Bush admin. does two good things.

mplutodh1 · Dec 31, 2003

and then what moron will lead us? not quite sure why i am so tempted to get into political discussions today!

Silver · Dec 31, 2003

1. It was ridiculous that the beef industry didn't do this themselves, especially after seeing what happened in England in the 90's, or the panic in Alberta a few months ago. I cannot for the life of me figure out why it ever came to this...

2. I don't agree with the ephedra ban, as long as the product is clearly labeled. But, I'm from the legalize everything fringe group, so I'm probably an anomaly here...I'm going to be really pissed in a few months when a GNC that didn't take it off the shelves is described as a "terrorist" organization though

MMike · Dec 31, 2003

Strangely, these are two things Canada did a long time ago...

yay Canada.

Toshi · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by ummbikes
If he would just admit he invaded Iraq for financial reasons and then resign I would almost respect him.

i'd be relieved, even. war for money is ignoble, but less horrifying than a war in the name of ideology. to risk belabouring the point, READ THIS if you haven't already and tell me it's not something more pernicious than a grab for oil:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0304.marshall.html

MMike · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by Toshi
i'd be relieved, even. war for money is ignoble, but less horrifying than a war in the name of ideology. to risk belabouring the point, READ THIS if you haven't already and tell me it's not something more pernicious than a grab for oil:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0304.marshall.html

"ignoble" "pernicious"......good words....

**picks up dictionary...flip flip flip flip flip....**

Toshi · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by MMike
"ignoble" "pernicious"......good words....

**picks up dictionary...flip flip flip flip flip....**

plus the canadian/british spelling of belabour too!

:

MTB_Rob_NC · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by ummbikes

2. Banned Ephedra.

See I'm not totally blinded by my disgust of Bush, these were smart moves to make for public health that will be greatly unpopular with the healthfood lobby and meatpacking lobbys repectively.
[/B]

This is nothing but a political move on his part. Personally I have used Ephedra products a number of times to supplement my diet and excercise program. I live in South Florida where heat stroke is a problem wether you are on ephedra or not. I followed the directions and excercised some common sense, and NEVER had a problem.

If he is so concerned about "public health" why are cigarettes still legal? I am pretty sure they killed more people last year then Hydroxy cut.

MMike · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by Toshi
plus the canadian/british spelling of belabour too! :

I didn't even notice that...I guess because it looked "right" to me!

Now if you'll excuse me, I must go ignoble my pernicious...

Jorvik · Dec 31, 2003

The ephedra ban is a load of crap. If taken as the instructions say to take them, they are harmless. I've gone through 2 bottles of Hydroxycut, 3 bottles of Lipo-6 (on my 4th), and one of Stacker. No ill effects whatsoever, other than I can't drink coffee when I'm using it. It helps the workouts and it helps with fat loss.

$tinkle · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by Toshi
i'd be relieved, even. war for money is ignoble, but less horrifying than a war in the name of ideology. to risk belabouring the point, READ THIS if you haven't already and tell me it's not something more pernicious than a grab for oil:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0304.marshall.html

ok, it's not something more pernicious than a grab for oil.

your timing could not be any worse:

L.A. Times
A Syrian trading company with close ties to the ruling regime smuggled weapons and military hardware to Saddam Hussein between 2000 and 2003, helping Syria become the main channel for illicit arms transfers to Iraq despite a stringent U.N. embargo, documents recovered in Iraq show.

The private company, called SES International Corp., is headed by a cousin of Syria's autocratic leader, Bashar Assad, and is controlled by other members of Assad's Baath Party and Alawite clan. Syria's government assisted SES in importing at least one shipment destined for Iraq's military, the Iraqi documents indicate, and Western intelligence reports allege that senior Syrian officials were involved in other illicit transfers.

Iraqi records show that SES signed more than 50 contracts to supply tens of millions of dollars' worth of arms and equipment to Iraq's military shortly before the U.S.-led invasion in March.

let me guess, you'd rather have seen this on the cover of Time:

Tell Mr. Moore i said 'hi'

MTB_Rob_NC · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by ummbikes
Anecdotal.

Originally posted by ummbikes
Hey, I'm not in any way supporting Bush at all. I was simply mentioning two positive things that happened.

As for your compelling but still anecdotal evidence on ephedra I too managed to take products containing it too and lived.

What's your thing with Anecdotal evidence? Is that suddenly forbidden on Internet chat forums? Furthermore I stated my experience with an Ephedra product, nothing more. Therefore my statement was not anecdotal...

an·ec·dot·al [ ànnək dṓtl ] or an·ec·dot·ic [ ànnək dṓtik ]

adjective

1. based on anecdotes or hearsay: consisting of or based on secondhand accounts rather than firsthand knowledge or experience or scientific investigation

If I would have said... I heard about this guy in Florida that took it....

That would be an anecdotal argument.

$tinkle · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by ummbikes
Who said anything about U.S. soldiers being National Socialists?

uhh....the Left & their twisted syllogisms

Major Premise: Bush = Hitler.
Minor Premise: Bush is commander-in-chief.
Conclusion: Ipso-facto, our military are the Brown Shirts.

(are they wearing Jump boots, or Jack boots?)

Originally posted by ummbikes
Hussein was no saint and all that jazz but explain to me why he was biggest threat to U.S. security?

why? You ready to be converted?

Originally posted by ummbikes
And still today Al Qeada runs rampant and bin Laden is free.

well, they're running all right. Running into the 4th ID and getting their 72 virgins

Originally posted by ummbikes
Occupation isn't liberation.

great bumper sticker.
Is this another example of what you would call "anecdotal"?

MTB_Rob_NC · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by ummbikes
Heh, hehe!
Got you guys riled up!

Riled up? Ha... I had been waiting for something to pass my time today at work.

Originally posted by ummbikes
My experience with anecdotal evidence is four years of college and all that critical thinkin' stuff they make us do. Biology, chemistry, critical reasoning, philosophy, you know the same stuff you probably took.

C'mon personal testemony is not valid scientificly speaking.

[/B]

Did you go to community college? If you did that would explain the error in your argument or just the flat out fact that you used a word that you didn't actually know the meaning,

No one ever claimed to have scientific evidence, or evidence of any kind saying that Ephedra was or was not harmful. I was only stating my experience as it referred to your post that Bush's administration did a good thing by banning the substance.

$tinkle · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by ummbikes
My experience with anecdotal evidence is four years of college and all that critical thinkin' stuff they make us do. Biology, chemistry, critical reasoning, philosophy, you know the same stuff you probably took.

Stinkle- My eyes are wide open on this matter and I spent the last three months doing a media analysis on the war in Iraq. I am simply asking for some sort of evidence, don't dodge the question...

then you would recognise your argument as being a strawman, and therefore, flawed. I never asserted Saddam was job 1. He is, however, a jewel for our crown; a nut for our sac.

Originally posted by ummbikes
Do you really think Al Qaeda isn't an effective terror organization?

i liken al qaeda to Marla Streb: good eye-candy for those who like carnage, but only making a rise to stardom in the winter of her life. There will be no phoenix from the ashes.

The U.S. military, however, is the Anne-Caroline Chausson, but not as hard on the eyes.

golgiaparatus · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by Mtb_Rob_FL
Did you go to community college? If you did that would explain the error in your argument or just the flat out fact that you used a word that you didn't actually know the meaning

LOL! Many I think my boss went to community college because he uses words that he doesnt know the meaning of

CC should be called 'High School II'

MTB_Rob_NC · Dec 31, 2003

Actually I did not mean that in the nasty spiteful way it might have sounded. It is a very common crack among my buddies. It was derived by some comic who I cannot remember his name....

Do you know why it is called community college? Because ANYONE in the community can go...

I love just making words up...

From an episode of "Just Shoot Me" two guys give a retired model now fashion editor a "word of the day calendar" with all kinds of made up words. She then proceeds to go on a talk show using a number of these words... It was hilarious.

MTB_Rob_NC · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by ummbikes
Ya, well, uhh your mom wears combat boots.

an·ec·dot·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nk-dtl)
adj.
also an·ec·dot·ic (-dtk) or an·ec·dot·i·cal (--kl) Of, characterized by, or full of anecdotes.
Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems (C. Claiborne Ray).

Is it incorrect to to label your statement as a "casual observation"?

Yes it would be incorrect...

ob·ser·va·tion [ òbzər váyshn ] (plural ob·ser·va·tions)
1. paying attention: the attentive watching of somebody or something

I was making a statement based on my experience.

Originally posted by ummbikes
My educational resume:

I went to 2 years of community college and now am super-senior (I could have my degree now but I need a few more specific credits for the graduate program I'm going in to.) at a state college here in Washington.[/B]

Stay in school AS LONG AS YOU CAN. This whole working thing sucks ass. Actually it is not so bad right now since I am injured and can't ride or do much of anything else. However the rest of the time working totally gets in the way of, riding, relaxing, chasing skirt, watching college football and playing fetch with my dog.

Originally posted by ummbikes
Semantics aside the fact you or me or the girl next door can use ephedra with out croaking doesn't make it safe. [/B]

Is riding a Mountain bike safe? Is driving safe? Is smoking safe? The decision to ban Ephedra is probably as close to political grand standing (all be it on a small scale) as it gets. There have been a few high profile cases that makes the "Ban" seem to be an active reaction from the Bush admin to protect our goodwill. However it is probably more along the lines of it will spin as a the Administration doing "something" as elections grow closer with an unpowerful lobbying group fighting the other side.

golgiaparatus · Dec 31, 2003

Bush? What did he have to do with the banning of ephedra? I thought that was the FDA?

Besides the FDA was thinking about banning Ephedra long before Bush was in office. I only know this because I work for a large health food manufacturer... our company stopped using Ephedra in anything as soon as the FDA started seriously talking bad about it (in 2001).

ANyway I wouldnt credit GW with that.

golgiaparatus · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by ummbikes
Ya, well, uhh your mom wears combat boots.

an·ec·dot·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nk-dtl)
adj.
also an·ec·dot·ic (-dtk) or an·ec·dot·i·cal (--kl) Of, characterized by, or full of anecdotes.
Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems (C. Claiborne Ray).

Is it incorrect to to label your statement as a "casual observation"?

I still think anecdotal is the best term to describe what type of statement you made.

My educational resume:

I went to 2 years of community college and now am super-senior (I could have my degree now but I need a few more specific credits for the graduate program I'm going in to.) at a state college here in Washington.

Semantics aside the fact you or me or the girl next door can use ephedra with out croaking doesn't make it safe.

Anecdotomy-to remove all anecdotes from a body of text

MTB_Rob_NC · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by golgiaparatus
Bush? What did he have to do with the banning of ephedra? I thought that was the FDA?

Besides the FDA was thinking about banning Ephedra long before Bush was in office. I only know this because I work for a large health food manufacturer... our company stopped using Ephedra in anything as soon as the FDA started seriously talking bad about it (in 2001).

ANyway I wouldnt credit GW with that.

I didn't, Ummbikes did, see the title of this thread. However I think it is the FDA because currently that whos jurisdiction supplements/vitamins currently fall.

ohio · Jan 2, 2004

According to common usage in the scientific community, ummbikes is right. Both Jorvik and Rob's accounts of ephedra use are "anecdotal."

Words commonly have altered meanings when used in the context of science or engineering rather than casual conversation.

edit: forgot to add... both accounts DO become "casual observations" if one were to attempt to incorporate them into a survey or study. It would require an independent entity (one who has NOT been directly involved with the product) to observe record your accounts... which were not carried out under any controlled conditions or to test a hypothesis.

What it boils down to is neither of your cases count. Sorry.

And I don't know how or why Iraq got squeezed into this thread or the definition of anecdote, but that too is incorrect.

fluff · Jan 2, 2004

Originally posted by $tinkle
ok, it's not something more pernicious than a grab for oil.

your timing could not be any worse:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
L.A. Times
A Syrian trading company with close ties to the ruling regime smuggled weapons and military hardware to Saddam Hussein between 2000 and 2003, helping Syria become the main channel for illicit arms transfers to Iraq despite a stringent U.N. embargo, documents recovered in Iraq show.

The private company, called SES International Corp., is headed by a cousin of Syria's autocratic leader, Bashar Assad, and is controlled by other members of Assad's Baath Party and Alawite clan. Syria's government assisted SES in importing at least one shipment destined for Iraq's military, the Iraqi documents indicate, and Western intelligence reports allege that senior Syrian officials were involved in other illicit transfers.

Iraqi records show that SES signed more than 50 contracts to supply tens of millions of dollars' worth of arms and equipment to Iraq's military shortly before the U.S.-led invasion in March.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I understand your point are you taking this as evidence that Syria is evil?

If so, do you recall the British 'Arms to Iraq' scandal? Should we be added to the axis of evil?

MTB_Rob_NC · Jan 2, 2004

Originally posted by ohio
According to common usage in the scientific community, ummbikes is right. Both Jorvik and Rob's accounts of ephedra use are "anecdotal."

Words commonly have altered meanings when used in the context of science or engineering rather than casual conversation.

Your point would be valid if this was a scientific paper, or even a scientific community. However if you look at the TITLE of this forum it says POLITICAL DEBATE. By posting "Bush Admin does two good things" Ummbikes was stating his opinion on their Policy making decision. Neither of us were making statements claiming we had scientific evidence that the basis for the Bush Admin's policy decisions were flawed. We were (maybe I shouldn't speak for anyone else) , I was debating UmmBikes position that the decision to make the ban was a good one.

Ummbikes was trying to negate my statements by saying they were invalid because they were anecdotal, even if that is true in a scientific community(which this is NOT), it does not make it any more or less valid than his statement that the Bush Admin's decision was "good".

Got it? :confused:

Glad we could play :rolleyes:

:

ohio · Jan 2, 2004

Originally posted by Mtb_Rob_FL
Ummbikes was trying to negate my statements by saying they were invalid because they were anecdotal, even if that is true in a scientific community(which this is NOT), it does not make it any more or less valid than his statement that the Bush Admin's decision was "good".

Got it? Glad we could play :

Sorry, we're still not playing. Unfortunately, your statements ARE less valid. You're using incorrect logic and comparing two different forms of argument. Anecdotal or opinion-based examples ARE valid when discussing moral or existential issues. For example, it was perfectly correct to state your opinion that Government should not try to protect people from themselves. It would also be reasonable to use anecdotal evidence to argue concerning issues such as capital punishment.

However, it was incorrect to assert that your experience with the drug is an example of whether or not a drug is statistically safe. It is irrelevent. You're welcome to state an opinion about the MORAL decision (goverment shouldn't play parent), but if you choose to submit evidence about a SCIENTIFIC decision (the drug is safe/unsafe)... it is a waste of words to point to a single case out of millions.

edit: forgot to say... regardless of how we choose to define the word "anecdote," the two examples offered are going to be irrelevent to anyone but those TWO single subjects, in a scientific community, a mountain biking community, or any other.

I don't mean to police your arguments (I didn't agree or disagree with any of your opinions). Just trying to help you make them better, with an understanding of logic and reason. Wow, that sounds condescending... sorry.

MTB_Rob_NC · Jan 2, 2004

Originally posted by ohio

I don't mean to police your arguments (I didn't agree or disagree with any of your opinions). Just trying to help you make them better, with an understanding of logic and reason. Wow, that sounds condescending... sorry.

That is ok, I love to argue just for the sake of arguing... I guess it was those 321543 years in debate. I should have clarified what I was arguing. However I thought the fact that I made a statement in a thread called "Bush admin does 2 good things" assumed I was commenting on that. My bad for assuming of course. There have been plenty of threads in other sections of RM debating the +/-'s of Ephedra. Is it good, bad, purple, it really does not matter much to my argument. The fact that Bush Admin banned it, and Ummbikes thinks that is good is what the argument is about.

Jorvik · Jan 2, 2004

Contol the distribution of ephedra? Sure. Ban it's sale? No. When it's abused it is no different from anything else.

I'm dubious of the FDA's clinical findings because they go against my personal experiences and personal experiences of every single person who I've talked to about products that contain ephedra.

As they've already made up their mind about this though, there's nothing I can do except keep buying them for the next 2 months until the sale is made illegal. Everybody loses, nobody gains.

narlus · Jan 2, 2004

Originally posted by Jorvik

I'm dubious of the FDA's clinical findings because they go against my personal experiences and personal experiences of every single person who I've talked to about products that contain ephedra.

take a look @ ohio's definition of anecdotal again. do you know the average size of an FDA-approved clinical trial? i'm just guessing that a statistically significant population is a lot bigger than you and people you've talked to who have used the substance...but maybe you network a lot in the ephedra community.

Jorvik · Jan 3, 2004

I've no doubt their studies have many people in them. I also don't doubt that they found what they say they found, although according to the articles I've read it really isn't too much. I'm saying that in my experience, and the experience of those around me, there have been no negative affects. Screw the fact that it is "anecdotal," I don't think that it makes it any less valid in our little debate. Last time I checked,

Although I would indeed say I'm a card carrying member of the "ephreda community". I'd say I've talked to about 30 or so users at length about it. The actual number is probably far greater, but I'll just say 30. About half of these are semi-serious bodybuilders. One of the people had a negative experience, and that was because he has blood circulation issues (I think, I'm not positive on what it was). He doesn't take it, but wishes he could. He can't take most cold medicines either. I say we ban the cold medicines as well.

ohio · Jan 3, 2004

Originally posted by Jorvik
I'd say I've talked to about 30 or so users at length about it. The actual number is probably far greater, but I'll just say 30. About half of these are semi-serious bodybuilders. One of the people had a negative experience

Couple things:
1) 50 years ago, if you asked an 18-20 year-old if they or anyone they know had any negative experiences resulting from smoking, I'm sure they would have said no.

2) You're young, you're healthy, and you read the labels carefully... you are NOT a cross-section of the ephedra market.

3) If I actually cared about your sample, I would say "1 out of 30 is a sh!tload." That is really really bad. Granted, he has interactions with other drugs, but those drugs provide a health benefit and are classified as over-the-counter MEDICATION. Ephedra is right now a supplement. If someone can prove it's health BENEFIT, then it too will become available over-the-counter as medication.

4) Body builders are EXTREMELY careful about what they put into their bodies... student athletes are less so, and teenage and college girls will OD on anything if they think it will make them slimmer.

Is narcissism really worth risking death?

MTB_Rob_NC · Jan 3, 2004

Originally posted by ohio
Couple things:
1) 50 years ago, if you asked an 18-20 year-old if they or anyone they know had any negative experiences resulting from smoking, I'm sure they would have said no.

2) You're young, you're healthy, and you read the labels carefully... you are NOT a cross-section of the ephedra market.

3) If I actually cared about your sample, I would say "1 out of 30 is a sh!tload." That is really really bad. Granted, he has interactions with other drugs, but those drugs provide a health benefit and are classified as over-the-counter MEDICATION. Ephedra is right now a supplement. If someone can prove it's health BENEFIT, then it too will become available over-the-counter as medication.

4) Body builders are EXTREMELY careful about what they put into their bodies... student athletes are less so, and teenage and college girls will OD on anything if they think it will make them slimmer.

Is narcissism really worth risking death?

Who is arguing with anecdotal evidence now?

ohio · Jan 3, 2004

Originally posted by Mtb_Rob_FL
Who is arguing with anecdotal evidence now?

I'm still not so sure you understand this whole "anecdotal" thing...

I didn't use or point to ANY evidence, let alone anecdotal something-or-other... are you just really excited about some new vocabulary?

Silver · Jan 3, 2004

Bodybuilders LIVE on anecdotal evidence.

I've known a few of them, and if one of them got bigger by eating dog**** 3 times a day, the whole gym would be doing it in a week

Bush admin. does two good things.

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