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Brexit

Pesqueeb

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
42,332
19,835
Riding past the morgue.
Calexit

When I was eating breakfast in Redding yesterday, this was the lead story in the local paper. These loons have been around for a long time, I can remember my dad making fun of these idiots in the 80's, but the whole "trump" thing seems to be some sort of moron viagra.
 
Jm_

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,491
10,965
AK
That'll be one hell of a wall. Skiing Heavenly will suck.
 
6thElement

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
17,533
15,063
dan-o said:
Forgive me if you’ve stated this before, but what’s your view on brexit?
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Voted for by people who were fearmongered/lied to by outside influences and who want things back how they "used to be".

I'm a UK immigrant working abroad, I can have no complaints about immigrants from Eastern Europe wanting to head to the UK to work. I see it as a similar situation to Mexicans/South Americans legally coming to the US to do the manual work the US populace deems beneath them nowadays.

The last US presidential election had similar outside influences with similar consequences.

With an EU passport I can currently work in 28 different countries, with just a UK passport that's a smaller world to go out into.

Not sure which state you grew up in @dan-o , but imagine you had wanted to live and work in Rhode Island your entire life. Then as you reached ~17 years old, an election outside your control suddenly decided you have to live and work in your state of North Dakota for the rest of your life. Unless you can somehow receive a work visa to go live/work in another state.

I think that's what a lot of young UK people have suddenly had put upon them.
 
dan-o

dan-o

Turbo Monkey
Jun 30, 2004
6,499
2,805
6thElement said:
Voted for by people who were fearmongered/lied to by outside influences and who want things back how they "used to be".

I'm a UK immigrant working abroad, I can have no complaints about immigrants from Eastern Europe wanting to head to the UK to work. I see it as a similar situation to Mexicans/South Americans legally coming to the US to do the manual work the US populace deems beneath them nowadays.

The last US presidential election had similar outside influences with similar consequences.

With an EU passport I can currently work in 28 different countries, with just a UK passport that's a smaller world to go out into.

Not sure which state you grew up in @dan-o , but imagine you had wanted to live and work in Rhode Island your entire life. Then as you reached ~17 years old, an election outside your control suddenly decided you have to live and work in your state of North Dakota for the rest of your life. Unless you can somehow receive a work visa to go live/work in another state.

I think that's what a lot of young UK people have suddenly had put upon them.
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Thanks for the reply.
Was just curious as the ‘cheese submarine’ argument could apply to either side of the argument.

I lived in NL for 5 years leading up to EU so have a decent understanding of what’s at stake.

Most of my friends favored the free transfer of legal workers as they liked the expanded horizons. Enthusiasm for living under groupthink rules was more the sticking point, especially among the Brits.
 
StiHacka

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,510
In hell. Welcome!
dan-o said:
Most of my friends favored the free transfer of legal workers as they liked the expanded horizons. Enthusiasm for living under groupthink rules was more the sticking point, especially among the Brits.
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Look at the affectionate display of popularity that France is giving Mr. Macron these days. Many people in the EU, especially the poorer countries, see him with similar enthusiasm these days - and blame the EU bureaucracy and outreach for hardships in their lives.
 
stevew

stevew

resident influencer
Sep 21, 2001
41,337
10,263
6thElement said:
I see it as a similar situation to Mexicans/South Americans legally coming to the US to do the manual work the US populace deems beneath them nowadays
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what is that percentage?

not being snarky/douchey.....
 
6thElement

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
17,533
15,063
stevew said:
what is that percentage?

not being snarky/douchey.....
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No idea, but the UK has similar issues as the US with illegal immigration/refugee requests too - which inflames the votes for the leave side I'm sure.
 
stevew

stevew

resident influencer
Sep 21, 2001
41,337
10,263
6thElement said:
No idea, but the UK has similar issues as the US with illegal immigration/refugee requests too - which inflames the votes for the leave side I'm sure.
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trump builds his wall...

other world leaders visit and do their best reagan impersonation...

"mr trump....tear down this wall"
 
mykel

mykel

closer to Periwinkle
Apr 19, 2013
5,602
4,308
sw ontario canada
SkaredShtles said:
It's a good thing that Central America and Mexico don't have any boats! If they did, the wall might not work. We dodged a bullet there...
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Yup, good thing airplanes will not be able to fly over it. Is not air travel one of the largest "holes"....people come legally but never leave...
 
slyfink

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,860
5,706
Ottawa, Canada
StiHacka said:
Look at the affectionate display of popularity that France is giving Mr. Macron these days. Many people in the EU, especially the poorer countries, see him with similar enthusiasm these days - and blame the EU bureaucracy and outreach for hardships in their lives.
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I see this too. People like to blame others for the hardship in their lives.

IMO, the French elected Macron because they wanted change. It was a rejection of the "traditional" socialist/right wing parties. He was clearly a free-market capitalist. Trickle-down economics was his whole freakin' platform. And the people wanted change. So they got it. But now they're realizing change takes time. and sometimes it can be hard. so let's burn this motherfucker to the ground!

In the US, it seems that the majority of the coverage primarily points to the rise in gas tax as the reason for the "revolt". But that law was enacted by the previous (socialist) government. The reality is that the people are reacting to that law coming into effect at the same time as the current government's plan to reduce the wealth tax. And in all fairness, the optics really suck on that.

All that being said, people vote against their own self-interest all the time. When things inevitably go to shit, it's easy to blame "the other" (be it immigrants, the government, the bureaucrats, etc etc etc...).

And here's an honest question for you: when the eastern EU countries were looking to join the EU, what was the quality of life there at the time? My understanding, and what I'm basing my opinions on is that things were pretty shitty. And then things got better. And now, things aren't so rosy. But I don't think the solution is to go back to the way things were (fascism, communism, totalitarianism etc...). Yeah, living in a free-market economy, with a modicum of a welfare state, and a functioning democracy can be hard at times. And it's not perfect, but imo, it's the least-bad option out there.

And I feel that's what the EU represents. It's the least bad option. Sure there could be less bureaucracy, sure some group-decisions are hard on certain countries and benefit others more, but overall, the outcomes for the people within the EU have been positive...
 
Jm_

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,491
10,965
AK
SkaredShtles said:
It's a good thing that Central America and Mexico don't have any boats! If they did, the wall might not work. We dodged a bullet there...
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Or tunnels, or catapults, or drones, or airplanes, or trebuchets, or submarines, or smuggling through the checkpoint itself...
 
StiHacka

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,510
In hell. Welcome!
slyfink said:
And here's an honest question for you: when the eastern EU countries were looking to join the EU, what was the quality of life there at the time? My understanding, and what I'm basing my opinions on is that things were pretty shitty. And then things got better. And now, things aren't so rosy. But I don't think the solution is to go back to the way things were (fascism, communism, totalitarianism etc...). Yeah, living in a free-market economy, with a modicum of a welfare state, and a functioning democracy can be hard at times. And it's not perfect, but imo, it's the least-bad option out there.
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You cannot lump all eastern EU countries together, there were huge differences between them even in socialism, and I cannot speak on behalf of all of them. While the accessibility of western quality goods, ability to travel and live abroad and many other perks materialized, the majority of the population in CZ still lives waaay below the standard of life of western countries, always have, nothing to do with recent events. If you are a young engineer with a masters in Computer science, your life is better than what your parents ever experienced, even if you are paid only 30% of your German peer living 100 miles to the west of you. If you are from a lower middle class or worse, it is hard to argue that you live a more comfortable life now. You have more liberties, but your cannot afford almost any luxuries anymore.

Life expenses are very high in eastern EU countries - it is notoriously known that food, electronics, clothing and even cars are cheaper in Germany than in CZ. On the other hand, you have this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

Prague is now as expensive as any other EU capital, but wages are 50% or less than in the west. So when some French or German or Belgian or other idiot comes with proposals for additional EU-wide taxation or other cost of living expenses, people in the poorer countries get livid and ask "why are you impacting us? And why is this bullshit always decided for us by someone else?"

IMHO, EU has failed because it became too fat with bureacracy, and will fall apart in no more than 10 years.
 
rockofullr

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
StiHacka said:
If you are a young engineer with a masters in Computer science, your life is better than what your parents ever experienced, even if you are paid only 30% of your German peer living 100 miles to the west of you. If you are from a lower middle class or worse, it is hard to argue that you live a more comfortable life now. You have more liberties, but your cannot afford almost any luxuries anymore.
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Just curious, what luxuries could lower middle class Czech citizen afford before the EU that they can not afford now?
 
rockofullr

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
StiHacka said:
Booze, ciggies, gas, better quality food, housing, retirement before getting too fucking old.
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Strange. I don't see any reason for the cost of basic goods to significantly increase due to joining the EU. Obviously luxury items will be more expensive where the luxury goods market is smaller. Did Czech people traditionally retire at a young age?

Everything I could find regarding quality of life had Czech Republic ranked fairly high among European countries.

And what time period are we comparing this to? I'm no Czech history buff but I think that region of the world had some pretty tough times not so long ago.
 
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StiHacka

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,510
In hell. Welcome!
rockofullr said:
Strange. I don't see any reason for the cost of basic goods to significantly increase due to joining the EU. Obviously luxury items will be more expensive where the luxury goods market is smaller. Did Czech people traditionally retire at a young age?

Everything I could find regarding quality of life had Czech Republic ranked fairly high among European countries.

And what time period are we comparing this to? I'm no Czech history buff but I think that region of the world had some pretty tough times not so long ago.
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Partly because the influx of duty-free goods from the EU and dumping practices killed many of the traditional businesses or whole agricultural and manufacturing industries; partly thanks to regulations, new fees, taxes etc. All VAT income now goes to Brussels, too. Influx of speculative capital increased housing costs 3x since the entry and similar trend happened with the cost of agricultural land.

When I was a kid, the retirement age was around 57 for women and early 60s for men. Remember that most people then had spent their lives in an environment where there was no real way of saving for retirement (stock market didn't exist, ownership of western currency was prohibited without permission, etc.), people were force to work from young age, and unemployment was criminal offense punished by imprisonment so it is hard to compare with retirement practices in modern western societies.
 
Jm_

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,491
10,965
AK
StiHacka said:
When I was a kid, the retirement age was around 57 for women and early 60s for men. Remember that most people then had spent their lives in an environment where there was no real way of saving for retirement (stock market didn't exist, ownership of western currency was prohibited without permission, etc.), people were force to work from young age, and unemployment was criminal offense punished by imprisonment so it is hard to compare with retirement practices in modern western societies.
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It's ok, we are catching up here in the West.
 
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