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Breed Specific Legislation

laura

DH_Laura
Jul 16, 2002
6,259
15
Glitter Gulch
Not sure how I feel about it yet, but in some sense it protects the breed. Outlaw pitbulls in areas where the pitbulls are inevitably owned by gang members and dog fighters, and sure they may move on to some other breed (rottie, mastiff, etc come to mind), but it will mean that the stigma associated with pits fades and other localities will lose their irrational fear of the breed.
I do think that this is a very good point though a could be accomplished several ways. A legislation based specifically on banning a breed because of a stigma only helps to reinforce the stigma. And unfortunately protecting the breed is not what is in the interest of BSL. As well, dogs that attack and kill people are not always owned by gang members and dog fighters. They are owned by all kinds of people. People who make their dogs aggressive intentionally as well as people who do it unintentionally. (By roping them in the backyard, the biggest factor in fatal dogs attacks.) Anyone can have a dog, even if they have no clue the do's and the do not's of owning an animal that has the capacity to kill someone. After working with dogs, I don't trust any dog. Each and every one has a limit that can be pushed. Responsible owners understand that and give the dog an environment in which is can thrive.

I personally have no issue with mandatory sterilization of household pet dogs. Another huge factor in dog attacks is "in tact" males, females in estrus, or females who have just given birth. You should not be able to find dogs with these characteristics living in a dense urban area (or in any random household IMO). There are plenty of unwanted dogs that need placement. Certified breeders are a different story.

But I guess the point is that there are so many factors that go in to a dog attack. BSL is the easiest answer to the problem, but it isn't a solution. It's a band-aid on a very big problem that needs a real answer.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
Nope, all dogs even the little "cute" ones. I specified that in my post when I said "owning dogs, any dogs".

And it would not be a legislation for all dogs, it would be for dog owners.

BSL says that you can not own certain dogs, you can not breed certain dogs, you can not adopt out certain dogs. It says that you have to muzzle your dog in public because of the breed. It doesn't say ONE thing about being a responsible owner and knowing how to handle your dog
Was part of a very similar discussion about driving licenses the other day. I would love to require licenses to own dogs (as well as much more challenging driving exams to have a license), but there's no way we will ever put in place the infrastructure to accomplish that. The reality is for cities with budget crunches the easiest thing for them to do is ban the "problem" breeds. When we say this "punishes the breed" it's not like we take all of those dogs and beat them daily, yelling "bad dog." They're euthanized (which we do to thousands of good dogs every day of all breeds), moved elsewhere, or not bred to begin with. If you need to own this specific breed, and can't possibly find yourself another suitable breed, move out of that city.
 

MMike

A fowl peckerwood.
Sep 5, 2001
18,207
105
just sittin' here drinkin' scotch
Only marginally related....the town I just moved to has a by-law that says a household can't have more than 3 dogs. Which makes sense to me...but my wife pointed out, what if two people who each have two dogs, move in together. Then what?
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
It's a band-aid on a very big problem that needs a real answer.
I guess I would argue with the "very big" part. Look, I love animals. My zone out channel is animal planet. I can't pass a dog in the street without wanting to say hello. If it weren't for planning to spend next year in China, I'd probably have a dog (GF pref) or two (my pref) right now (primary criteria: rescues, big enough to bike/run/camp with us) However, when I think about how I would allocate money as a city, it's to spaying/neutering programs, animal cruelty enforcement and prosecution, and shelters. All of those are sorely underfunded, and I can't imagine trying to institute a licensing system for ALL dogs and owners when only 1% of them are bad (vs. about 2/3rds of drivers in my estimation).
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
caught my neighbor 2 houses down letter her dog crap in my yard (i'm always peeking out the blinds). i found the ground in front of her curbside mailbox to be a better resting place. if it happens again i'm throwing a special mix into her yard which won't hurt the dog but give it the runs for a few days.

she's an otherwise nice lady, but wtf? just b/c she can't see me see her she's cool w/ it?
 

laura

DH_Laura
Jul 16, 2002
6,259
15
Glitter Gulch
I guess I would argue with the "very big" part. Look, I love animals. My zone out channel is animal planet. I can't pass a dog in the street without wanting to say hello. If it weren't for planning to spend next year in China, I'd probably have a dog (GF pref) or two (my pref) right now (primary criteria: rescues, big enough to bike/run/camp with us) However, when I think about how I would allocate money as a city, it's to spaying/neutering programs, animal cruelty enforcement and prosecution, and shelters. All of those are sorely underfunded, and I can't imagine trying to institute a licensing system for ALL dogs and owners when only 1% of them are bad (vs. about 2/3rds of drivers in my estimation).
In my eyes, the very big part of the problem is that people are getting attacked by dogs. Hundreds of thousands of people get bit annually, luckily only about 30-40 die.

So the large problem is that way too many people own dogs that hurt other people. Because of the pit bull stigma, they and brutal maulings they are involved in are in the spotlight, but the fact of the matter is that you are more likely to be bit by a relative or friend's dog than some vicious dog that breaks out of the backyard and comes after you.

While 1% of owners may be bad, several percent are ignorant. I don't think there is anything wrong with making people pay to own a dog. Owning an ill behaved dog in a city is a public health issue. Make people pay for trainings/ services for licensure. (That way you can discriminate on a class basis thus helping to eliminate issues in "da hood").

You have to have your dog licensed in the city for rabies do to public health issues. Why not have it licensed for behavioral stability as well. I am an educator so I am biased towards education as a means for problem solving. It would probably only work about as well as mandatory sterilization (only relatively competent owners will follow any new laws put into place anyway) or other forms of BSL. But if you are going to require that people register their dogs as vicious/aggressive and put limitations on what they can and can not do with them, why not also require that they take other, proactive steps towards making their dogs safer.

There is a better answer to the problems that BSL is trying to address. And enforcing a system that doesn't work anyway simply wasting resources that could be put towards trying to find a better system.
 

laura

DH_Laura
Jul 16, 2002
6,259
15
Glitter Gulch
caught my neighbor 2 houses down letter her dog crap in my yard (i'm always peeking out the blinds). i found the ground in front of her curbside mailbox to be a better resting place. if it happens again i'm throwing a special mix into her yard which won't hurt the dog but give it the runs for a few days.

she's an otherwise nice lady, but wtf? just b/c she can't see me see her she's cool w/ it?
She obviously hates you or she would clean it up.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
You have to have your dog licensed in the city for rabies do to public health issues. Why not have it licensed for behavioral stability as well.
Rabies is a test, while a behavioral stability study is something that would take a lot more money and time.
 

laura

DH_Laura
Jul 16, 2002
6,259
15
Glitter Gulch
Rabies is a test, while a behavioral stability study is something that would take a lot more money and time.
Public health issue none the less.

And like I said, it's a test/shot that the owner pays for, not the city. Make the owner pay for the training and behavioral assessments.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Depending on who you talk to, there is no such thing as a purebred Pit. That is why BSL refers to them as "pit bull type" dogs lumping everything from Presa Canarios to frickin' Boxers into the group when the fancy strikes. The breed isn't recognized by the UKC. The American Pit Bull Terrier is a mix of terriers and bulldogs, bred specifically for the gameness of a terrier and the athleticism of a bulldog, thus making the breed a mutt, sort of.
Two out of three of the biggest kennel clubs (forgot their names) in the US do not recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier as a race, and the same goes for the Swedish Kennel Club. I am also familiar with the theory of them having a part Terrier blood in them, but that claim as well as not recognizing them as a race are rediculous acts.

The APBT have their origins in mostly the Irish, but also Brittish, typical version of bulldog that existed there. Those were previously used for bullbating, another form of fight, that evolved them into perfect material for those who started fighting them against other dogs in the 17th century ports of the US. I've seen a painting that's estimated to be 500 years old of one of those dogs in an APBT book, and he/she looked exactly like them. They have no history to do with the terriers.

I am blessed with two APBT's of the Chinaman bloodline, a brother and sister of the same litter. They are gamebred up until their father (KIA) on one side, and up until both parents of their mothers side; almost 100% in other words. The family tree of their grandparents, with all of their respective 'matches' with wins/losses, are documented and out on the internet, just like any other gamebred APBT.

The familytrees of the gambred APBT's run 150-160 years back and are probably the most well documented dogs out there, just because of their specific history, and out of the same reason we today know all the results from the Olympic Games held in 1896. I have seen this very familytree of my wookies on the internet. So..

1) The familytrees are proof of the APBT being a race,

2) The gameness of the APBT is a product of a dogfightin breeding equivaling +1000 man years (to ad to their many hundreds of years of bullbating history), just like with the gamness of terriers being a product of their breeding, and not being a quality that's been obtained from another race or type of dog.




But yeah, I'm all for the BSL if it includes those blood thirsty genocital human dogs called Palestinians.
 
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rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
OK, we will play it the other way.

The Bronx is notorious for hoodlum types who cling to gang symbols like Pit Bulls. Not surprisingly, there are several infamous deaths from Pit Bull attacks. Just google the words "Pit Bull Bronx".

As much as I would like the Royal Society for the Protection of Animals or a dog lover from Tennessee to dictate legislation that affects my family who still lives in the Bronx, that would be akin to suggesting Chuck Schumer determine gun laws for Nashville.

On my block alone, there are several pit bulls. Are there other kinds of dogs as well? Possibly, but we only notice the pit bulls because of the attacks by the pit bulls against other dogs and their extremely hostile attitude towards humans.

If I thought legislation would improve the way the owners raised their dogs, I would be for it. The only other solution for the Bronx would be to limit the ownership of pit bulls.

BTW, I wish people could argue their points without making it personal or racist.
Those must be mixbreeds as pure gamebred APBT's have had an unwritten rule over them implemented by the breeders and the dogmen who use them for fighting. That rule is that when ever an APBT bites a human he goes to doggy heaven. The reason to that is because during the fights the dogmen of the respective dog fighting are with them in the ring, to separate them when they into "clinch". Naturally, they last thing they want is to be bitten by misstake or by purpose.


Not sure how I feel about it yet, but in some sense it protects the breed. Outlaw pitbulls in areas where the pitbulls are inevitably owned by gang members and dog fighters, and sure they may move on to some other breed (rottie, mastiff, etc come to mind), but it will mean that the stigma associated with pits fades and other localities will lose their irrational fear of the breed.

We'll never got rid of blanket euthanasia laws until we address the fact that suburban moms run screaming at the sight of a pit bull. How would YOU propose to fix the stigma which is the root of this breed discrimination?
That's what will happen with time. In the 70's German Sheperds, wolf hybrid or not, were the shiz. During the 80's it was the era of the Magnum craze, and the 90's were the years of the Rottie. With familiarization our fears lessen.


i know of 2 guys who were into that - uday & qusay - but they're a little busy for the time being
Ehud and Tsipi just told me they volonteer.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
While in general, I do very much like dogs, dogs are not people. It's ok to be racist/discriminatory against dogs.

It bugs me when people treat their dogs/cats like children (especially when they refer to themselves as "mommy" or "daddy". That's just pathetic)

I'm all for getting rid of anything that can and would willingly hurt my kids....and to a lesser extent, other peoples' kids. And if erring on the side of caution means that a few "good" dogs pay the price, well so be it. Like I said, dogs are not people.
You're a speciesist?


well i'm just not ready to accept that
She hates you, mmhm.
 

Plummit

Monkey
Mar 12, 2002
233
0
Dogs!?!?! Deer Kill far more people every year than dog attacks. Let's ban deer and mosquitoes!

(CNN) -- Forget the lions, tigers, and bears. Toss out the sharks, the alligators, even the poisonous snakes.

When it comes to humans' worst enemies in the animal world, don't think big. Or sharp teeth. Or even mean.

Hollywood and fairy tales may demonize the shark and the big bad wolf. But the animal that claims far more lives in the United States is one that many people urge their kids to walk up and touch at the petting zoo.

Yes, Bambi.

It's not because they attack, but because hapless deer wander onto roadways that they and other creatures claimed 83 human lives in car crashes in 2000, according to the U. S. Department of Transportation .

Tens of thousands of deer are killed when hit by cars. Erie Insurance, which keeps detailed records on car vs. deer claims, says the number of claims increased from 23,000 in 2000 to 26,000 in 2001, up 16 percent. That company alone spent $50 million on car/deer accidents in 2001, the vast majority of their claims in Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and West Virginia.


......................

The critter that humans should fear the most usually is dismissed as a mere annoyance, a pest at a picnic or the pool. But the disease-carrying mosquito, delivering encephalitis, the West Nile virus, malaria, and Dengue fever, makes it far and away the deadliest beast in the animal world. The World Health Organization says mosquitos cause more than 2 million deaths a year worldwide. Another insect, the tsetse fly, kills another 66,000 annually.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
3-Year-Old Fort Worth Girl Dies after Dog Attack
A 3-year-old Fort Worth girl was killed after she was mauled by a neighbor's dog, police said.

Brooklynn Grace Milburn was playing in her back yard when she somehow crawled through a hole in the fence, police said. The 17-year-old rottweiler attacked her in the head, face and neck, police said.

"It's sickeningly tragic," said the family's pastor, Mike Tucker, of the Seventh Day Adventist Church in Arlington. He said the family is devastated.

Police received the call at about 6 p.m. Thursday in the 3900 block of Buckhorn Place in far north Fort Worth.

She was rushed to Cook Children's Medical Center, but doctors could not save her.

Tucker said the girl's mother, father, grandfather and 5-year-old brother were inside the house when she was playing in her back yard.
@ 6 p.m., it's dark.
she's 3
she's (presumably) alone
dubya-tea-ephram-zimblass-jr?
The hole in the fence was so small, nobody thought the child could even fit through it, he said.
i'd say she fit more easily after the fact, no?

and even this bastard is cold-blooded:
said police spokesman Lt. Paul Henderson. "Our hearts go out to the girl's family."
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
up next: maltese

Mr Chirac, 76, who has kept a low profile since he retired last year after a 12-year stint as French leader, was "violently bitten" by his white Maltese dog, named after the Japanese wresting discipline.

The pet was a gift to the former French first couple from their grandson, Martin.

While the once prodigiously energetic Mr Chirac is said to have slowed down since his retirement, his beloved dog has been having "frenetic" fits of late, in which it jumps into the air and turns aggressive.
only a frenchman could get mauled by the business end of a mop
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
43,526
15,748
Portland, OR
I got a lot of heat when I was training my Rottie to be a service dog. She was the first of her breed to be service certified for the disabled. My ex-wife was born without arms and while she is a very able person, she could easily become a victim. So technically, our Rottie was for protection, but she didn't have an angry bone in her body, nor was she trained to protect. She was quite helpful in carrying things in her saddle bags and getting people to get the f@ck out the way when walking through a crowd.

But looking at her, you wouldn't test that theory.