free will?
bumper sticker
- Thread starter stevew
- Start date
I was not taught "free will" at a Catholic school
So how do free will and original sin fit together? That's kind of like God breaking both of Usain Bolt's legs, and then telling him that if he can't run a 9 flat he's going to be tortured for eternity.
So you got the memo, huh?
This is where our Western thinking gets all jacked up, we think in "either or" concepts. The folks that brought us this idea of a God that knows everything and yet gives people free will were Eastern thinking semetic people. The culture that those ideas came out of is comfortable holding two apparently contradictory ideas true at the same time. Maybe some of our Jewish RM friends can chime in.
I'm not offering a comprehensive explaination, just the point of view of the folks that authored that Text.
Seriously, I personally believe that there is no original sin, there was no Adam and Eve in a garden. Something created the bang or "go" point of the universe, we are most likely an experiment and each of us are capable to make our own decisions, create our own version of right and wrong and will someday possibly atone in some way for everything we've done.
Well since we're just making sh*t up with no basis for belief, I guess I believe I get unlimited poontang and beer when I die.
And your version of hell would be fat chicks and O'Dooles?
My hell is the christian heaven.
No poon, no beer, and a bunch of christians and aborted fetuses all over the place. Ick.
I'm talking about original sin though, not omniscience.
Let's put it another way: Is it moral to ask someone to do an impossible task (that you know and freely admit is impossible) and then hold them responsible when they fail?
God doesn't have to be moral, dumbass.
He already drowned everyone in the world with a flood, sent his own son to die, played a joke on Abraham where he asked him to kill his first-born child, put a bunch of plagues on egypt, tortured Job for all he was worth... the list goes on.
Original sin came about so that you could tell someone who was really, really, really, really good that he/she was still going to hell.
Oh sorry about that
..........the whole "free will vs. God knows everything" discussion also touches on this a bit. Original sin is a Christian (post 325 AD) invention, not a Jewish (Jesus and early church) belief.
I'm sure some "normal" Christians paint it that way.......
The Bible talks about "Heaven on earth" not some place in the clouds and mentions a "marriage feast". For a 1st century Jew a marriage feast was a week long drunken party (that Jesus made wine for), that began with the bride and groom hooking up (with everyone in attendance just outside listening to make sure things got cosumated).
I think that most Christian have no idea what the afterlife will be like, or who will be there, frankly they make is sound boring. I like the understanding that the folks who lived when the Bible was alot better.
Yeah, people who thought the earth was flat, and didn't know where the sun went at night usually have the best info.
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131965&highlight=maggots+cancer
Perhaps you can imagine why someone would think the bumper sticker is stupid.binary visions said:
I would argue the understanding the people that wrote a particular ancient text (regardless of the text itself be it the Torah, Gospel, or Quran) is the best way to understand said text. I made no reference to their understanding of the shape of the earth or the solar system, just the concept of "original sin" and the afterlife you referred to.
I'd much rather take their understanding than say a bunch of power hungry dudes hundreds of years after the fact or some jack ass on TV with big hair and a bad suit.
People once thought there was a giant guy in the clouds named Thor, banging around huge hammers, because they were too stupid to understand where thunder came from. Im sure that's written in an ancient text somewhere, so you probably believe that too.
Ha! Ciaran was a whiny little bitch back then too...
The Church of Can You Believe This Bull****?
Wasn't all religion made up, not out of belief, but as a way to control the masses?
So I can answer this one of two ways:
I don't believe I was advocating the stories in the Bible were true in my comments on here, just clarifying the context of statements about concepts that came from the Bible.
OR
Dude you've become a real dick since I left RM last..............
LOL +reps
Im doing the exact same thing..establishing context. Trying to illustrate that people who lived before modern science had little but superstition to fall back on, when trying to answer... basically anything. Thus, their "understanding" of lots of things is probably a little screwed up. Why is that view any better than that of some televangelist?
100 years from now people are going to think our understanding is screwed up.......but does that make someone, or a group of people "too stupid" (the thunder and Thor reference)? Their science wasn't all bad in the ancienct world, they built the Pyramids and a sh*t load of other huge structures without any heavy equipment.........
Made up? Sure.
I don't think the control paradigm happened until after the fact though. Seems like some genuine attempts to basically explain some observations and institute some positive societal framework. Of course I live in the same road raging, xenophobic, greed driven world that everyone else does, so I'm not quite sure why I have this rosy outlook on past human intention.
wow, did your mother come up with that one for you?
Spoken from the only guy in this thread who actually lives with his mom.
lol, hey three meals a day and i dont have to pay for anything.... im not complaining.
Damn...got me on that one.
lol
That cut deep. I doubt I may ever recover, I guess I should pray.
i dont feel like getting into a fight with a bunch of people i dont even know and affect me in no way what so ever so ill just leave it at this.
you might as well belive in God. if hes not real then its the same turn out either way...
an i belive all this had to come from somewere.
you might as well belive in God. if hes not real then its the same turn out either way...
an i belive all this had to come from somewere.
"Might as well" believe in unicorns, sasquatch and the holocaust too, I guess.
you'll do wonders in your Philosophy 101 class in college...
Or "the female orgasm" for that matter.
belive whatever the hell ya want. ill send ya some marshmellows to roast in Hell, have fun.
And here, nicely illustrated is the problem with attempting to have a religious discussion with most religious people. They either get offended and cry like little girls (hi Ciaran!) or they go straight to a naked argument from authority that is filled with threats of eternal damnation. Notice the only real interesting discussion is with Andyman, because he doesn't take his ball and go home after stamping his feet like a little bitch (Ciaran again!)
It's coarse and savage behavior, but the boy does worship a coarse and savage God, like Burly pointed out...