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Bush on Iraq...

zibbler

zibbler

Monkey
Jun 18, 2002
244
0
South Florida - Land of no hills.
Originally posted by Dog Welder


Zibbler...you say that the military is the ONLY way to keep things peaceful. Lets break it down ...if I'm a 6'4" 210 pound guy..if I resorted to violence as my ONLY way to keep things peaceful what kind of person would I be? well an A$$hole for one.

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I don't mean having a strong military so we can go around kicking ass for no reason. More so as a deterent from violence. I hate war and wish wars would never happen, but they do. Look at it this way. If a bank robber goes into a bank and there are several armed guards, he will likely leave and try to find a bank that has less guards. That's what I mean about having a strong military. Not so we can START a war, but so we can hopefully deter one. But terrorism on our own soil has changed everything. :(
 
D

dg806

Chimp
Apr 26, 2002
77
0
Charlotte, NC
Burly, I apoligize for some of the idiots in this world! I for one appreciate all you and many others do! Why some think like this is beyond me. I bet most people don't even realize how many special forces operations go on around the world to keep things settled that you will never hear about! They just go about their everyday life thinking everything is honky dory! Well it is beacause of the military! Their brains must be fried! And just for the record I do think we need to oust Saddam. It has been proven BEYOND A DOUBT that he has weapons he intends to use. If you don't believe that may you be the first one to get blown to hell! Burly you are in my prayers!!:D

P.S. Rant over!
 
BurlyShirley

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Originally posted by Dog Welder



Don't get me wrong, my cousin is in boot camp for the Marine Corps right now and my best friend is a Forward Observer in the First Battalion 14th Marines. But I think that one of the biggest falcy that military folks believe is that to join the military you automatically means you will give up your life. Yes you can put yourself in danger but the term "Pogue" is there for a reason. Hell my cousin's MOS is intelligence specialist...he's going to be a translator....the chances that he'll give up his life for his country is slim to none. I'm not trying to slam the military, far from it, I've the greatest respect for people in the military but face it my friend who's the FO, probably one of the most dangerous MOS's, even in today's heated atmosphere...all he does is sit on his ass. A lot of military folks say that they are serving the country but be honest how many service men and women actually do something for the betterment of the country aside from marching and scrubbing toilets. Wouldn't it be better for the country if you gave your time volunteering in a school or helping build houses for families in need? I respect your choice..but I can't help but feel that your energies be put to better use in other areas that would benefit the PEOPLE of the United States...rather than fight another war for oil. If you were curious I spent 2 years at a military school and was accepted to the Naval Academy back in 96...I joined the Peace Corps instead. And no I'm not a tree huggin hippie. If anything I said has insulted you, I'm sorry but I felt it needed to be said.


Zibbler...you say that the military is the ONLY way to keep things peaceful. Lets break it down ...if I'm a 6'4" 210 pound guy..if I resorted to violence as my ONLY way to keep things peaceful what kind of person would I be? well an A$$hole for one.

I'll just say this...if politicians can do their jobs half as well as my Marine buddy does his ...then there would BE no need for the military.

You say that they will ALWAYS be one country that wants to rule the world, Hitler being the example you used...from the evidence I'm sorry to say but that would be us. We essentially created the Taliban AND Saddam. Up until '98 we paid the salaries of every high ranking Taliban official, why? Russia and oil. Nearly all their terroist techniques, we taught them to fight against the Russians. The Caspian Sea has more oil in it than the entire Middle East. UniCal, a giant oil conglomerate wanted to build a pipeline through Afganistan and were slipping the Taliban millions of dollars for the contract. When they gave the contract to an Argentinian oil company guess who got pissed? What folks don't know is that there was already talk about military action in Afganistan in July '01 and a projected date for October that same year.

And Saddam....nearly EVERYTHING he has we gave to him. During the Iran-Iraq war we gave them plans for chemical and biological weapons. We gave him support during the 80's when he gassed entire villiages. I don't believe that we need to remove him from power. If he follows the UN resolutions and lets the weapons inspectors back in, then I don't see why we should commit our troops. Sure we complain about how bad Saddam is, and yes he is an evil man....but what of our "friends" General Musariff (sp?) the dictator of Pakistan. this is a guy who HAS nukes and has said that he wouldn't hesitate to use them on India, this is a guy who looks up to Napolean AND Hitler. But just because he is playing nice with us, Pakistan all of a sudden becomes a free and democratic nation. But Pakistan doesn't have access to billions of barrels of oil.

I could go on for a while but its midnight and talking politics drains me mentally and physically.


basically the jist of my rant. Violence begets violence... our two best friends are now are two worst enemies. We supported their violence for our gain. and now that violence comes back to find us.

Never did a war end that didn't start another.
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Im not going to get into the Bush thing again, but i am going to make a few points about the military here.
I am what most Marines would call a "pogue" I am a US Marine Combat Correspondent. A military journalist and public affairs specialist. While im not an infantry Marine, I have my place on the battlefield, as does everyone else...even translators. The risk of giving your life is always there no matter where you are working at the tim.
While it is true that there are Marines who spend alot of time not fighting wars and training, people always seem to lose the fact that the military in fact does do alot for America.
My office alone arranges hundreds of civic and community projects each year that dedicate military man hours to fixing up schools and community centers. We've even volunteered a full company of Marines to do trail maintenance here. Im on one of the smallest Marine bases, and i know first hand that nearly every other base operates in much the same fashion.
Im sure your 2 years at a military school taught you quite alot, but youve never lived it for real. You know what other people allow you to see. I see why people say "peace this and peace that" but its just not realistic at all. You need the military and the military needs you.
 
cliffster5

cliffster5

In dog years I'm dead
Aug 23, 2001
331
1
Salinas, CA
Excellent discussion everybody. Dog Welder you so hit it on the head with your observation about us being the 800 lb. gorilla in the room. On planet Earth, in a political/social/cultural/economic/total impact sense... we are it folks. We lead the world in everything from greenhouse gas emissions/fossil fuel use to overall consumerism to teenage pregnancy. Our statistical impact in countless areas completely dwarfs the footprint of any other country (and usually many countires combined on a single indice). If the business of America is business, we are the all-time champion business men. And our power in the world flows from that and gives our leaders the sense that they can go into any part of the world that is not fertile for American business, be it Allende's Chile in the 70's, Guatemala in the 20's and 30's (at the behest of the United Fruit Company), Cuba in the 60's, Iran in the 50's (when we imposed the Shah on them), and Nicaragua in the 80's, and basically f*ck with the internal politics and soveriengty (sp?) of these countries. The use of the American military and/or the CIA is often integral to these operations.

Bush has been disdainful of the UN up until last week's speech and yet, imo, it (the UN process) is the most rightgeous manner to going about getting rid of Sadam (who needs to go- no argument). A good number of military leaders are in agreement on this point. Bush fears the world court and has been a no-show both at the Sustainable Economy and Kyoto conferences/signings. His penchant for being independent of a multi-laterial body/process runs strong (as it does throughout much of political right wing America). Earlier, someone asked for some solutions in place of rhetoric. Well here's one proposal (and I go back to my first post on this). Address the Israeli/Palestinian debacle first and foremost. Sadam at this point is the number one mentor in the world of Palestinian terrorist groups. A far more liklier sceanario than a Iraqi originated mushroom cloud over Manhatten, would be a biological/chemical attack (with Iraqi origens) hand delievered (literally) upon Israel. In getting after some kind of peace between those two factions, Sadam's role in the area is reduced. More importantly, as part of moving the two sides toward peace, Bush must taken on Ariel Sharon imo, and address the kind of deplorable arrogance he has shown just recently in his assault upon Arafat's compound, and in a larger sense, Sharon's arrogant approach to supporting the Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. This is not to say that the Palestinians do not have a course of corrective action on their own agenda to follow. My point here, is that the Arab world is watching intently our treatment of Israel. Not calling Sharon to task for his part in the Palestinian crisis cuts our throat with these people. As soon as we become a more judicious player in that part of the world the sooner all these Arab countries will start supporting a multi-laterial approach to getting rid of Hussein despite the perceived genesis of the idea coming out of the Oval Office.
 
fourgivn1

fourgivn1

Monkey
May 8, 2002
439
0
Somewhere near 37 degrees, 19 minutes North, and 7
That was a great commentary, cliffster. I only have one problem with it - the assumption that the Arab world actually WANTS a true peace. Ever since Israel became a nation back in 1948 they've been attacked by (you guessed it) arab nations, I believe it is 6 times. (Well, actually 5 I think...one of those times, Israel struck preemptively because intelligence showed them that if they let their opponent strike first they would have probably lost their country.)

Am I saying there will never be a peace? I'm actually not saying that. What I AM saying is that I believe that peace (between Israel and the Arab nations) will NEVER be a TRUE peace. Everything I have ever seen of Arabs and how they REALLY feel about Israel shows that they hate the Israelis with every fiber of their being. Just the other day I read a newspaper (from the Palestinians, I believe - I could be wrong) telling the general public all about how Israelis use the blood of the Palestinians in their cooking and cleaning, and so on.
 
cliffster5

cliffster5

In dog years I'm dead
Aug 23, 2001
331
1
Salinas, CA
Fourgivn, you are completely right of course to bring up this point about the deep seated hatred that historically exists between the Israelis and Arabs. However, I think Israel's stock would go up immensely in the Arab world if they were to carry thru on a land for peace deal with the Palestinians (not that the record of Arab country's dealings with the Palestinians has been exemplary mind you). Part of reaching such an accord may have to wait for Arafat and Sharon to be out of the way. They are involved in a long-time death grip that I think may be hopeless to break. My sense is that both factions are simply exhausted by the constant state of war (since 1948). They have to be tired of burying their children. Will they ever embrace each other as family? Probably not. Can they learn to co-exist peacefully and respectfully? I pray that they will. Would I be surprised if in yours and my lifetime we don't see that arise? Absolutely not! :(
 
fourgivn1

fourgivn1

Monkey
May 8, 2002
439
0
Somewhere near 37 degrees, 19 minutes North, and 7
Oh I KNOW the stock would go up immensely. But for me, what it comes down to is two things. One, I must admit that part of why I believe a peace between the two parties would never be perfect, has to do with what I believe, and spiritual history. We all know where the two 'races' (or whatever you choose to call it) descended from, and I believe that part of why they will never get along is due to that.

But secondly, even not counting Biblical history and explanations, Arabs, to my knowledge, have pretty much hated the Jewish throughout history, and I do not know ANYONE who can forgive century after century of hatred like that. Maybe over time, yes, but I do not think it is possible. For instance, look at the latest rejection of the 7-day UN resolution suggestion put forth by Bush and those sympathetic to him. Saddam Hussein scoffed at it, calling it a suggestion thought up by 'the Zionist circles in the US and Britain.' What does a 7-day resolution have to do with Zionism?

I'm not really saying you're wrong.....I could be wrong, and I hope I am in the long run. I just think that there won't be a perfect peace for a LONG time, and probably not ever.
 
Toshi

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,262
7,705
i think that this is an appropriate time to revive this thread.

before we vote, consider the issue of iraq very carefully. read what cliffster5 wrote. how much closer are we to peace and stability two years later?
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Aug 25, 2003
42,146
13,340
Squirtin ketchup n' mustard on charred flesh
BurlyShirley said:
I am an active duty US Marine...and im willing to put my ass on the line so you can write crap just like this all day long.

Leave them alone and they'll leave us alone huh? What a great idea! You know, i hope you werent serious when you wrote that. We do alot of good that goes unnoticed, unlike the so damned uppity swiss. We provide alot of humanitarian aid to countries over there...and we should just quit to make Iraq happy? people should starve because some powermad dictator wants to hide nucs?
I really hope you were joking.
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LOL


Thanks for bumping this westy. Eesh :rofl:
 
Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,408
20,200
Sleazattle
I think I found a new hobby. This aged well

Iraq War Costs Less than Expected

Short conflict, less ammo kept war cost down By Laurence McQuillan, USA TODAY WASHINGTON A short conflict that used fewer missiles, sparked fewer oil field fires and created fewer refugees than anticipated produced a lower-than-expected financial cost for the major combat in Iraq. That...
ridemonkey.bikemag.com ridemonkey.bikemag.com
 
Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,408
20,200
Sleazattle
iF i CaN't UnDeRsTaND iT, It CaN't Be tRu!11!

A few questions for evolutionsist

Sorry, this may be a bit long...but try to SCIENTIFICALLY answer any of these questions and then answer this: Is it wise and fair to present the theory of evolution to students as fact? HAPPY HUNTING!! (ohio...i know you'll enjoy the research on this one :D)...
ridemonkey.bikemag.com ridemonkey.bikemag.com
 
DaveW

DaveW

Space Monkey
Jul 2, 2001
11,198
2,723
The bunker at parliament
Westy said:
iF i CaN't UnDeRsTaND iT, It CaN't Be tRu!11!

A few questions for evolutionsist

Sorry, this may be a bit long...but try to SCIENTIFICALLY answer any of these questions and then answer this: Is it wise and fair to present the theory of evolution to students as fact? HAPPY HUNTING!! (ohio...i know you'll enjoy the research on this one :D)...
ridemonkey.bikemag.com ridemonkey.bikemag.com
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Some times I :wub: MMike.

MMike said:
Creationism is just plain stupid.

(And I have no intention whatsoever of formulating some sort of intelligent argument. So all you religious zealots who had planned on bashing me for "posting such nonsense and not adding anything of value to this thread"......can just cram it. I am merely just stating a fact. So cram it.)
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kidwoo

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Aug 25, 2003
42,146
13,340
Squirtin ketchup n' mustard on charred flesh
Westy said:
iF i CaN't UnDeRsTaND iT, It CaN't Be tRu!11!

A few questions for evolutionsist

Sorry, this may be a bit long...but try to SCIENTIFICALLY answer any of these questions and then answer this: Is it wise and fair to present the theory of evolution to students as fact? HAPPY HUNTING!! (ohio...i know you'll enjoy the research on this one :D)...
ridemonkey.bikemag.com ridemonkey.bikemag.com
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that guy decides who lives and who dies in confrontational situations that he creates

literally

and gets paid for it

how nice
 
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