[sanjuro]

maybe , time will tell, that is why a Bunch of the polls , did not rate Dubya, Clinton or George the first, not enough time has past to be able to really determine how bad he messed up the country. hence also making that declaration right now kind of makes you look like a dumbass.

who knows 20 years from now he might be credited for bring peace to the middle east ( really really really doubtful) , or more likely be credited with starting up the crusades again.

The country is in horrible shape by any standard one could possibly measure:

We are in a financial crisis which is going to get worse.

We fighting two wars with no foreseeable conclusion.

Our diplomatic position, both with our closest allies and worst enemies, is pathetically weak.

There is a looming criminal investigation of government-ordered torture.

In review of the previous seven years, Bush might have prevented 9/11, he started a war based most likely on lies or at best stupidity, appointed incompetent toadies like Gonzalez and Browne to critical positions, and his own handling of Katrina; are all epic failures. And this does not include the post analysis of Cheney and Rove (especially when their "secret documents" are released), which won't make him look better.

I am not an expert in Presidential achievements, so this is a learning experience for me to read about the failures of Fillmore, Buchanan, and the other bad Presidents which Bush will be compared.

But I lived through Bush I and Clinton, and both had their ups and downs but the country was not in as this sad of a state when their time was up.

Frankly, I mention the polls just in support of my own opinion. Bush is the worst president in my lifetime, and unless you feel like you can refute any of the points I just made, post all the non-negative polling of Bush's Presidency you like.

 

[Samirol]

Frankly, I mention the polls just in support of my own opinion. Bush is the worst president in my lifetime, and unless you feel like you can refute any of the points I just made, post all the non-negative polling of Bush's Presidency you like.

Truman had low poll numbers coming out of the presidency, but is considered by some to have been a good President

 

[Inclag]

Just throwing this out there, but as the most advanced nation/economy on this planet, why are there so many people that are perfectly contempt being lifers working at a ho hum labor job? I just don't understand the argument about outsourced labor. If there are people that can do the same labor as Joe Mooseknuckle Pack for less, under the similar regulatory guidelines such that these other laborers are protected and have rights, then why is there outrage?

This is a bit of a blanket statement, but one would think that in order to stay ahead of the curve, as a nation there needs to be a concerted effort to strive for newer technologies, manufacturing processes, and laborer skills. I'm sorry, but a laborer that does for example production metal fabrication that is no different than what was done in the 1960's or 1970's, is for the most part obsolete. In Ohio, the union dolts are complaining because GE isn't hiring union workers to fabricate the bearing assemblies for wind turbines. In fact, GE is having a difficult time hiring any people for this job union or not, because these people who are applying are ex-auto workers that worked on auto bearings or they just have the high end skills necessary. Look, I respect that there are people that work with their hands and make "an honest living", but I think there needs be a reality check in that the days of reaping the rewards and being complacent in the described lines of work are over as other nations grow and the overvalued bubble of these jobs burst as the market is flooded with new laborers equally qualified.

 

[sanjuro]

Truman had low poll numbers coming out of the presidency, but is considered by some to have been a good President

I know it is common to compare Bush's unpopularity to Truman.

From my quick research, Truman seems to have annoyed both sides of the aisle, and it looks like pure politics which affected his popularity.

I found this piece: http://korea50.army.mil/history/biographies/truman.shtml, and it listed a Republican congress which he fought vehemently but also his own divided Democratic party, which was included the racist Strong South, who opposed him on civil rights.

Things like the creation of NATO or the start of the Civil Rights movement was all his achievements. I also like this description about the Korean War and the fight against communism:

Harry Truman, although about as “typical” an American as could ever be found, was not a popular president in his final years in office, if the polls were any indication. His decisive, even courageous, action against Communist aggression in June 1950, was offset by the stalemate with which the Korean War concluded. His reputation, at least among historians, remains high for his principled stand in opposition to the worst excesses of domestic anti-Communist hysteria, despite his misguided loyalty program. Many also revere his memory for his mostly abortive “Fair Deal” social program. For most Americans with longer memories, Truman will be best remembered for his nose-thumbing upset victory in 1948 and his decision to take America into the Korean War. Historians note his decision to drop the atomic bomb over Japan, but he should also be remembered for the fact that, despite pressures to the contrary, he did not drop the bomb over Korea.

 

[Cant Climb]

What? He put the U.S into 2 wars that can't be won, put the economy down the ****ter, and caused international incidents by violating the sovereignty of multiple states.

These wars are in a new Ear and are being fought in a new way. You can argue we should have never gone to Iraq in the first place and be distrustful of the reasons given. But Bush has sought solutions and helped develpoed new ways to solve the 'governing' issues in a weak (weak because we bombed the sh&t out of them) country like Iraq. These solutions may counter balance Bush's poor decisions for getting us so deep into Iraq in the first place... These solutions (which are still being refined) likely will be applied over and over again during the next genration...

As for the Economy....is was Greed....but i am still foggy on who is to blame on opening the flood gates of greed....?........anyone....?...was ALL of the deregulation during the Bush tenure...?....

 

[Samirol]

These wars are in a new Ear and are being fought in a new way. You can argue we should have never gone to Iraq in the first place and be distrustful of the reasons given. But Bush has sought solutions and helped develpoed new ways to solve the 'governing' issues in a weak (weak because we bombed the sh&t out of them) country like Iraq. These solutions may counter balance Bush's poor decisions for getting us so deep into Iraq in the first place... These solutions (which are still being refined) likely will be applied over and over again during the next genration...

If you are referring to fighting terrorism, well, it isn't a new thing. Terrorism and fighting terrorism has been around for awhile, and invading a country doesn't work. What did Bush do that was so novel in Iraq? Creating a constitution for a country you just bombed the **** out of is nothing new.

As for the Economy....is was Greed....but i am still foggy on who is to blame on opening the flood gates of greed....?........anyone....?...was ALL of the deregulation during the Bush tenure...?....

Congress pushed through the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act under Clinton, but had so many votes that it wouldn't have been able to be vetoed.

 

[Cant Climb]

If you are referring to fighting terrorism, well, it isn't a new thing. Terrorism and fighting terrorism has been around for awhile, and invading a country doesn't work. What did Bush do that was so novel in Iraq? Creating a constitution for a country you just bombed the **** out of is nothing new.

Not defending the invasion at all. Not giving Bush a big thumbs up. Not calling Bush novel. Read my post again.

Just saying some things are being learned in Iraq. Mostly do to the desperation of our failing there in the first place. It's conceivable the lessons learned are going to be applied over and over again in the coming generation....

 

[Samirol]

Not defending the invasion at all. Not giving Bush a big thumbs up. Not calling Bush novel. Read my post again.

Just saying some things are being learned in Iraq. Mostly do to the desperation of our failing there in the first place. It's conceivable the lessons learned are going to be applied over and over again in the coming generation....

You said that he developed new ways to govern a weak state.

If we didn't learn anything from Vietnam, what makes you think that we will learn anything from Iraq and Afghanistan?

 

[$tinkle]

The country is in horrible shape by any standard one could possibly measure:

i guess when you don't consider that we both nominated & elected our first non white guy, & haven't been hit w/ another terr'st attack since islamists had their biggest coming out (when other countries haven't fared that well: spain, the netherlands, india, israel, saudi arabia, singapore, bali, u.k., pakistan, thailand, jordan, russia, turkey, france, lebanon, indonesia, morocco, somalia, kenya), then yeah, it's far short of raining men

Frankly, I mention the polls just in support of my own opinion. Bush is the worst president in my lifetime, and unless you feel like you can refute any of the points I just made, post all the non-negative polling of Bush's Presidency you like.

since i've only paid close attention since clinton, i can only eval since then & say that bush is #2 for me; so in that sense we're not that far from each other

 

[sanjuro]

Not defending the invasion at all. Not giving Bush a big thumbs up. Not calling Bush novel. Read my post again.

Just saying some things are being learned in Iraq. Mostly do to the desperation of our failing there in the first place. It's conceivable the lessons learned are going to be applied over and over again in the coming generation....

I don't think every decision in Iraq has been a disaster, and frankly, I think we have improved somewhat.

Petraeus seems like he is doing a good job. But Rumsfeld was miserable as Defense Secretary, and he was instrumental in declaring war in Iraq.

Don't forget, several retired generals heavily criticized Rumsfeld in an unprecedented move.

 

[sanjuro]

i guess when you don't consider that we both nominated & elected our first non white guy, & haven't been hit w/ another terr'st attack since islamists had their biggest coming out (when other countries haven't fared that well: spain, the netherlands, india, israel, saudi arabia, singapore, bali, u.k., pakistan, thailand, jordan, russia, turkey, france, lebanon, indonesia, morocco, somalia, kenya), then yeah, it's far short of raining men
since i've only paid close attention since clinton, i can only eval since then & say that bush is #2 for me; so in that sense we're not that far from each other

Well, Obama's election has everything to do with Bush's poor performance, and saying we haven't been attacked again as a positive is like saying the cancer only spread to one part of my body.

And are you saying you think Clinton did a worse job than Bush? Because I only have two words for you, "Budget Surplus".

 

[Cant Climb]

You said that he developed new ways to govern a weak state.

If we didn't learn anything from Vietnam, what makes you think that we will learn anything from Iraq and Afghanistan?

HE didn't develop new ways......but it started during his administration. Not sure how that plays out in history.......will he get credit for it...?....or shouldn't he because he started the mess...?....

Similarities and differences of Iraq vs. Vietnam can be debated til the cows come home.....

 

[$tinkle]

and saying we haven't been attacked again as a positive is like saying the cancer only spread to one part of my body.

if you don't see it as a positive, just how then do you see it? oh, and don't forget to use the word "remission" when making a cancer analogy. it may come in handy.

And are you saying you think Clinton did a worse job than Bush? Because I only have two words for you, "Budget Surplus".

are you saying they had similar fiscal challenges? but even so, if we were to only evaluate their legacies upon their fiscal performances, i'd give the edge to clinton, only b/c he didn't go against his platform's convictions of smaller gov't

also, don't conveniently forget that he too "ignored multiple states' sovereignty", just in case that should still factor into the big picture

 

[Secret Squirrel]

are you saying they had similar fiscal challenges?

Are you saying Bush didn't ask for his fiscal challenges?

I mean, I only feel sorry for someone when they "accidentally" hit their thumb with a hammer once.

 

[sanjuro]

are you saying they had similar fiscal challenges? but even so, if we were to only evaluate their legacies upon their fiscal performances, i'd give the edge to clinton, only b/c he didn't go against his platform's convictions of smaller gov't

You are right about that. Clinton had to deal with a deficit. Dubya had a nice surplus when he started.

 

[splat]

all I can say is Read History.

you would be the first to lambaste any conservative who would come in here ranting about something with out checking the facts first , and you are quite guilty of do in that here.

and basically if you presenting your Bush is the worst in history based on you history of Bus Vs Clinton , that yes he is.

and if you want to look at current Presidents , look at Nixon's Administration, Both VP and President having to resign or both would have wound up in prison and some lots say should have, ( far more then say Bush and Cheney should ) leading to the only president who was not elected.

Look at Carter , a Good Man , but in way over his head with the Job and became a Lame duck embarrassment

LBJ , Some still think he is Satan for the Vietnam war , but history is showing a lot of his other programs were great, but at the time controversial.

 

[rockwool]

I don't think every decision in Iraq has been a disaster, and frankly, I think we have improved somewhat.

Petraeus seems like he is doing a good job. But Rumsfeld was miserable as Defense Secretary, and he was instrumental in declaring war in Iraq.

Don't forget, several retired generals heavily criticized Rumsfeld in an unprecedented move.

I have to ad, your evaluation is totally in the eyes of and for the US, not the people of Iraq that are enduring an injust war and occupation by your forces. They have to be taken into account as well.





Anybody care to explain why Carter is viewed so bad except for the rap he had to take with that failed Delta mission?

 

[splat]

Anybody care to explain why Carter is viewed so bad except for the rap he had to take with that failed Delta mission?

Well lets see Double digit inflation , the Prime interest Rate made it to 19% !!!
Huge Huge Cuts in defense Spending ( Over $6 Billion in the first 100 days ) that wreacked havoc with an already suffering economy


Internationally the US became a Joke , He would not stand up to Anyone ,
Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, the Soviet Union Bullied us into SALT II ( which reduced our Nukes While only having the Soviet Union stay at status quo , which they ignored ) , gave away the Panama canal , under threat of Panama Blowing it up, and then of course IRAN. ( which released the Hostage exactly 1 minute after Reagan Became president )

Huge Huge Cuts in defense Spending ( Over $6 Billion in the first 100 days ) that wreacked havoc with an already suffering economy


And he lost the 1980 election BIG time !! only getting 49 elcectoral votes

 

[$tinkle]

don't forget the iranian embassy hand wringing - reagan made good use of that to get elected as well to demonstrate how ineffective carter was

 

[MikeD]

Anyone read "Guests of the Ayatollah?"

 

[Samirol]

Rockwool, basically he was an actual leftist that came in at a bad economic time and got hit with a terrible economic situation. He was a complete milquetoast, though.

I would take 10 Carter administrations over a single Reagan, the scars left on the international world by the Reagan administration still exist today.

 

[sanjuro]

all I can say is Read History.

you would be the first to lambaste any conservative who would come in here ranting about something with out checking the facts first , and you are quite guilty of do in that here.

and basically if you presenting your Bush is the worst in history based on you history of Bus Vs Clinton , that yes he is.

and if you want to look at current Presidents , look at Nixon's Administration, Both VP and President having to resign or both would have wound up in prison and some lots say should have, ( far more then say Bush and Cheney should ) leading to the only president who was not elected.

Look at Carter , a Good Man , but in way over his head with the Job and became a Lame duck embarrassment

LBJ , Some still think he is Satan for the Vietnam war , but history is showing a lot of his other programs were great, but at the time controversial.

I am not comparing Bush to just Clinton and Bush I. I find this an interesting opportunity to explore more about the other Presidents, but I have decent amount of knowledge of every President since WWI, and while possibly Harding is worse, Bush has closed that gap.

As for LBJ, the Great Society was a program which changed the attitude of Americans, but with much upheaval. Obviously, it was a necessary movement.

But I don't see any massive societal changes which Bush has enacted that people say, "Good Job George", unless you count going to war is a good thing for society.

 

[Defenestrated]

At least LBJ had a reasonably good domestic policy to make the pill that was his fubar foreign policy a little easier to swallow.

 

[sanjuro]

 

[splat]

Interesting Poll.

most polls tend not to include WIlliam H, Harrison, after all he was only in office 33 days.

Other wise I have no problem with there bottom 10, there top 10, I question.

 

[skinny mike]

uh reagan in the top 10? wat?

 

[$tinkle]

kennedy #6?

pencils down. name one good thing he did which would lead to him being in the top 1/7th of the class.

 

[sanjuro]

Interesting Poll.

most polls tend not to include WIlliam H, Harrison, after all he was only in office 33 days.

Other wise I have no problem with there bottom 10, there top 10, I question.

I should point out when I started this thread, I was not trying to do a historical analysis. Bush is a horrible president, the worst I've seen, but I do not have the historical knowledge to make any kind of judgment. Mostly I was just really mad at the time.

I find bottom 6 interesting. 4 of them served around the Civil War, which is the worst event in our history. And our best President served during the war.

 

[ohio]

kennedy #6?

pencils down. name one good thing he did which would lead to him being in the top 1/7th of the class.

Space program, open channel to Kruschev, peace corps, civil rights act, nuclear test ban. Not even to mention tremendous populist domestic policy.

You want the full list?

 

[$tinkle]

Space program, open channel to Kruschev, peace corps, civil rights act, nuclear test ban. Not even to mention tremendous populist domestic policy.

You want the full list?

are you kidding me? he was a big ole puss when it came to the ruskies. same goes for civil rights: it was putting him into very politically unpopular positions, which he wanted to avoid.

and if we're going to give the full list, please add that he hid his addison's disease, chronic pain from a(n ironically) collapsed spinal column, colitis, ulcers, had 3 different doctors (concurrently, i believe), one of whom most famously gave him amphetamine shots before his first meeting w/ kruschev.

i remember reading about one of his speeches he gave that set some new record for most words spoken per minute. now i understand how he was able to do it.

for me, he was middle of the bell curve, and had unrealized potential if only he'd lived long enough to find his sea legs. i'd have to project a higher ranking for obama when he's out.

 

[splat]

Space program, open channel to Kruschev, peace corps, civil rights act, nuclear test ban. Not even to mention tremendous populist domestic policy.

You want the full list?

yes I do. I also Feel Kennedy should not be in the top 10. ( don't forget Bay of Pigs in your List )

I also question Ike, Truman , Wilson and T. Roosevlet. in the top 10. and the lack of Monroe , Polk and Madison. especially Madison!!

FDR is always interesting to look at some Historians say he is the Best others the worst.

 

[ohio]

From a totally independent, unbiased source:
November 8, 1960

Senator John F. Kennedy is elected 35th President of the United States.

January 20, 1961

John F. Kennedy is inaugurated President--"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

January 21 and 24, 1961

President signs Executive Orders increasing quantity and quality of surplus food distributed to jobless Americans and expanding Food for Peace Program to aid overseas needy.

January 30, 1961

President asks Congress to include health insurance in Social Security Program.

February 2, 1961

President asks Congress for program to help end recession, including food stamps, extended benefits for unemployed workers and welfare payments for their children.

February 9, 1961

President requests legislation assisting medical and dental colleges and students.

February 15, 1961

President warns Soviets to avoid interfering with United Nations pacification of the Congo.

March 1, 1961

President initiates Peace Corps to carry American skills and idealism to new and developing countries.

March 13, 1961

President proposes a long-term Alliance for Progress between the United States and Latin America, emphasizing democratic reform and economic development.

March 22, 1961

President calls for long-term Foreign Aid program with new emphasis on self help.

March 23, 1961

President warns Communists that cease fire must precede negotiations for a neutral and independent Laos.

March 28, 1961

President initiates the largest and most rapid defense buildup in United States' peacetime history, doubling Polaris missile program, increasing armed bomber and other missile programs, adding five combat ready divisions and quadrupling anti-guerilla forces.

April 20, 1961

President assumes responsibility for failed Bay of Pigs invasion, says policies and procedures will be changed.

May 1, 1961

President signs long-sought Area Redevelopment Bill to aid communities with chronic unemployment.

May 25, 1961

President proposes an American space effort greater than all previous efforts combined, and designed to put an American space team on the moon within the decade.

June 3, 1961

President opens channels of communication with Chairman Khrushchev of the Soviet Union in an informal conference in Vienna.

June 30, 1961

President signs bill extending Social Security benefits to five million people and permitting people to retire with benefits at age 62.

President signs most comprehensive Housing Bill in history, initiating aid to middle income families and mass transportation users, and increasing urban renewal and elderly housing.

July 20, 1961

President signs bill doubling Federal effort to halt water pollution.

July 25, 1961

President tells nation of determination to deter war in West Berlin, increasing military might and manpower--Soviet deadline for East German Treaty subsequently passes.

August 7, 1961

President signs first of three bills creating National Seashore Parks, the first major addition to the National Park System in 16 years.

August 8, 1961

President signs most comprehensive wheat and feed grain bill since 1938, resulting in higher farm income and lower food surpluses.

September 3, 1961

President signs $1.25 Minimum Wage Bill, expanding coverage by several million for the first time since original passage.

September 22, 1961

President signs bill committing United States to unprecedented search for economic breakthrough in the conversion of salt water to fresh.

President signs bill establishing first Federal program to help combat juvenile delinquency.

September 25, 1961

President, in speech to United Nations General Assembly endorses complete and general disarmament and challenges Soviets to a "peace race."

September 26, 1961

President signs bill establishing the first full-scale, full-time Disarmament Agency in the world.

December 15, 1961

President renews American commitment to preserve independence of Vietnam.

March 2, 1962

President announces that Soviet resumption of atmospheric nuclear testing makes American testing necessary in late April unless effective treaty is signed.

March 15, 1962

President signs first major Federal bill to retrain jobless victims of automation and chronic unemployment.

April 5, 1962

President calls for overhaul of Federal transportation policy, emphasizing increased and equal competition instead of regulation--also renews request for urban mass transportation program.

April 11, 1962

President urges reconsideration of inflationary steel price increase--increase was rescinded shortly thereafter.

July 12, 1962

President couples depreciation reform with tax credit to spur greater investment in plant and industry.

July 26, 1962

President signs the most far-reaching revision of public welfare legislation since enactment in 1935, emphasizing family rehabilitation and training instead of dependency.

September 26, 1962

President signs bill enabling construction of world's largest atomic power plant in Hanford, Washington.

September 30, 1962

President announces action by Federal Government to carry out court order admitting James Meredith to the University of Mississippi.

October 2, 1962

President signs United Nations bond issue bill authorizing American participation in financing United Nations peacekeeping operations in the Congo and elsewhere.

October 10, 1962

President signs first major improvement in Food and Drug laws since 1938, protecting families against untested and ineffective drugs.

October 11, 1962

President signs Trade Expansion Act granting unprecedented authority to end American protectionism and build free world economic unity.

October 22, 1962

President announces naval quarantine to halt Soviet missile buildup in Cuba--Khrushchev subsequently withdraws missiles under United States inspection.

November 20, 1962

President signs Executive Order to prevent racial discrimination in Federal housing.

January 14, 1963

President calls for massive tax reduction and tax reform, accurately predicting longest, strongest economic expansion in American peace-time history to that time.

March 22, 1963

President urges final action on Constitutional Amendment outlawing poll tax as a bar to voting--it became the 24th Amendment.

June 10, 1963

President, in speech at American University, calls on American people to reexamine their attitude toward Cold War.

June 11, 1963

President mobilizes Alabama National Guard to admit two negroes to University of Alabama as ordered by the court.

June 22, 1963

President proposes most sweeping Civil Rights legislation in history to give all Americans equal opportunity in education, employment, public accommodations, voting and access to Federal programs.

July 18, 1963

President presents latest in series of administrative and legislative programs to stabilize United States balance of payments and stem outflow of gold.

September 20, 1963

President, in address to the United Nations General Assembly, proposes additional cooperation with Soviet Union, including outer space exploration--United States and Soviet Union subsequently agree on outer space disarmament move.

September 24, 1963

President signs first major program assisting construction of higher education classrooms.

October 7, 1963

President signs Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, first disarmament agreement of the nuclear age.

October 9, 1963

President announces agreement with Soviet Union to open private negotiations for sale of American wheat.

October 24, 1963

President signs bill launching first major national drive against mental illness and mental retardation.

November 21, 1963

President asks economic advisers to prepare "War on Poverty" program for 1964.

 

[splat]

Quite Frankly , that Ain't much, if he wants to be considered one for the top 10 presidents in History. Lots of asking , not nearly enogh action.

Kennedy's Big problem ( assets ) was his public speaking which he was great at and could motivate the US People, However he had a Much tougher time motivating congress.

 

[ohio]

Quite Frankly , that Ain't much, if he wants to be considered one for the top 10 presidents in History. Lots of asking , not nearly enogh action.

Fair enough... if you're comparing absolutes and Kennedy's 3 years to 8 years of others, then yes it was a lot more asking than getting. However, if you're willing to be relative about it, I think what Kennedy did in 3 years was quite phenomenal (noting Bay of Pigs is a serious strike against him).

Again, I point to the Nuclear Test Ban, Civil Rights Act, and the Space Program and I don't see much in a post WW2 era that was more positive.

 

[sanjuro]

yes I do. I also Feel Kennedy should not be in the top 10. ( don't forget Bay of Pigs in your List )

I also question Ike, Truman , Wilson and T. Roosevlet. in the top 10. and the lack of Monroe , Polk and Madison. especially Madison!!

FDR is always interesting to look at some Historians say he is the Best others the worst.

I think it is odd that Kennedy beat out Jefferson.

T.R. has always been considered a top 5 president, top 4 if you consider Rushmore.

Ike and Truman maybe questionable top 10's compared to Monroe, Polk, and Madison. But a surface reading has their America running very smoothly, which has to count for something.

I thought about the bottom 6, and while it was an extremely difficult circumstance about slavery and succession, Pierce, Buchanan, and Fillmore failed to shine, and they doomed our country to fight in a Civil War.

 

[splat]

Madison Gets over looked Big time!

he had to deal with the Britsh attacking and defending the Then small weak country against a juggernaut in the war of 1812.