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Brexit

AngryMetalsmith

Business is good, thanks for asking
Jun 4, 2006
15,267
2,800
I have no idea where I am
Apparently, the US isn't the only country no longer teaching civics.

Buyers remorse.

Edit to add a possible "No faith in humanity x-post".

Almost as if voting has consequences.
Saw somewhere that the top two Google searches from Britain following the vote were;

1. What does it mean to leave the EU ?

2. What is the EU ?


Apparently the US does not have the market cornered on dumb fucks who make poor choices out of fear based on lies told by politicians. If what just happened in Britain is any indicator, November should be one Hell of a shit storm here in the states.
 

Mo(n)arch

Turbo Monkey
Dec 27, 2010
4,263
1,189
Italy/south Tyrol
#borexit
What a fvcking cvnt.Seriously, wtf.
Maybe some people understand now, that the populists are just yelling somewhere but aren't willing to take on responsibility.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
30,055
5,510
Riding the baggage carousel.
That's IMHO a very dangerous thought process to adopt. I grew up in the "We (the politically talented and educated elites) know what's better for you - it's science" world - and I don't plan to repeat. :fie:
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
-Winston Churchill

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
-H. L. Mencken

I first saw your post yesterday, and I've spent a good deal of time pondering it yesterday and today. It's actually something I consider quite a lot, when I think about politics, and how oft I find them frustrating. The two quotes above are ones that come to my mind quite regularly when this happens.

For Churchill, his reflections on Democracy came at what was most likely the time of his most bitter defeat. He'd lead the UK through WW2, only to be thrown out on his ass by the voting public right as victory was sealed. But even then, he was quoted "They have a perfect right to kick me out. That is democracy". We should all be so gracious. Even if it is the sort of gracious that only the English can somehow manage to turn into insult at the same time.

Mencken though, surely spoke of a version of democracy, that I at least, certainly find more relateable than Churchill's on most days. Especially in this Neo-con backwater that I live in. It appeals to the Id to think how much better, easier, things would be if only the "smart people" were in charge. People who think exactly as I do of course. But as you yourself well know, the road to political hell, is certainly paved with the good intentions of people like Mencken, who was if not a racist, certainly flirted with the idea, and who was definitely an anti-Semite.
When I'm not pissed off at the world, I like Churchill's version a lot more of course. Flawed though it may be, I remain convinced that this system, the voice of the people, with it's idiocy, it's vice, its bigotry and it's racisms, but also with it's goodness, it's pragmatism, it's kindness, and it's justice, is the best we may do for sometime. Until such time as we find a better way, I believe it is our obligation to do the best we can, with the people we are given. It's never easy, it's often maddening, and even though I quit being a religious man many years ago, I still find hope in the words:
"Let us realize that the arc of the moral universe is long, but bends towards justice"
-Martin Luther King.

"At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it?-- Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never!--All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years.
At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."
-Abraham Lincoln.
 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
I first saw your post yesterday, and I've spent a good deal of time pondering it yesterday and today. It's actually something I consider quite a lot, when I think about politics, and how oft I find them frustrating.
What's worse in your opinion - an oppressive society where (most) people lookup to noble ideals and yearn for a change , or a "free" society where the electorate is lazy, uninspired, easy to corrupt and ripe for losing its freedoms?

Hint: I've seen both extremes in the same country, same people, just a few decades (less than 30 years) apart.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
30,055
5,510
Riding the baggage carousel.
What's worse in your opinion - an oppressive society where (most) people lookup to noble ideals and yearn for a change , or a "free" society where the electorate is lazy, uninspired, easy to corrupt and ripe for losing its freedoms?
I'm not sure one is "worse" than the other. I do believe that the second, inevitably leads to the first, at least the "oppressive" portion. This plays a huge role in my frustration with the current state of affairs. The milieu, both here, and as much as I understand politics abroad, seems to be one where anti-intellectualism abounds. When someone with an education is sneered at as an "elite", when “people in this country have had enough of experts” becomes an argument for something, IMHO we are, at least beginning, to tread down a very dark path. Down that road lies bigotry and oppression, a return to the ideals of fascism and totalitarianism that we had thought defeated, not all that many decades ago.
 

jonKranked

Press Button, Receive Stupid
Nov 10, 2005
60,530
7,731
media blackout
I'm not sure one is "worse" than the other. I do believe that the second, inevitably leads to the first, at least the "oppressive" portion. This plays a huge role in my frustration with the current state of affairs. The milieu, both here, and as much as I understand politics abroad, seems to be one where anti-intellectualism abounds. When someone with an education is sneered at as an "elite", when “people in this country have had enough of experts” becomes an argument for something, IMHO we are, at least beginning, to tread down a very dark path. Down that road lies bigotry and oppression, a return to the ideals of fascism and totalitarianism that we had thought defeated, not all that many decades ago.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
6,370
2,041
Ottawa, Canada
I think this article captures my thinking nicely: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/04/opinion/freedom-fireworks-and-brexit.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0

"democracy", imo, is tough to define. Is it simply majority rule? Is it that simple? how do you protect the rights of minorities? In the article, they say that referendums are politically expedient, and I agree. There has to be some form of checks and balances, otherwise you end up with tyranny. That's why I'm a firm supporter of Charter of Rights and Freedoms, even though it's an imperfect system, and that's why I think this notion of a stay-or-leave referendum was more a question of political expediency than democracy in action. And a generation (or more) or people is going to pay for the tyranny of the uninformed and/or misinformed...
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,672
0
Feeling the lag
I realise that I am late to this party, but I feel I should point out that it was not just the dumb ****s that voted leave; at least 3 people I work with who are university educated, well-paid professionals voted leave and have told me that they did so partially as a protest vote, not expecting the leave vote to actually make more than 50%.

Having typed that I realise that what I actually need is to revise my definition of the word dumb,
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
12,647
664
Front Range, dude...
I think this article captures my thinking nicely: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/04/opinion/freedom-fireworks-and-brexit.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0

"democracy", imo, is tough to define. Is it simply majority rule? Is it that simple? how do you protect the rights of minorities? In the article, they say that referendums are politically expedient, and I agree. There has to be some form of checks and balances, otherwise you end up with tyranny. That's why I'm a firm supporter of Charter of Rights and Freedoms, even though it's an imperfect system, and that's why I think this notion of a stay-or-leave referendum was more a question of political expediency than democracy in action. And a generation (or more) or people is going to pay for the tyranny of the uninformed and/or misinformed...
Ironic that this was posted on 4 July.

Democracy is a red herring. There are those out there who are simply too fucking dumb to govern themselves, and they should be given a box of crayons and sent off to the corner to amuse themselves.
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
10,366
2,546
AK
I realise that I am late to this party, but I feel I should point out that it was not just the dumb ****s that voted leave; at least 3 people I work with who are university educated, well-paid professionals voted leave and have told me that they did so partially as a protest vote, not expecting the leave vote to actually make more than 50%.

Having typed that I realise that what I actually need is to revise my definition of the word dumb,
Going to a University does not prevent one from being a dumb shit.
 

AngryMetalsmith

Business is good, thanks for asking
Jun 4, 2006
15,267
2,800
I have no idea where I am
Ironic that this was posted on 4 July.

Democracy is a red herring. There are those out there who are simply too fucking dumb to govern themselves, and they should be given a box of crayons and sent off to the corner to amuse themselves.
Oh what the fuck man ?

Why you gotta put them in our corner. They'll eat all the good Crayons and poop on themselves.