[sanjuro]

yeah who drills a better hole? me with a drill in my hand(handcrafted) or a CNC machine with a drill for an arm(robot). same for welding-i'd much rather have a robot do it.

also will the bike ride better if the headtube has been hand reamed/chased whatever? seriously, i could care less, even though i work in a bike shop and have all those tools available for free, i never use them on my own bikes, and have never had problems with the headsets being crooked or falling out.

and i ride giants because they are really cheap, and are decent quality.

A robot might drill a better hole or an exact weld, but do you want a $2 a hour Taiwanese worker inspecting your frame or another rider doing a QC check?

It does matter who is building your bike, and there might a design you prefer, like VPP or DW-Link, which is available only from certain builders.

There is a lot involved, but it is a good question for debate.

 

[syadasti]

A robot might drill a better hole or an exact weld, but do you want a $2 a hour Taiwanese worker inspecting your frame or another rider doing a QC check?

Oh I see then, why does the American auto builder do a crappy job - he(she) is a fellow US driver? The Lexus I get from Japan have better QC than the cars from GM and even the US made Toyotas. The Korean makers have lower defect rates than the US labels now that their auto industry is well established and has evolved more.

The big Taiwanese cycle industry is several decades old and has plenty of equally skilled specialist workers. Its the factory standards and what quality level/tolerances the label is willing to pay for, not where its made. I am not buying your theory.

Also, welders and QC people in these US factories the small labels outsource to (or even the few that don't outsource) are not necessarily bikers but just workers - they don't just make bikes for one company or just bikes period.

Where are all the top cutting edge carbon fiber frames being made these days - Asia. Even Cannondale, Titus, and other well known USA made brands have carbon fiber bikes made in Asia now - they are the experts.

 

[ChrisRobin]

If you have more specs about the frame could you please PM me as i have been trying to get every bit of info on that frame(availability,floating brake etc)

Did the appalche guys confirm the floater setup?

Thanks in advance

Ok now back on topic

They'd have to make a floating brake assembly. If they don't, BrakeTherapy will. But no confirmation.

 

[ChrisRobin]

You can't say the main thing about a high end manufacturer is the warranty. I have a giant DH team and i stripped out the top shock bolt out of my stupidity. I wasnt the original owner and giant sent me an 05 team front end with all new linkage, and bearings. I have a friend who broke his orange and it took him 2 months of haggling to get a frame.

This dude I knew had a Super8 that cracked in the swingarm. He had a choice, buy a crash replacement V10 or buy a Super8 swingarm. He wanted the swingarm since it was A LOT less money. SantaCruz wanted to see his whole super8 frame to inspect for more damage just in case. It took almost two months for them to confirm they were sending out the swingarm...they kept saying it was getting painted. Finally he got the swingarm but no front triangle! After calling and calling they finally sent the rest of his frame back to him. LOL...crazy.

 

[atrokz]

Oh I see then, why does the American auto builder do a crappy job - he(she) is a fellow US driver? The Lexus I get from Japan have better QC than the cars from GM and even the US made Toyotas. The Korean makers have lower defect rates than the US labels now that their auto industry is well established and has evolved more.


.

Actualy, a recent market research test concluded that the highest initial quality was from a Canadian GM plant. might want to update that 80's quality belief.

 

[atrokz]

Can you do it with consistency, over an entire days production?

The only benefit to CNC'd items is the ability to produce parts with 3d shaping, and multiple parts.

I answered your question in the same paragraph. I've got ESP yo!


That being said, a toolmaker (I'm an apprentice) needs to be accurate in every thing he does. Machining is one thing, but creating tooling for million dollar presses means no room for error, regardless of the time of day.

 

[syadasti]

Actualy, a recent market research test concluded that the highest initial quality was from a Canadian GM plant. might want to update that 80's quality belief.

Wrong

2004

WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.—For the first time, Korean-branded vehicles outpace both European- and Domestic-branded vehicles in initial quality, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2004 Initial Quality StudySM (IQS) released today.

Manufacturers of Korean-branded vehicles, strongly driven by Hyundai’s performance, have aggressively cut initial quality problems by 57 percent in the past six years—dropping from 272 problems per 100 vehicles (PP100) in 1998 to just 117 PP100 in 2004. This dramatic improvement is a stark contrast to the state of initial quality among the Korean-branded vehicles in 1998, when they trailed the industry-leading European-branded nameplates by an imposing 116 PP100. The Koreans now lead the Europeans by 5 PP100 and the Domestics by 6 PP100, and trail the Japanese by just 6 PP100.

"A decade ago, as Korean manufacturers struggled with a universally poor reputation for vehicle quality, no one would have predicted they could not only keep pace, but actually pass Domestics and other imports in terms of initial quality," said Joe Ivers, partner and executive director of quality/customer satisfaction at J.D. Power and Associates. "This demonstrates how vastly more competitive the market has become—which is good news for consumers, who will ultimately benefit."

The study shows that widespread initial quality improvements have taken hold in the automotive industry, with initial quality problems dropping 11 percent from 2003. The industry average stands at 119 PP100—the fewest problems since the study was redesigned in 1998. Among the 169 models included in both the 2003 and 2004 IQS, 129 (76%) have registered an improvement, while 35 (21%) have declined and five (3%) remain unchanged.

"When we started tracking initial quality more than a dozen years ago, the industry said this level of quality wasn’t possible and that it would cost too much," said Ivers. "Yet, automakers could not ignore the warranty savings due to quality, as well as the impact quality has on consumer buying decisions. Even at this historically low level of initial quality problems, the ongoing quality improvements of new vehicles will continue to have a significant impact on the industry—affecting as many as one-third of new-vehicle purchases."

2004 IQS Rankings

Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. continues to be the highest-ranking corporation in IQS, with seven models receiving awards—the most of any corporation. Toyota is followed in the corporate ranking by American Honda Motor Co. and Hyundai Motor America in a tie, and by BMW of North America, respectively. While General Motors Corporation, DaimlerChrysler and Ford Motor Company continue to demonstrate product improvement, all three continue to rank below the industry average.

Lexus set a new IQS record with its Lexus SC 430, which is the best-performing model in the IQS history, scoring just 44 PP100. Lexus remains the top-ranked nameplate, despite a 14 percent decline in initial quality, with four models receiving awards. Lexus is followed in the nameplate rankings by Cadillac, Jaguar, Honda, and Buick and Mercury in tie, respectively.

Thirty out of 37 nameplates have improved IQS scores from 2003. Hyundai, which jumps an impressive 16 rank positions from 2003, makes the most significant advancement, improving 29 percent year-over-year to rank seventh. Between 1998 and 2004, Hyundai has improved by 62 percent—more than any other nameplate and nearly twice the industry average of 32 percent.

"The fact that Hyundai is now outperforming even perennial quality leaders like Toyota—and in a relatively short amount of time—is nothing short of remarkable considering the vast quality gap it faced just a few years ago," said Ivers. "This kind of improvement simply cannot be achieved without a serious commitment to quality over the long haul. The question now is whether Hyundai can demonstrate this same level of improvement in terms of new-vehicle launch and long-term vehicle quality."

The J.D. Power and Associates 2004 Vehicle Dependability Study, which measures quality after three years of ownership, will be released in late June.

Other nameplates reporting significant initial quality improvement in 2004 include: Honda (23%), HUMMER (23%), Land Rover (22%), Jaguar (20%) and Mercedes-Benz (20%).

2004 IQS Assembly Plant Awards

Toyota’s Tahara, Japan, car plant, which produces the Lexus GS 300/GS 430 and the Lexus LS 430, receives the Platinum award for worldwide plant quality for the third consecutive year, with a score of 53 PP100. Honda and Toyota plants also receive awards in the Asia Pacific region, while Porsche, Honda and Ford plants receive honors in Europe. For the first time in the North/South America region, all three awards go to Michigan plants. General Motors’ Lansing Grand River and Hamtramck plants receive the Gold and Silver awards, respectively, and Ford’s Wixom plant receives the Bronze award.

2005

WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.,: 18 May 2005 — Toyota Motor Corporation and General Motors Corporation, the two largest automobile manufacturers in the world, capture 15 of the 18 top model segment awards, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2005 Initial Quality StudySM (IQS) released today.

In the study, Toyota Motor Corporation earns 10 of the top model segment awards, with the Lexus SC 430 honored as the highest-ranking model for the second consecutive year, at 54 problems per 100 vehicles (PP100). Other Toyota models earning segment awards include the Toyota Prius (Compact Car), Scion tC (Sporty Car) and Toyota RAV4 (Entry SUV).

General Motors earns five top model segment awards, including those for the Chevrolet Malibu/Malibu Maxx (Entry Midsize Car), Buick Century (Premium Midsize Car) and Chevrolet Suburban (Full-Size SUV).

"The 2005 IQS results contain some genuinely good news for General Motors," said Chance Parker, executive director of product and research analysis at J.D. Power and Associates. "The improvements of the quality of several models and at their North American plants are both very positive signs."

Ford Motor Company captures two model awards, with the Ford Explorer Sport Trac (Midsize Pickup) and Ford F-150 LD (Full-Size Pickup) ranking highest in their respective segments.

Assembly Plant Awards

General Motors Corporation sweeps the North/South America plant quality awards. General Motors’ Oshawa #2, Ontario, Canada, plant, which produces the Buick Century, Buick LaCrosse and Pontiac Grand Prix, earns the Gold Plant Quality Award. The Oshawa #1, Ontario, and Hamtramck, Mich., plants earn the Silver and Bronze Plant Quality awards, respectively.

For the fourth consecutive year, Toyota Motor Corporation’s Tahara, Japan, car plant receives the Platinum Plant Quality Award for worldwide plant quality with a score of 59 PP100. The Tahara plant produces the Lexus GS 300/GS 430 and the Lexus LS 430. Toyota’s Higashi-Fuji, Japan, plant and Nissan’s Tochigi, Japan, plant earn the Silver and Bronze Plant Quality awards, respectively, among Asia Pacific plants.

Among European plants, Ford Motor Company’s Jaguar plant in Halewood, Liverpool, U.K., receives the Gold Plant Quality Award. BMW’s Regensburg, Germany, plant earns the Silver Plant Quality Award. BMW’s Munich and Porsche’s Stuttgart plants tie for the Bronze Plant Quality Award.

 

[atrokz]

From the same article:

"
WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.,: 18 May 2005 — Toyota Motor Corporation and General Motors Corporation, the two largest automobile manufacturers in the world, capture 15 of the 18 top model segment awards, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2005 Initial Quality StudySM (IQS) released today.

"

GM got the initial quality award for their plant in Ontario, Canada my friend. It's in the mags, papers, and adverts now.

that being said, I dont dismiss the fact that you are still right as well .

 

[sanjuro]

Oh I see then, why does the American auto builder do a crappy job - he(she) is a fellow US driver? The Lexus I get from Japan have better QC than the cars from GM and even the US made Toyotas. The Korean makers have lower defect rates than the US labels now that their auto industry is well established and has evolved more.

The big Taiwanese cycle industry is several decades old and has plenty of equally skilled specialist workers. Its the factory standards and what quality level/tolerances the label is willing to pay for, not where its made. I am not buying your theory.

Also, welders and QC people in these US factories the small labels outsource to (or even the few that don't outsource) are not necessarily bikers but just workers - they don't just make bikes for one company or just bikes period.

Where are all the top cutting edge carbon fiber frames being made these days - Asia. Even Cannondale, Titus, and other well known USA made brands have carbon fiber bikes made in Asia now - they are the experts.

Talking apples and oranges here. First of all, Lexus is not made in Taiwan. The Japanese worker is as highly paid as Americans. And I wouldn't buy a Kia either.

Secondly, I would think the construction of cars is somewhat more, ahem, complicated than frame welding, so there is not much comparison.

Thirdly, keep in mind that Huffy's to Hecklers are made in Taiwan, and while QC is vastly different between the two bikes, there is a reason why Santa Cruz sends their older single pivots to Taiwan while building their newer VPP bikes in Oregon.

Carbon fiber is a different story, sort of. There is a shortage of carbon fiber on the market, according to Bicycle Retailer. Taiwan has a decent-sized aerospace industry, so they are a big time bike supplier for cost reasons. However, Trek is still the leader in carbon frames and I rather have a Calfee than a Giant OCR.

I am sure we could all point out the rare exception where Taiwanese quality is better than America, like Specialized vs. Intense. And there is no doubt that Taiwanese bikes can be the better value. But as a very general statement, the highest quality bikes are made in America.

 

[AR_]

Well seen as you've all wondered off talking about cars, i'l be a little more on topic...

I Like how i can ring up and speak to the person who made my frame.. He can explain how everything works.. How the importer lives 2 minutes away from my house (Not specialist to a boutique company but i like that fact at the moment all the same ) And even how i can go ride with them when i know they're in town.. I just like the more personal aspect to it all.

I don't like speaking to someone who needs to confirm something with his manager to authorise sending something to someone higher up the chain on the off chance something may get done depending if the man in charge got a blowjob the night before..

 

[SuspectDevice]

Funny i hear about Sinister here,i e mailed and called them 2 weeks ago and haven't heard from them.I want(ed) a Splinter but i allready found a different bike in the mean time.Any lurkers out there???

Krispy,
I PM'ed you FTW's contact info. Sinister is still a small, busy organisation, and messages can and do get lost in the inbox. New Sales manager will take care of that though