[Toshi]

http://homepage.mac.com/njenson/movies/lovedocs.html



this isn't really a matter of debate (altho the underlying issue of malpractice reform for docs is one that i support). it is hilarious tho

 

[chicodude]

you think it was a joke from the guy who writes his speeches?

"I bet you 10 bucks if you put that bit about obgyn's in there, he'll read it"

"nah, he's not that dumb........"

 

[jmvar]

Did he just say "too many OBYNs are not able to practice their love with women across the country".......? The tape looked kind of dubbed over, is it real?

 

[Lexx D]

Yeah all those obgyn's that can't put food on the table or have a roof over their heads. Man you gotta feel bad for those poor doctors

 

[Toshi]

Yeah all those obgyn's that can't put food on the table or have a roof over their heads. Man you gotta feel bad for those poor doctors

malpractice insurance is out of hand for doctors. if it wasn't so high then doctors wouldn't be pressured to take high paying (but also high pressure and with ridiculous call schedules) private practice jobs, and might stay in the lower paying academic world and help advance the state of the art.

 

[Silver]

malpractice insurance is out of hand for doctors. if it wasn't so high then doctors wouldn't be pressured to take high paying (but also high pressure and with ridiculous call schedules) private practice jobs, and might stay in the lower paying academic world and help advance the state of the art.

I keep hearing that, but I've never seen a MD get into a Kia at the end of the day...

Look up how many people doctors kill every year...there might be a reason insurance is high.

 

[Toshi]

I keep hearing that, but I've never seen a MD get into a Kia at the end of the day...

and why should they? it's not easy getting to the point of being a practicing physician (figure 4 yrs college, 4 yrs med school, 1 yr internship, 4 yrs residency for most specialties) and median debt upon graduating from med school was "$100,000 and $135,000 for public school and private school graduates, respectively" in 2003.

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2004/05/17/prsd0517.htm

 

[Westy]

Did he just say "too many OBYNs are not able to practice their love with women across the country".......? The tape looked kind of dubbed over, is it real?

That is what he said. And I always wondered why Barry White was being played over the loudspeaker when I dropped my Ex GF off at the doctors?

 

[Lexx D]

and why should they? it's not easy getting to the point of being a practicing physician (figure 4 yrs college, 4 yrs med school, 1 yr internship, 4 yrs residency for most specialties) and median debt upon graduating from med school was "$100,000 and $135,000 for public school and private school graduates, respectively" in 2003.

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2004/05/17/prsd0517.htm

Yeah and after making 150+ the first year out helps out just a bit. I don't think we have to worry about doctors needing food stamps anytime soon.

Two sides to this
It's a shame doctors are being put out of practice because of rich insurance companies. The problem is the lack of insurance regulations so they can charge what they want and the people need to pay it or go out of business(very general statement).

On the same topic doctors need huge insurance policies because of what they do. You need things like this to protect the patient and their family. Sadly some doctors have pulled some stupid, and fuked up shyt to people and they need to be held accountable. The only way to cover for doctor bob who had a few to many drinks at lunch is with a huge insurance policy.

Is there an answer? Yes, regulation of insurance companies.

 

[Toshi]

Yeah and after making 150+ the first year out helps out just a bit. I don't think we have to worry about doctors needing food stamps anytime soon.

this varies hugely across specialties. here's a bit of an old article:

http://www.hschange.org/CONTENT/544/

[ B ]etween 1995 and 1999, at a time when most wages and salaries in the United States were rising sharply, average physician net income from the practice of medicine, adjusted for inflation,1 dropped 5.0 percent (see Figure 1). The reduction of 6.4 percent in primary care physicians' average real income was particularly notable and greater than the 4.0 percent drop for specialists.

The decline in physicians' income stands in stark contrast to the trends experienced by workers in professional, specialty and technical occupations.2 Between 1995 and 1999, wages and salaries for these workers rose 3.5 percent after adjusting for inflation. These trends also represent a dramatic shift from 1991 to 1995, when physicians' income growth3 exceeded inflation, and income for other professional occupations lagged the cost of living.

one can still make a good living in medicine, yes. once again, let me restate that i'm a 1st year med student. but having the squeeze put on by insurance companies, lowball medicare payouts and caring for the indigent is still a real issue.

also true is that such pressures will lead many to choose practice over academia. http://www.physiciansnews.com/cover/201dv.html over time this will degrade our entire system.

 

[fluff]

one can still make a good living in medicine, yes. once again, let me restate that i'm a 1st year med student. but having the squeeze put on by insurance companies, lowball medicare payouts and caring for the indigent is still a real issue.

I would rather see a smaller debt, and lower earnings. How 'bout you?

 

[Toshi]

I would rather see a smaller debt, and lower earnings. How 'bout you?

sure, that would be nice, but for earnings to drop malpractice insurance premiums should also drop commensurately.

 

[fluff]

sure, that would be nice, but for earnings to drop malpractice insurance premiums should also drop commensurately.

Are you implying that Doctors charge highly only to cover their insurance premiums? That would mean no rich doctors, right?

Why not simply pass insurance cost onto the patient or their health insurance?

 

[Toshi]

many doctors are well off, but medicine is not the field to be if one wants to become rich. investment banking, consulting (with the usual jump to industry, then mba, then back to consulting) or running one's own business is the path to riches.

i haven't looked into bush's actual proposed legislation. i just support the capping of jury verdicts, both in malpractice and in general tort litigation.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/white_house/jan-june03/malpractice_01-16.html

 

[Slugman]

Are you implying that Doctors charge highly only to cover their insurance premiums? That would mean no rich doctors, right?

Most doctors are aligned (or try to be) with a corporation(s). They help develop an item (drug, implant, surgical procedure, instruments...etc) and earn money that way. I have worked with surgeons who tell me that their salary only covers their insurance premium, but their royalties have bought them homes.

Oh, and I have met only a handful of doctors who are not currently being sued. One guy was even being sued b/c he required all his patients to lose weight and stop smoking before he would operate on them. When the patient did not follow these instructions the doctor refused to do the surgery, and that is why he is getting sued!!!

Probably the only thing I do agree with Bush on is Tort reform. We need to stop awarding $100million dollars to fat stupid lazy people who took a pill thinking it would make them look like a pro athlete, but got high blood pressure instead.

 

[Ciaran]

Now I am just a lowly computer guy here at Kaiser Permanente. I work in one of our Medical Centers and get to work with everyone who has a PC, from the people that prepare the meals to the chief of service for the whole med center. In my time here I have learned many things but one of them is that Doctors work HARD! If you think that they are just a bunch of rich guys who prescribe a few pills and drive around in their Mercedes you are wrong. Very wrong. Not only is it EXTREMELY difficult to even get into Med School (Ask Toshi!), but they litterally give you more work that can be done every day (Not to mention the cost of Med School!). After doing nothing but studying every day for 4 years they have to TRY to get into a residency program. Here at KP, we only have a few residents and we only take you if you are in the top 2 % of your class. Residents can be at the hospital for 2, 3, and 4 days straight. (And they drive hondas, and fords) We have rooms with beds they can sleep in but they generally do not leave the hospital campus.

Normal seasoned docs don't have it much better. Our MD's get 15 - 45 minutes per patient (Depending on the speciality) and get 5 minutes between patients and it's like that all day long. Add to that departmental meetings, patients who are late, and administrative stuff and the docs have a very busy day. Also, doctors have to keep their certifications up by doing Continuing Education forever. Yup, after all that schooling you still have to study and learn more.

Malpractice insurance is so out of hand that I can't even broach the subject here without depressing the docs. And it's like that for the same reason it takes forever to get theough the courts and why auto ins is so expensive... frivilous lawsuits. Yes, docs make mistakes, they are human after all, and yes there are seriously incompetent docs, but they are not that common... here at least.

I have met a lot of docs. Not one of them has gotten into medicine just for money. Sure some do it because daddy pressured them or because it very prestigous, but if you have the brains to be a doc and you are only interisted in money then you would become a lawyer. Hard work but it's only 3 years schooling and the liability factor is much lower. (Not many people will sue a lawyer).

I have seen peoples lives saved. I have seen the faces of the loved ones when the doctor does his work well. I have talked to docs after they have lost a patient... They deserve the Mercedes. Though I would love to see one of them in a KIA

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

i think there is a shortage in docs in the US, its more of a market problem IMO. thus the high prices.
i understand all what they go thru, but its not very different in other places.

i think the shortage has to do with the malpractice risks, after all if doctors work 12hour shifts, its more likely they will mess up at some point. thus higher insuranse premiums.

and also, the almost unlimited liability on insurance. insurance is definately a market that needs regulation, or more offers to take down the price.

 

[ohio]

There's blame on all sides here. A handful of bad docs are driving up prices for everyone. A handful of bad lawyers are pursuing outrageous settlements for minor mistakes or non-mistakes, and insurance companies are gouging doctors because they think they can.

The truth is, most doctors work incredibly hard and a truly dedicated, most lawyers are seeking (or at least early in their careers were seeking) to protect the public. Insurance companies are the only party that is institutionally bad. Rates could go down dramatically if they simply became as sophisticated as auto insurance. Rates are pretty flat (and exhorbitant) across doctors right now, but something like 90% of settlement dollars come from repeat offender doctors who are paying same or similar rates to doctors with 20 years of clean record. That's idiocy.

What we need is MILD tort reform (though Bush will hit hard for major reform, if only to make Edwards look bad), along with increased competition among insurance providers (which doctor flight will help to create... but not fast enough).