[BurlyShirley]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N07289777.htm

By Matt Spetalnick
WASHINGTON, Jan 8 (Reuters) - Leaders of the new Democratic-controlled Congress are vowing to fight it. An elite panel on Iraq has shown little enthusiasm for it. And even some military commanders are deeply skeptical about it.
Still, President George W. Bush is expected to shrug off those concerns and unveil plans to send more troops to Iraq, setting the stage for the most intense debate on the war since the U.S.-led invasion almost four years ago.
Bush is to make a televised address to Americans on his new Iraq plan on Wednesday at 9 p.m. (0200 GMT).
By going ahead with a troop increase, Bush is again proclaiming himself the "decider" as he tries to reassert his relevance after coming out on the losing end of a congressional power shift, analysts say.
Though weakened by his Republican Party's defeat in November's elections, he seems to be staking out his turf for continuing to prosecute an increasingly unpopular war that is likely to define his presidential legacy.
"He's still commander-in-chief and he wants to do it his way," said Michael McFaul, a foreign policy expert at the Hoover Institution. "But it's too little, too late."
Advocates of boosting troop levels, a proposal White House officials call the "surge" option, argue that more forces are needed to secure Baghdad and help rescue the war effort.
But critics fault Bush for refusing to admit the invasion was a mistake, failing to commit enough forces in the first place and now opting to deepen U.S. involvement -- though only incrementally -- to try to avert all-out sectarian civil war.
Bush's challenge will be selling the plan, which could add 20,000 soldiers to the 132,000 already in Iraq, to a war-weary American public despite doubts inside and outside the administration that it will make much of a difference.
LITTLE SIGN OF BENDING
Bush shows little sign of bending to critics, apparently believing history will vindicate him for a war that has killed more than 3,000 U.S. soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqis.
He has already dismissed many of the main recommendations of the bipartisan Iraq Study Group, whose report last month called for a pullback of most combat forces by early 2008.
Instead, Bush seems to be doing what the panel urged against -- picking and choosing from its package of interlocking ideas.
Some commentators say his resistance may stem in part from resentment over the implicit condemnation by old Washington insiders like former Secretary of State James Baker, a Bush family loyalist who co-chaired the group.
It buried any mention of boosting troop numbers on page 73 of its report, and even then maintained that any increase should be short-term and carried out only if commanders backed the idea.
With generals raising misgivings about risks of higher U.S. casualties and overstretched forces, Bush has moved to replace them with military men more in step with his thinking.
Aside from a few neoconservative scholars, the leading voices pushing for more troops have been Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona and independent Sen. Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut. Like Bush, both see Baghdad as the linchpin for stabilizing Iraq.
The administration wants to keep the troop influx limited, in part to avoid the appearance of a last-ditch bid to pacify the capital, where there is no guarantee of success.
Should the effort fail, analysts believe a main culprit will be a lack of political will on the part of Shi'ite Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki for achieving national reconciliation.
Even then, few experts think Bush would use that as political cover for starting a phased troop withdrawal that polls show the American public overwhelmingly favors.
Most expect him instead to dig in his heels against congressional Democrats' attempts to force him to set an exit strategy, mindful that they are unlikely to resort to cutting off funding to the troops.
"This is a president who doesn't change his mind easily, and he's decided to tough it out in Iraq to the bitter end, even if it makes no sense," said Joseph Cirincione of the Center for American Progress, a liberal Washington think tank.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

"This is a president who doesn't change his mind easily, and he's decided to tough it out in Iraq to the bitter end, even if it makes no sense,"

Why is Custer's Last Stand coming to mind.....

 

[ohio]

Why is Custer's Last Stand coming to mind.....

You ever put your hand on the stove to see if it's hot, and it is, so you keep it there?

 

[MMike]

What do you suppose that commission/study group cost? Money well-spent apparently....

 

[rapp]

What do you suppose that commission/study group cost? Money well-spent apparently....

I'm sure they'll put a study group out there to find that out too.

 

[LordOpie]

Come on, y'all know the only solution is withdrawl or more troops. The decision is better than the current situation.

 

[N8 v2.0]

some say more troops are needed to keep the areas that are secured secure.. right now they clear and area and then leave... and the terrorists reoccupy.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Come on, y'all know the only solution is withdrawl or more troops. The decision is better than the current situation.

Im still baffled by the "more troops" theory. It's not as if killing all the bad guys is even a realistic possibility. At best they will keep quiet a few months, wait for withdrawel time and begin the terror anew. The more likely scenario though, is that more US troops will die, more iraqi civilians will die and more "insurgents" will be killed/created. More death = not good.
I suppose it helps the Iraqi police get a little better situated, but i have ever confidence, given their complete ineptitude thus far, that without US support they will fail miserably either sooner or later.
Count me in for "bring them home"

 

[Silver]

I suppose it helps the Iraqi police get a little better situated, but i have ever confidence, given their complete ineptitude thus far, that without US support they will fail miserably either sooner or later.

Well, considering that their executioners are apparently a bunch of sectarian thugs, I'm going to hazard a guess that maybe that tendency extends down the line of authority in the Iraqi police a little bit...

 

[MMike]

Well the US has to do something. They broke it, they need to do something to help "fix" it (for lack of a better word)....of course getting the hell outta Dodge might be the best thing they can for everyone....

Maybe the Baby Huey-esque floundering about is not actually all that helpful afterall. "Duuuuhhhhh....me help!! me help!!" **SMASH SMASH SMASH**

 

[LordOpie]

I...given their complete ineptitude thus far, that without US support they will fail miserably either sooner or later.

yup.

And since the plan from the beginning was a permanent US presence, then there's no point of withdrawing or doing a half job.

 

[BurlyShirley]

yup.

And since the plan from the beginning was a permanent US presence, then there's no point of withdrawing or doing a half job.

I just feel bad that becuase of one stupid dumbass decision by one stupid dumbass, American boys will be dieing there for the next 20 years in that scenario. F*ck em. Plead to the UN for help, if that dont work, sorry, got to look out for #1.

 

[LordOpie]

The arguement for invasion was that less kids will die over the years because we'll have a strong presence in the Middle East.

 

[BurlyShirley]

The arguement for invasion was that less kids will die over the years because we'll have a strong presence in the Middle East.

The admin has publicly said that there are no long term plans for US bases in Iraq already.

 

[LordOpie]

The admin has publicly said that there are no long term plans for US bases in Iraq already.

And you believe them?

Not to mention PNAC's reports and position in 1997.

We're there for at least a century.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Im just saying its not a good reason to stay. Its why I want to get out.

 

[LordOpie]

forget for a moment the number of kids already killed by the poorly executed invasion...

Do you think a strong US presence in the Middle East over the next 20, 40+ years will help or hurt?

Seems like leaving the US military in Japan worked out well. Not that we could know what would've happened had we left after a couple of years.

 

[Westy]

forget for a moment the number of kids already killed by the poorly executed invasion...

Do you think a strong US presence in the Middle East over the next 20, 40+ years will help or hurt?

Seems like leaving the US military in Japan worked out well. Not that we could know what would've happened had we left after a couple of years.

Japan is a tottaly different story. They are culturally obedient not to mention we kind of broke them down with the nukes and fire bombings. Nothing like taking out a few hundred thousand civilians to get the rest to step in line.

 

[Silver]

Japan is a tottaly different story. They are culturally obedient not to mention we kind of broke them down with the nukes and fire bombings. Nothing like taking out a few hundred thousand civilians to get the rest to step in line.

They also didn't have a raging sectarian war going on in 1946...that helped a little.

 

[Westy]

They also didn't have a raging sectarian war going on in 1946...that helped a little.

Yeah, but Buddhists and Shintos would look at each other kind of funny.

 

[JohnE]

Wife spends too much money shopping, so give her more money to stop her. Even though the family and all your relations tell you that you are an idiot for doing it...
He should have listened to Powell 4 years ago. Or read "From Beirut to Jerusalem." Or stayed in rehab. Phuquer.

 

[Westy]

Wife spends too much money shopping, so give her more money to stop her. Even though the family and all your relations tell you that you are an idiot for doing it...
He should have listened to Powell 4 years ago. Or read "From Beirut to Jerusalem." Or stayed in rehab. Phuquer.

Or tried something different 3 years ago.

 

[JohnE]

forget for a moment the number of kids already killed by the poorly executed invasion...

Invasion was actually very well executed. The war itself was poorly conceived. (I know its nit-picky, just had to throw it in...)
Militarily things have been good, in all reality. Its the aftermath and the lack of an exit strategy that is the biggest issue.

 

[RenegadeRick]

...Nothing like taking out a few hundred thousand civilians to get the rest to step in line.

Why didn't that work in Iraq?

 

[Changleen]

The admin has publicly said that there are no long term plans for US bases in Iraq already.

Have you seen the 'US Embassy' in Baghdad? It's a frickin' city!

 

[ohio]

Why didn't that work in Iraq?

It's that whole one bite at a time thing. No one takes notice unless you can hit quadruple digits in a single event.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

The world's supply of glass is running short. I'm sure that the desert peoples' would be happy to contribute their part in this dire emergency...

 

[jimmydean]

Tony Snow said Monday that Bush "understands there is a lot of public anxiety" about the war. On the other hand, he said that Americans "don't want another Sept. 11" type of terrorist attack and that it is wiser to confront terrorists overseas in Iraq...

I thought the administration had said there were no ties between 9/11 and Iraq? Man, this story gets better and better.

I guess if tossing money at the problem hasn't solved it by now, then more troops will be SURE to take care of it

 

[-BB-]

I just feel bad that becuase of one stupid dumbass decision by one stupid dumbass, American boys will be dieing there for the next 20 years in that scenario. F*ck em. Plead to the UN for help, if that dont work, sorry, got to look out for #1.

OMG!!
I stop visiting the monkey for a few months (blocked at work) and when I return, it isn't to RM, but to some Bizarro RM where Burly is calling George Bush a stupid dumbazz.

Is this all a dream or something? Am I going to wake up at some point?

 

[Silver]

OMG!!
I stop visiting the monkey for a few months (blocked at work) and when I return, it isn't to RM, but to some Bizarro RM where Burly is calling George Bush a stupid dumbazz.

Is this all a dream or something? Am I going to wake up at some point?

He's rapidly turning into a hippie. He's been furiously downloading the Dead and Phish...

 

[Westy]

It's that whole one bite at a time thing. No one takes notice unless you can hit quadruple digits in a single event.

It is also a lot harder to start a firestorm in cities made of dirt.

 

[N8 v2.0]

how many us troops are in baghdad specifically to work security>

 

[RenegadeRick]

how many us troops are in baghdad specifically to work security>

ummmm... ALL of them?

they ain't lookin fer WMD. gave that up loooong ago.

lthumbsdown:

 

[skinny mike]

this news is just awesome to hear less than 2 weeks before i turn 18. i keep wondering where they expect the troops that they need will come from. because i sure as hell am not enlisting.

 

[N8 v2.0]

ummmm... ALL of them?

they ain't lookin fer WMD. gave that up loooong ago.

lthumbsdown:

i believe the Pentagon says there are 12-15k troops working security in baghdad now. the new deployments will double that number.

The city has about 6 million people in it: http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gpro&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-105&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=&geo=444010444

 

[blue]

this news is just awesome to hear less than 2 weeks before i turn 18. i keep wondering where they expect the troops that they need will come from. because i sure as hell am not enlisting.

When they kick out your front door, how you gonna come, with your hands on your head or on the trigger of your gun...

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Im just saying its not a good reason to stay. Its why I want to get out.

you took the biggest blow and sucked up the downpayment.
you might as well get something out of your sunk cost, have a marginally less expensive stay and get your oil now.

 

[Silver]

you might as well get something out of your sunk cost

Do you realize that making this statement means that you have totally misunderstood the concept of a "sunk cost"?

 

[LordOpie]

Do you realize that making this statement means that you have totally misunderstood the concept of a "sunk cost"?

"sunk cost"?

What's that?

Hey, I know, let's ask n8!!

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Do you realize that making this statement means that you have totally misunderstood the concept of a "sunk cost"?

yeah i know.
its sunk because its gone and its irrelevant for the future... just playing with words, in the sense that the biggest expense for oil and any strategic forward point has been already made.
down payment would be the most appropiate term tough.