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trailhacker

Turbo Monkey
Jan 6, 2003
1,233
0
In the hills around Seattle
Discuss...

Video shows officer hitting girl after she shoves him

Police to review officer's actions in videotaped punch

"By Craig Welch

Seattle Times reporter

A Seattle police officer punched a teenage girl in the face after she shoved him during a confrontation Monday afternoon that was captured by a witness on video.

KING 5 News purchased the video and aired a brief clip at the top of its 10 p.m. news broadcast on KONG TV and later, at the top of its 11 p.m. report on KING.

The video shows an unnamed officer trying to control the hands of a 19-year-old woman. A 17-year-old girl appears to try and break his grip. The 17-year-old then pushes the officer away. The officer responds by punching her in the face.
...
"
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
0
SF
My lines:

"Where's the backup?"

"Officer, your kung-fu no good (uh, ju-jitsu?)"

"Wait, two black girls in Seattle?"

"Don't taze me bro"

Thank you all. I'll be back on stage at 11. Goodnight.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,848
0
Orange County, CA
Meh, don't really see an issue there.

Although I thought jaywalking was a ticket, and not a reason to get into a wrestling match?
 
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sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
0
SF
Implyng the lack of blacks in Seattle?
If so, then... no. Well represented.

In fact, I played soccer with a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_Rice son for a few years.
Seattle

* White: 71.3% (Non-Hispanic Whites: 68.4%)
* Asian: 13.2%
* Black: 8.0%

Houston

White Americans made up 54.1% of Houston's population; of which 28.0% were non-Hispanic whites. Blacks or African Americans made up 24.3% of Houston's population;

Boston

White American making up 56.3% of Boston's population; of which 50.0% were non-Hispanic whites. Blacks or African Americans made up 23.5% of Boston's population; of which 22.2% were non-Hispanic blacks.

San Francisco

45.1% of the population was made up of non-Hispanic whites. San Francisco's African American population has declined in recent decades, from 13.4% in 1970 to 7.3%.
 

MMike

A fowl peckerwood.
Sep 5, 2001
18,222
85
just sittin' here drinkin' scotch
Yeah that was likely not wise. Wrestling with a cop generally won't end well for you.

They should throw the book at those girls.

I love all the cell phone videos going......Isn't that illegal now?
 

trailhacker

Turbo Monkey
Jan 6, 2003
1,233
0
In the hills around Seattle
Lots of statistics...
Be that as it may, the area where this occurred is probably where the majority of them live.

When I was in school (80's) they were still doing mandatory busing. The HS I went to (the other side of the city from where this happened), if blacks weren't the majority, it sure felt that way. Almost daily beetings of white folk by roving bands of blacks...
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
0
SF
Be that as it may, the area where this occurred is probably where the majority of them live.

When I was in school (80's) they were still doing mandatory busing. The HS I went to (the other side of the city from where this happened), if blacks weren't the majority, it sure felt that way. Almost daily beetings of white folk by roving bands of blacks...
On Martin Luther King Way? Are you sure the blacks live there?

A large crowd had gathered in the 3100 block of Martin Luther King Jr. Way South...
 

eaterofdog

ass grabber
Sep 8, 2006
6,906
99
Central Florida
You just don't deal with police issues by wrasslin with them. They are not interested in dying and will error on the side of caution. Shoulda kept yer mitts to yourself.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
0
SF
Being familiar with the blacks, particular the black women, first is the Jaywalking ticket. That sounds like total BS to me, and I can already picture the head tilting and the hand-on-the-hip.

Second is touching the black woman. I do not have the courage or the skills to ever, ever touch a black woman without her permission, but when the women walked away from the officer, he grabbed one of them to detain her. Good luck with that.

I wonder if the white officer lacked the verbal skills to "convince" the black women to stand there and receive a jaywalking ticket. That's my guess.
 
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$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
"ohhhhh, jaywalking...i thought you wanted me to introduce you to j.j. walker"
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,815
8
looking for classic NE singletrack
I wonder if the white officer lacked the verbal skills to "convince" the black women to stand there and receive a jaywalking ticket. That's my guess.
Actually, the officer was following pretty closely to regulation guidelines:

Officer's handbook said:
When dealing with a tense, possibly violent situation, you should immediately find the nearest black girl and punch her as hard as possible in the face. This will show the crowd you mean business, as they will only respect authority which has the threat of violence to back it up. If you're willing to punch a black girl in the face, who knows how crazy you'd go on the rest of the crowd?
Although I have to admit, jaywalking?? WTF?
 

trailhacker

Turbo Monkey
Jan 6, 2003
1,233
0
In the hills around Seattle
They have updated one (or all?) of the stories.

I find this interesting:
"The suspects' backgrounds

Both females arrested by Walsh have criminal records.

The 17-year-old was charged in November with second-degree robbery. According to prosecutors, she punched a boy in the face while she and a group of youths were on their way to a rave in South Seattle last Aug. 28. One 15-year-old boy told police that he was punched in the face, and his cellphone and $20 were stolen. A 14-year-old boy told police that he was punched in the head and his hat was stolen.

The older victim identified the teen as the person who struck in him in the face, charging papers said.

Authorities say the case was dismissed when the victims refused to testify.

In April 2008, the 17-year-old was charged with third-degree theft after she allegedly stole a minivan in Tukwila, prosecutors said. Kent police said the girl used a screwdriver to break the ignition and start the vehicle.

The charge was later amended to theft of a motor vehicle. The girl was given a deferred disposition because it was a first-time offense, said Ian Goodhew, deputy chief of staff for Prosecutor Dan Satterberg.

The 19-year-old was charged in February 2009 with third-degree assault after she allegedly cursed at a King County sheriff's deputy and knocked the deputy over.

According to charging documents, on Feb. 3, 2009, deputies were called to the Ruth Dykeman Children's Center, a Burien center for troubled girls, for a report that she was being abusive toward staff. When the teen was confronted by Deputy Amy Zarelli she pushed the female deputy, causing her to fall, charging papers said. The teen was arrested.

The teen was given a deferred disposition because it was a first-time offense, Goodhew said.

"
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
interesting, yes.
but probably not relevant (my bona fides consist of 200+ episodes of SVU)
 

trailhacker

Turbo Monkey
Jan 6, 2003
1,233
0
In the hills around Seattle
As for it being for jaywalking, if you read in the story, the first (19yo) girl tried to walk away from the officer. Then it became resisting arrest.
He was already talking to a male for this very reason when the group of four girls did the exact same thing right in front of him. The story does not say anything more about that situation.

Who knows, he might have only been trying to talk to them when they gave him attitude?
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
0
SF
I've been making jokes, but very few solid citizens will disobey an order from a LEO.

In comparison, look at this story:

Excerpts from Officer Robert Powell and NFL player Ryan Moats:

Moats: You really want to go through this right now? My mother-in-law is dying. Right now! ... I got seconds before she's dying, man!

Powell: If my mom was dying I'd probably be a little upset too, but when I saw flashing red and blues, I would stop.

Moats: Did I not stop at the red light?

Powell: You stopped, then you drove through the red light.

Moats: I stopped, I checked the traffic, I waved the traffic off, then I turned.

Powell: This is not an emergency vehicle. You do not have the right to control the traffic.

Moats: OK. All right ... just go ahead and check my insurance so I can go ahead and go. If you're gonna give me a ticket, give me a ticket. I really don't care, just ...

Powell: Your attitude says that you need one.

Moats: I don't have an attitude. All I'm asking you is just to hurry up. Cause you're standing here talking to me...

Powell: Shut your mouth and listen.

Moats: Shut my mouth? Is that how you talk to me, too?

Powell: Shut your mouth and listen. If you want to keep this going, I'll just put you in handcuffs, and I'll take you to jail for running a red light.

Moats: OK. All right.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/032609dnmetcopstop.3e9c080.html
 

pnj

Turbo Monkey till the fat lady sings
Aug 14, 2002
4,699
40
seattle
act like a bitch, get beat down like one.

This area is next to a very busy road, given the time of day (most times). There is a pedestrian overpass there for a reason.

He should have used his firearm.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,848
0
Orange County, CA
act like a bitch, get beat down like one.

This area is next to a very busy road, given the time of day (most times). There is a pedestrian overpass there for a reason.

He should have used his firearm.
Really? You think he should have just shot her? Maybe he should have held her down and raped her first? That'll learn 'em...
 

pnj

Turbo Monkey till the fat lady sings
Aug 14, 2002
4,699
40
seattle
Really? You think he should have just shot her? Maybe he should have held her down and raped her first? That'll learn 'em...
given the option of tazer, pepper spray, hand gun or fist, he should have used firepower.

Doubt this will be the last time we hear about these females in the news. This city has gone soft on crime. Parents have gone soft on teaching respect.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,848
0
Orange County, CA
given the option of tazer, pepper spray, hand gun or fist, he should have used firepower.

Doubt this will be the last time we hear about these females in the news. This city has gone soft on crime. Parents have gone soft on teaching respect.
And some people around the world think that Americans are savage retards...
 

stevew

unique white person
Sep 21, 2001
32,004
2,893
I wonder if the white officer lacked the verbal skills to "convince" the black women to stand there and receive a jaywalking ticket. That's my guess.
is there a rosetta stone for "jive"?
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,214
14
Blindly running into cactus
Discuss...

Video shows officer hitting girl after she shoves him

Police to review officer's actions in videotaped punch

"By Craig Welch

Seattle Times reporter

A Seattle police officer punched a teenage girl in the face after she shoved him during a confrontation Monday afternoon that was captured by a witness on video.

KING 5 News purchased the video and aired a brief clip at the top of its 10 p.m. news broadcast on KONG TV and later, at the top of its 11 p.m. report on KING.

The video shows an unnamed officer trying to control the hands of a 19-year-old woman. A 17-year-old girl appears to try and break his grip. The 17-year-old then pushes the officer away. The officer responds by punching her in the face.
...
"
saw that this morning. my thoughts:

1. her age has nothing to do with the equation.

2. her actions fall under "Active Resistance-Assaultive" and, by most agency's use of force policy, the officer was completely justified.

3. the officer was attempting to perform an arrest. (legal reason to be in contact). the officer encountered resistance from both parties during the arrest. the officer was assaulted and reacted with an appropriate level of force to complete the arrest.


around here, we believe that no one has the right to assault a police officer for doing his job...or any reason for that matter. we train to end the fight quickly (by punching in the face/groin/gut/kidneys...whatever target is closest if necessary) so that we're not caught in a wrestling match on the street. as soon as the "suspect" becomes assaultive we bring it right back and finish it.

for all of the critics of his actions i ask these questions:

1. how many fights have you been in your whole life? (the average cop has more fights in 1 year than the average person has in their whole life)

2. if any, how many of those fights began with a shove?

3. how many times have you been required to arrest someone who is violently resisting?

4. If YOU were required to arrest this girl, how would you handle the ARREST differently? Would you wrestle with her while her friend threatens to assault you? Would you tase/OC her?

5. would this be a non-issue if the arrestee was a man? (women are just as dangerous as men...but public perception isn't based in reality)
 
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dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,815
8
looking for classic NE singletrack
Thanks manimal!! I always appreciate your input into these threads.

My question is mainly whether the cop punching the suspect in question was the correct way to diffuse the situation? If the police chief stands behind the officer to the point that he sees nothing wrong, then should this video be shown in police training classes as the right way to handle a non-compliant suspect? Is the "punch to the face" a tactic that's taught along with police-baton work, mace, etc for use in subduing suspects?

I had a good friend go become a police officer, and the main thing that they were taught was to control and defuse situations, not escalate it. You had tools (baton, mace, gun, etc) to project confidence and authority, but in general you tried to control the situation to your advantage, not the other person's.

My issues with this are:

1) The cop escalated the situation instead of defusing it. No, we didn't see what happened at the beginning, but the fact that the situation escalated from jaywalking to "struggling with two suspects" leads me to believe that if the cop was trying to defuse the situation, he was completely unsuccessful at it.

2) Ok, this is a continuation of #1, where the cop went from struggling with a suspect to punching one of them (a female) in the face. Direct escalation, and visibly not in control of the situation.

3) Completely ineffective crowd control. By allowing the struggling to go on for so long, a crowd had gathered and the cop is VERY lucky that he was in a good area of town and that nothing bad happened.

The more I thought about this last night (ok, and the more I drank), the more I thought about how I would've reacted if I was in the crowd and it was my wife getting punched in the face. No, there's no way she would ever be struggling with an officer, but I probably would've been enraged to the point of waiting for the officer's back to be turned and doing something that I would've regretted later. Rational? No. Legal? No. Correct? Absolutely not. Understandable? Yup.

*That* is what I have an issue with. The officer never seemed in control of the situation, and the punch to the face seemed to both demonstrate that and escalate the confrontation. I have no issue with a suspect getting punched in the face while resisting arrest, I have an issue with a police officer allowing something like stopping a person for jaywalking to escalate into a 2.5 min wrestling match with 2 women.

(And stopping people for jaywalking, wtf?? That's the other aspect of this that I have an issue with, as in my mind it could be seen as a white cop using jaywalking as an excuse to harass minorities. I mean, if you were to recreate this scene and issue jaywalking fines to some of your fine, upstanding young citizens (and have the struggle with two black women as a result), I'd bet you'd have practically a full-scale race-riot on your hands from the stories I've heard about your district. And as such, it becomes not worth it. Am I wrong?)
 

-BB-

I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo
Sep 6, 2001
4,257
28
Livin it up in the O.C.
I'm sorry, but it all comes down to respect for the law. If I were being arrested for something silly like Jay-walking, I certainly would not try to actively resist.
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,214
14
Blindly running into cactus
You had tools (baton, mace, gun, etc) to project confidence and authority, but in general you tried to control the situation to your advantage, not the other person's.
his hands were tied up trying to arrest girl #1 when girl#2 assaulted him...if you've never worn a duty belt it's hard to understand how impossible it is to get to your tools when you're also trying to control a resisting person. also, at that range (12"-14"), OC isn't recommended (i'm an OC/Less-lethal instructor) because a direct shot to the eyes at that range can cause the hydraulic needle effect and damage the eye tissue.

my agency is pretty progressive with defensive tactics training and we teach that, in close quarters, to use any strike necessary to end a fight...the worst thing that can happen for an officer is to go to the ground wrestling a bad guy or girl.

this is the training system we've been using for the past 7 years. (this clip is more of a commercial for the high gear suits but you get the gist of the type of training modern law enforcement agencies are using.

as an officer, it's very important to me to know that i can end a fight quickly and efficiently if assaulted instead of "wrestling" with the bad guy until one of us gasses out.
the officer in the OP's vid did just that...he reacted to the assault and tried to end the fight quickly.
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,214
14
Blindly running into cactus
(And stopping people for jaywalking, wtf?? That's the other aspect of this that I have an issue with, as in my mind it could be seen as a white cop using jaywalking as an excuse to harass minorities. I mean, if you were to recreate this scene and issue jaywalking fines to some of your fine, upstanding young citizens (and have the struggle with two black women as a result), I'd bet you'd have practically a full-scale race-riot on your hands from the stories I've heard about your district. And as such, it becomes not worth it. Am I wrong?)
the banter i'm hearing on the blogs and such is that the beginning of the video shows the officer had just finished warning a dude about jaywalking when these girls did the same thing. he attempted to stop them to deliver the same warning and one of the girls tried to walk away.

again..not confirmed but sounds about right for how things typically go down
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,815
8
looking for classic NE singletrack
the banter i'm hearing on the blogs and such is that the beginning of the video shows the officer had just finished warning a dude about jaywalking when these girls did the same thing. he attempted to stop them to deliver the same warning and one of the girls tried to walk away.

again..not confirmed but sounds about right for how things typically go down
True, and that's what I've heard as well. However, I'll ask again, is it a good use of police resources to "give a warning about jaywalking" if it results in a full-scale resisting arrest charge? I mean, when this guy gets back to his dept, is his chief going to say "Great job, we're going to use that video in all of our upcoming officer training exercises!!" Or is he going to sit the officer down and talk about appropriate response to a situation and utilization of resources?

I mean, when you're on patrol in your ghetto, do you risk a full-blown confrontation in order to warn someone about jaywalking?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
manimal, is it true that you can clear a majority of warrants on simple traffic stops? if so, is jaywalking enforcement used a similar tool?

it does seem like a vast waste of resources if this is not the case.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
0
SF
the banter i'm hearing on the blogs and such is that the beginning of the video shows the officer had just finished warning a dude about jaywalking when these girls did the same thing. he attempted to stop them to deliver the same warning and one of the girls tried to walk away.

again..not confirmed but sounds about right for how things typically go down
This is always an annoying point for me.

I have received a few lectures about safety when receiving tickets on bicycles and motorcycles. I really don't want to hear it, but I accept it as part of the process.

After hearing about the girls' criminal records, I'm sure on paper the officer was 100% correct in every part of this arrest. I think another officer might have prevented this from ever happening, but this mythic 6'10" police officer who sounds like James Earl Jones was not there.

I certainly would not a lecture about jaywalking (or a ticket), but of course, unless I want to escalate the incident, I am going to stop and accept what is going to happen.

Unless you can do this:

 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,214
14
Blindly running into cactus
I certainly would not a lecture about jaywalking (or a ticket), but of course, unless I want to escalate the incident, I am going to stop and accept what is going to happen.
here's the way the "lecture" part often works...and i'll cite personal experience.

lots of guys ride mopeds around the hood here with their full-face helmets pulled up on top of their heads. is this a major crime? no...but a properly worn and fastened helmet is a requirement by state law. if one passes me with his helmet up i'll give the universal hand sign for "pull it down" (looks like i'm trying to get a truck driver to blow his horn ). most of the time they take my little sharades warning and comply, but every once in a while i'll get one that scoffs it off and continues to ride w/out pulling it down....so i'll go stop them, check their ID....the whole shebang. so, like jaywalking, it's the same principal...if an officer gives the courtesy warning for some minor infraction it's because he/she understands that there are more important things to worry about (and a verbal warning in passing usually works) but when the offender shrugs off the warning as something they don't have to comply with it becomes a bigger issue. we could all just be pricks and write for EVERY infraction on the books but it's much easier to just give a quick reminder when needed....however, mistaking the warning as a mere suggestion can lead to a more serious face to face moment w/ the po-po, as appears to the case with these jaywalking girls.