I don't know how well they last. I do know they're sealed with o-rings and can be easily replaced in the same way a DU bush is (I got a couple of spares in the box the shock came in). My first ride on the shock was in considerable mud, I didn't touch it afterwards and it's had no problems since, but that was only a few weeks anyway so how well they go over time I really have no idea. Not 100% sure but I *think* there is a DU bush option if you are so inclined anyway... not that I'd go for it personally.

Edit: just asked Nicho @ Rouler, the DU bushes are supposed to be for certain bikes but not others. Replacement needle bearings are $39au (which is now about $5us) rrp for the pair with fresh hardware, which is acceptable IMO, as long as they're not wearing out on a weekly basis or anything.

2nd edit: spoke to a mate of mine who's had a Stoy for over 6 months now, he's still on the original needle bearings. Admittedly it's fairly dry down here most of the time, but that's not bad.

 

[big cal]

You really are a stubborn bunch of little men. What are you trying to achieve with all the arguing? Do you think you'll win?

 

[Jm_]

What are you trying to achieve with all the arguing? Do you think you'll win?

Entertainment.


Always.

 

[Transcend]

While a lot of riders might very well disagree, whether they are right or not is entirely debatable.

Well, not really. A dyno could end all the debate once and for all.

 

[Steve M]

Well, that seems pretty clear to me he's saying the CCDB and Avy don't stand out in terms of performance. I think there are plenty of riders of those shocks that disagree. It was a bold statement, and usually in an intro you talk about what the body of your work is going to say, so if it's in the intro you expect to see it in the body.


He didn't just say the "race results", he said "performance" as well. I can ignore race results because he made an inclusive statement. If he doesn't know how to write then that may be another issue.

You're right, what I said was that they're not "on another planet" like you did. That's because, despite your hypocritical accusations, I'm not hyping any shocks up beyond their realistic values. If you don't know how to interpret plain, no-BS english or put forward a coherent argument, that's your issue. I never said they weren't better (in fact, I pretty clearly said they WERE high quality and made numerous small improvements), but unlike you I haven't tried to pretend that there is a massive level of gain that is, or even physically CAN BE made by any other shock. The devil is in the details and the optimisation and refinement of what is decades-old technology. If someone comes out with semi-active magneto-rheological dampers, maybe there is potential to improve significantly over conventional passive hydraulic dampers, but the fact is that the industry standard is high nowadays, and the custom/boutique shocks like CCDB, Avalanche and BOS don't have as much room to improve over said standard anymore, whether you like hearing it or not. Paying double does not get you something twice as good, it gets you something with more like half the deviation from what you might consider perfect/ideal. It's not like riding with a modern 8" travel dh bike compared to a mid/late 90s 4" travel dh bike. The entire industry has made those big gains already, only the small ones are left to make. Just cos you don't want to hear that you're not getting a linear increase in performance for your linear increase in monetary outlay, doesn't mean that it's any less true.

 

[Jm_]

You're right, what I said was that they're not "on another planet" like you did. That's because, despite your hypocritical accusations, I'm not hyping any shocks up beyond their realistic values. If you don't know how to interpret plain, no-BS english or put forward a coherent argument, that's your issue. I never said they weren't better (in fact, I pretty clearly said they WERE high quality and made numerous small improvements), but unlike you I haven't tried to pretend that there is a massive level of gain that is, or even physically CAN BE made by any other shock. The devil is in the details and the optimisation and refinement of what is decades-old technology. If someone comes out with semi-active magneto-rheological dampers, maybe there is potential to improve significantly over conventional passive hydraulic dampers, but the fact is that the industry standard is high nowadays, and the custom/boutique shocks like CCDB, Avalanche and BOS don't have as much room to improve over said standard anymore, whether you like hearing it or not. Paying double does not get you something twice as good, it gets you something with more like half the deviation from what you might consider perfect/ideal. It's not like riding with a modern 8" travel dh bike compared to a mid/late 90s 4" travel dh bike. The entire industry has made those big gains already, only the small ones are left to make. Just cos you don't want to hear that you're not getting a linear increase in performance for your linear increase in monetary outlay, doesn't mean that it's any less true.

What is this revolutionary damping technology that the BOS uses?

 

[General Lee]

You're right, what I said was that they're not "on another planet" like you did. That's because, despite your hypocritical accusations, I'm not hyping any shocks up beyond their realistic values. If you don't know how to interpret plain, no-BS english or put forward a coherent argument, that's your issue. I never said they weren't better (in fact, I pretty clearly said they WERE high quality and made numerous small improvements), but unlike you I haven't tried to pretend that there is a massive level of gain that is, or even physically CAN BE made by any other shock. The devil is in the details and the optimisation and refinement of what is decades-old technology. If someone comes out with semi-active magneto-rheological dampers, maybe there is potential to improve significantly over conventional passive hydraulic dampers, but the fact is that the industry standard is high nowadays, and the custom/boutique shocks like CCDB, Avalanche and BOS don't have as much room to improve over said standard anymore, whether you like hearing it or not. Paying double does not get you something twice as good, it gets you something with more like half the deviation from what you might consider perfect/ideal. It's not like riding with a modern 8" travel dh bike compared to a mid/late 90s 4" travel dh bike. The entire industry has made those big gains already, only the small ones are left to make. Just cos you don't want to hear that you're not getting a linear increase in performance for your linear increase in monetary outlay, doesn't mean that it's any less true.

I dunno, doesn't sound like it will flow enough oil at high speed.

 

[Ian Collins]

I must confess i only have a masters degree is school administration and public policy (having scrapped the idea of being a mechanical engineer shortly before graduating high school), so i can't attest to anything being similar to quantum physics, nor do i have a degree is hydraulics, but i do have a bit of what one in my field might refer to as experiential learning.

Where do I start? Proabably when i was in 8th grade and i blew the seals on my Specialized Future shock (rebadged Mag 21). My mechanic (i was 14) was nice enough to dismantle it and show me how it was put together and how it all worked. And since i was never happy with how overdamped and unresponsive the fork was i promptly went home and set to work making it work a whole lot better (well, it now topped out like mad but at least it actually compressed on something smaller than the curb). From there I made a 5" travel Judy in 1995, long before RS did anything of the sort (and this included making custom extensions for the through-shaft damper and modifying the bushings); it broke within a month. That same year I modified my sh*tty Amp rear shock for faster rebound, learned how to get inside some of the first generation Fox air shocks, and rebuild a cannondale headshock. I was too young to have a real job or drive, so i spent a lot of time fiddling with my bikes. i learned how to tune the shims on my Coupe Deluxe way back in 1997 just as soon as i got the hypodermic needle needed to re-pressurize the reservoir. Dawson used to yell at me at the races when he serviced it because i was 16 and he figured i was just f'ing it up, but no one was making shocks valved for a 125lb kids at the time. that and the suspension of the gt lts i was on tended to fully extend when you hit the rear v-brakes so it needed a lot less compression damping to have any hope of absorbing bumps (he rebuilt it to stock spec and i promptly tore it apart in the parking lot at dear valley to restore my previous settings). I did the same to the pull shock on my Lobo with the leftover shims from the old couple deluxe. this time it was done in a dorm room using the door as a vice. I had a custom tuned Super Deluxe on my Giant ATX in 2001-02, again i did the work myself in the garage. In '03 i was among the riders testing the earliest versions of the propedal system on a prototype Fox vanilla for the entire season, in that case i wasn't allowed to open it myself. First thing i did with my 5th element in '04 was open it up to see what was inside, then had progressive custom tune it so it actually rebounded. that same year my Manitou dorado didn't have a stock shim stack for very long (nor did it have stock travel), and most recently i've rebuilt a few DHX's in the bromont and whiteface parking lots. Would be interested in fiddling with the vivid, as it seems straightforward enough to dismantle (despite the 74 some-odd steps), but i don't have the tools to open it and frankly i'm happy enough with how it performs. Sure, i can find fault with it but no so much that i'm going to run out and spend a bunch of $$ for a marginal (perhaps negledgeable) performance advantage.

it's not hard to wrap your head around the concept, you are right. Even for someone like me who clearly has no clue and no experience whatsoever

to summarize what you said.....

blah blah blah....i fiddled with archaic 13 year old judy's....blah blah blah....mag 21...blah....amp....blah....grocery list of irrelevant over a decade old elementary suspension setups that have nothing to do with today's suspension what so ever......blah blah blah, i rebuilt(not retuned, just rebuilt) a dhx in a parking lot....blah blah blah, i opened a 5th element then had THEM re tune it.......blah blah blah, i don't feel like opening my vivid cause i'm too busy talking about it......

somehow that is supposed to make you accredited in knowing a single thing about suspension, rate curves, leverage rates, piston orifice configuration, shim stack arrangement.....sure....i'll totally buy that

90% of the suspension you listed there is caveman sh:t dude......if you listed that off to anyone who really knows much about suspension, it wouldn't impress them in the least, so you might wanna keep all that to yourself......

night night....

 

[General Lee]

What is this revolutionary damping technology that the BOS uses?

oh for christsakes read the review. it's spellled out in plain old king's english that it does nothing revolutionary. it simply takes standard technology and refines it ever so slightly.. stop trying to turn it into a comparison with your beloved Avy, that was never the point of the article.

 

[Ian Collins]

Why can I say that? Simply put, if the Avy was the be and and end all that you claim it to be, IT WOULD BE ON THE WORLD CUP. End of story. Riders aren't going to ride crap; they are there to win.

yeah, well, guess what....people on the world cup circuit are also forced to ride kenda and wtb tires....those aren't the be all end all tires....plenty of really top end products don't end up at a world class competition level.....i can think of examples in plenty of industries.....moto, moto gp, surfing, snowboarding, off road racing....the list goes on......

just because something doesn't end up on the WC circuit doesn't mean it isn't a top end product, and in contrast, just because something ends up on the WC circuit doesn't mean it IS a top end product.......here's a good example------Nico Vink racing a 10"+ travel trek session with a 3.5" stroke exploding manitou revolver......

 

[Ian Collins]

oh for christsakes read the review. it's spellled out in plain old king's english that it does nothing revolutionary. it simply takes standard technology and refines it ever so slightly.. stop trying to turn it into a comparison with your beloved Avy, that was never the point of the article.

that's the irony of this whole d:ckwaving match.....this shock really is almost a carbon copy of an avalanche.....or any moto shock out on the market for that matter......the problem with the bike industry is that they are trying to reinvent the wheel.....

the fox, cane creek, vivid, manitou, etc. all have features that aren't necessary on MTB's......the moto industry has gone through 30-40 years of working out the kinks and what they have come up with as a standard platform for a rear damper is a speed sensitive damper with a shim backed piston, a nitrogen charged bladder, hi/lo comp clickers and ONE rebound clicker....the avalanche and the BOS (and the elka, but that isn't available) are the only mountain bike dampers that work this way.....everything else is convoluted.....prime example of how this industry gets hung up on stupid ideas.......

 

[General Lee]

to summarize what you said.....

blah blah blah....i fiddled with archaic 13 year old judy's....blah blah blah....mag 21...blah....amp....blah....grocery list of irrelevant over a decade old elementary suspension setups that have nothing to do with today's suspension what so ever......blah blah blah, i rebuilt(not retuned, just rebuilt) a dhx in a parking lot....blah blah blah, i opened a 5th element then had THEM re tune it.......blah blah blah, i don't feel like opening my vivid cause i'm too busy talking about it......

somehow that is supposed to make you accredited in knowing a single thing about suspension, rate curves, leverage rates, piston orifice configuration, shim stack arrangement.....sure....i'll totally buy that

90% of the suspension you listed there is caveman sh:t dude......if you listed that off to anyone who really knows much about suspension, it wouldn't impress them in the least, so you might wanna keep all that to yourself......

night night....

so when are we all to be treated to the ian collins library of suspension tuning mastery? because so far all you've been able to provide is an angry, poorly written rant with a few references to having a custom tuned 5th element (join the club, it's a big one); running a great deal of damping (again, welcome); having a friend who has whipped up some special shim stacks for you and yours in his garage; bandied around terms such as rate curves, piston orifice configuration, and shim stack arrangement (not impressed); referred to working on older shocks using the same piston/shims stack concept still used today as 'caveman sh*t dude;' several obvious, generic references and parallels to the moto industry, despite the fact that bikes are not motorcycles and dh racing is not motocross; and gladly shared with us your visit to the avalanche factory, craig's boxes of shims, and his degree in hydraulics; and pointed out in quite vague and poorely supported terms exactly how little the rest of us understand about suspension tuning and how irrelevant our contributions are without offering a single solitary ounce of your own experience, qualification, or area of expertise from which to evaluate anything you've had to say; all the while dismissing others for their lack of the same.

So please, professor collins, if you might be so kind as to bless us with your mastery of suspension tuning in addition to your already fine and impressive display of suspension vocab, personal associations, history, short temperment, and poor grammar i would be greatly appreciative.

 

[Transcend]

Moto is not MTB. It isn't even close. The way power is output and sustained is completely different, which changes things significantly.

Just because it works well on a motocross (are you talking trails, supercross, outdoors...all use different setups) does not mean it will work in MTB.

 

[dropmachine]

Well, not really. A dyno could end all the debate once and for all.

Cool. Lemme know what your time is at the bottom of St anne riding a dyno.

 

[top_dog]

5% hey? You're probably right to be honest. However I have a few observations from my BOS experience.

1) First and foremost, the BOS allowed me to drop my spring rate from 400lb to 300lb. This I think, should give a 25% increase in traction yeah? At least on the very small, pebble level.

2) The Orange 224: which in my opinion has absolutely awesome geometry, but rather ordinary suspension compared to a linkaged bike. My previous bike was a Sunday, which has almost the same travel as the 224, but a linkage, so i could run a 300lb spring. Obviously I noticed a loss of suppleness and small bump compliance when I needed to run a 400lb on the Orange. Even with this heavier spring I still bottomed it very heavily from time to time, due to the Orange's regressive rate. Now since I've had the BOS on it, I have noticeably improved traction on flat bumpy corners and as well as that it never bottoms harshly.

3) Stability: BOS stuff is extremely stable under brakes, it doesn't pay out in gee outs, the bike never pitches around, basically it feels like it stays pretty static, which obviously it doesn't but thats the impression it gives.

Bottom line is that 5% is a lot that's 9 seconds on a 3 miniute track, however on a single pivot it is worth more than that I think, maybe 8% judging by my times at Kenilworth and Illinbah.

 

[Ian Collins]

so when are we all to be treated to the ian collins library of suspension tuning mastery? because so far all you've been able to provide is and angry, poorly written rant with a few references to having a custom tuned 5th element (join the club, it's a big one); running a great deal of damping (again, welcome); having a friend who has whipped up some special shim stacks for you and yours in his garage; bandied around terms such as rate curves, piston orifice configuration, and shim stack arrangement (not impressed); referred to working on older shocks using the same piston/shims stack concept still used today as 'caveman sh*t dude;' and gladly shared with us your visit to the avalanche factory, craig's boxes of shims, and his degree in hydraulics without offering a single solitary ounce of your own experience, qualification, or area of expertise from which to evaluate anything you've had to say.

So please, if you might be so kind as to bless us with your mastery of suspension tuning in addition to your already fine and impressive display of suspension vocab, personal associations, history, short temperment, and poor grammar i would be greatly appreciative.

that's the point of all of this....i know where i stand, and i'm the first to admit that my knowledge of suspension is very little...i'm not going to try and convince people i know alot about suspension because i played with my gt lobo in my dorm room.....i'm simply pointing out that you also know very little but constantly speak with absolute conviction about that which you don't understand....what annoyed me was your assumption that craig uses, and i quote "At most i bet Avy has 2, maybe 3 standard settings" that's simply false and that's why i jumped into this stupid thread.....that's why i usually jump into threads that you're commenting in.....i like pointing out when you decide to make things up.....

now, going and talking about 1995 rock shox judy's to validate yourself in terms of suspension knowledge after i called you out still leaves you with very little cred.....

the difference between you and i is that i'm the first to admit that i know very little, but you insist that you're well informed and felt the need to write a grocery list of nonsensical garbage that was barely related(if at all) to modern suspension......

 

[Transcend]

Cool. Lemme know what your time is at the bottom of St anne riding a dyno.

Pretty sure my butt would hurt so much i'd be worried about other things (like finding a proctologist).

In all seriousness though, if people want to argue about spring rates and curves and how much a shimstack is "customimized" (and what difference it makes) or play other numbers games, a dyno would answer a lot. Not saying it would explain in the least how something rides, but it would shut up the numbers dorks.

 

[General Lee]

that's the point of all of this....i know where i stand, and i'm the first to admit that my knowledge of suspension is very little...i'm not going to try and convince people i know alot about suspension because i played with my gt lobo in my dorm room.....i'm simply pointing out that you also know very little but constantly speak with absolute conviction about that which you don't understand....what annoyed me was your assumption that craig uses, and i quote "At most i bet Avy has 2, maybe 3 standard settings" that's simply false and that's why i jumped into this stupid thread.....that's why i usually jump into threads that you're commenting in.....i like pointing out when you decide to make things up.....

now, going and talking about 1995 rock shox judy's to validate yourself in terms of suspension knowledge after i called you out still leaves you with very little cred.....

the difference between you and i is that i'm the first to admit that i know very little, but you insist that you're well informed and felt the need to write a grocery list of nonsensical garbage that was barely related(if at all) to modern suspension......

sorry, but how can you even type that with a straight face after your previous posts in this thread. if nothing else, they were written to give the impression just how much you know. or, more to the point, how much more you know.

note to self: if you claim to "be the first to admit" anything, it's best to preface your original comments with that remark before you write several paragraphs to the contrary.

and i quote:

"you can change the shims yourself if you want...plenty of people in the moto world do that.....

and it feel so different from a DHX it isn't even funny....i've owned a few DHX's, and I've owned a few avalanches and i can say in SO many ways they are worlds apart both internally and on the trail..."

"FOX gives you a worthless boost valve with no real low speed compression adjustment(even you managed to figure that out) and rock shox has 3 tunes for thousands of setups.....

based on your vague and minimal knowledge of suspension i would spend more time trying to learn"

"if you called him and said put a .06" X .8" shim on the bottom, then a .07" X .7" shim next....blah blah blah....he would do it......if you called fox, rock shox, or just about anyone else, they would laugh at you . . .

lately i've been playing with 2 custom tunes on an old fifth element"

"To someone like you it may be, but he has been doing this stuff for years, has a degree in hydraulics and figuring out different tunes for different bikes and riders is babysh:t...he could do it in his sleep...i'm sure it's hard for you to wrap your head around that concept......a good friend of mine has worked out many "unique shim configurations" in his garage for himself, me and others.....it's not that complicated"

"somehow that is supposed to make you accredited in knowing a single thing about suspension, rate curves, leverage rates, piston orifice configuration, shim stack arrangement.....sure."

and i really love this one:
"the fox, cane creek, vivid, manitou, etc. all have features that aren't necessary on MTB's......the moto industry has gone through 30-40 years of working out the kinks and what they have come up with as a standard platform for a rear damper is a speed sensitive damper with a shim backed piston, a nitrogen charged bladder, hi/lo comp clickers and ONE rebound clicker....the avalanche and the BOS (and the elka, but that isn't available) are the only mountain bike dampers that work this way.....everything else is convoluted.....prime example of how this industry gets hung up on stupid ideas......."


yeah, pretty much exactly the opposite of "being the first to admit how little i know." all you do is blow a bunch of hot air to compenstate.

by the way, i never claimed anything more than a simple hypothesis based on a few reasonable facts and observations. I just expressed my guess/bet/hunch (call it what you will) that avalanche does not give out the red carpet, white glove treatment to every individual customer who orders a shock. and for good, sound reason much like BOS. how that got you all in a tizzy is beyond me, but nor do i care. heck even avalanches own website states that all is required to set your shock up is frame, model year, terrain, and ability. and you and i both know that isn't really much to go on beyond a generic starting point. but the idea that craig takes every order independently and creates something totally unique each time a shock goes out the door the first time isn't something you can convince me of, though there are people on here who all but insist this is what happens. however, when the shock comes back for more service, well then that's a different story.


good day. and cheer up.