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Bush's Bad Science

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Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Bad Science

And for the hard of clicking:

Scientists horrified by Bush's Bad Science
By Ashlee Vance in Chicago
Published Monday 12th July 2004 17:21 GMT
What started as a group of 62 scientists fighting what they saw as Bad Science being practiced by the Bush administration has now bloated to a body with more than 4,000 whitecoats calling for change.

The Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), in a new report, has again expressed its feeling of "embarrassment and disgust" over the way the Bush administration uses - or misuses - science when making policy decisions. The scientists have found that the administration often ignores the recommendations of advisory panels and "suppresses, distorts and manipulates" scientific work. In particular, the group is concerned about Bad Science affecting environment, emergency contraception and endangered species policies .

UCS issued a previous complaint in February with 62 signatures but has amassed over 4,000 signatures for its latest report released this month. The signers include 48 Nobel laureates, 62 National Medal of Science recipients and 127 members of the National Academy of Sciences.

"The actions by the Bush administration threaten to undermine the morale and compromise the integrity of scientists working for and advising America’s world-class governmental research institutions and agencies," UCS said. "Not only does the public expect and deserve government to provide it with accurate information, the government has a responsibility to ensure that policy decisions are not based on intentionally or knowingly flawed science. To do so carries serious implications for the health, safety, and environment of all Americans."

To its credit, UCS has laid out specific instances where it believe the Bush administration ignored science - the first being an environmental impact statement (EIS) on mountaintop removal mining in Appalachia. As it turns out, the removal of mountain ridges to reveal coal punishes the environment near the mines.

"Scientists working for various federal agencies have documented a wide range of enormously destructive environmental impacts from this mining technique," the UCS said. "More than 7 percent of Appalachian forests have been cut down and more than 1,200 miles of streams across the region have been buried or polluted between 1985 and 2001.

"According to the federal government’s scientific analysis, mountaintop removal mining, if it continues unabated, will cause a projected loss of more than 1.4 million acres by the end of the next decade - an area the size of Delaware - with a concomitant, severe impact on fish, wildlife, and bird species, not to mention a devastating effect on many neighboring communities."

The EIS presented by scientists had over 5,000 pages detailing the destructive nature of this type of mining. The Bush administration, however, "softened" the report by ordering words such as "significant" and "severe" to be excised from the documents and by massaging economic data. Scientists were politely told that the EIS "was going to be taken in a different direction."

A number of scientists complained that no alternative to mountaintop removal mining was even considered when that is supposed to be part of any EIS.

UCS is also upset by an FDA (Food and Drug Administration) official's decision to ban "Plan B" - a drug for preventing pregnancy up to 72 hours after sex - from being prescribed.

"In the case, Steven Galson, acting director of the FDA’s Center for Drug Evaluation and Research, acknowledged to reporters recently that he overturned the recommendations of his own staff and two FDA advisory panels in declaring the drug “not approvable” for nonprescription status," said UCS. "A joint meeting of two independent FDA scientific advisory committees voted 23 to 4 in December 2003 to recommend the emergency contraceptive as an over-the-counter drug. The panel also voted unanimously that the drug could be safely sold over the counter."

Overwhelming testimony by doctors pointed to the drug being safe and effective at preventing unwanted pregnancies.

"Nonetheless, Dr. Galson broke with agency protocol by overruling FDA staff scientists who had concluded that this drug met FDA criteria for nonprescription status and overwhelmingly recommended the switch," UCS said. "In overruling his staff and the advisory committee, Galson offered no substantial new evidence, and took the unusual step of writing the official response to the drug company himself."

At least you can't accuse Bush of bowing to the pharmaceutical industry here.

On the subject of endangered species, UCS is particularly concerned with the Bush administration's salmon policy. A number of scientists have argued that wild fish and hatchery fish should be kept separate when counting the population of a particular species. This seems to make sense - best to gauge the success of a population by looking at it in the wild rather than in a petri dish. Ah, but no fast.

"The development of a new Bush administration policy on hatchery fish was overseen by Mark Rutzick, who early in 2003 was appointed by President Bush as special adviser to the NOAA General Counsel," UCS said. "Previously, Rutzick served as a lawyer for the timber industry and was a strong opponent of fish and wildlife protections that logging companies viewed as overly restrictive. Rutzick first proposed the strategy of including hatchery fish in population counts for endangered salmon while he worked on behalf of timber interests."

After taking some criticism over Rutzick, the Bush administration did make some changes to its proposed hatchery policy but still a number of population counts combine wild and hatchery fish for certain species.

The UCS report points out several other instances where Bush's endangered species policies resemble those of a nineteenth-century fur trader. The report also documents a number of scientists complaining that they were asked who they had voted for in the Presidential elections when being interviewed for various scientific panels.

In total, UCS called for the Bush administration to have a much more open, investigative approach to scientific matters. Something along the the lines of actually considering the evidence presented. ®
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
...yeah! Bush sucks... at least he's getting rid of some Clinton rubbish though...


White House Aims to Abolish Logging Rule
AP | 12 Jul | BOB FICK


BOISE, Idaho (AP) - The Bush administration Monday proposed lifting a national rule that closed remote areas of national forests to logging, instead saying states should decide whether to keep a ban on road-building in those areas. Environmentalists immediately criticized the change as the biggest timber industry giveaway in history.

Under the proposal, governors would have to petition the federal government to block road-building in remote areas of national forests. Allowing roads to be built would open the areas to logging.

The rule replaces one adopted by the Clinton administration and still under challenge in federal court. It covers about 58 million of the 191 million acres of national forest nationwide.

The Bush administration heralded the plan as an end to the legal uncertainty overshadowing tens of millions of acres of America's backcountry.

"Our actions today advance the Bush administration's commitment to cooperative conserving roadless areas," Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman said in announcing the plan in the Idaho Capitol Rotunda.

Philip Clapp, president of the National Environmental Trust, called the administration proposal the biggest giveaway to the timber industry in history, arguing that many western states would likely press for development to help struggling rural economies.

"The idea that many governors would want to jump head first into the political snake pit of managing the national forests in their states is laughable," he said. "Besides, the timber industry has invested heavily for years in the campaigns of governors with the largest national and state forests, giving almost equally to Republicans and Democrats."

Under the proposal, the 58.5 million acres designated as roadless among the 191 million acres of national forest will be protected from development for another 18 months.

In 2006, each governor may submit a proposal either to continue protecting the roadless land or allow it opened to multiple use. The federal government would consider each state petition and then issue a regulation determining the extent of future roadless protection.

Idaho has the most land in the lower 48 states affected by the roadless designation - 9.3 million acres - and was one of the first states to challenge the Clinton administration rule.

A major point of contention in Idaho could be 200,000 acres in the Clearwater River area of north-central Idaho. The area is untrammeled, and conservationists want it preserved. But the Forest Service has proposed some timber sales in the area, and land managers believe logging would reduce the danger of wildfire and protect the basin's famed elk herd.

Veneman and Idaho Gov. Dirk Kempthorne, a Republican, both argued that the proposal ends the legal uncertainty over the old rule and leaves forest management decisions with people most aware of local needs.

But New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, a Democrat and Clinton administration energy secretary, accused the Forest Service of "walking away from environmental protection."

Richardson said he would petition for protection of all 1.1 million roadless acres in his state and urge other governors to do the same, declaring that "they should not open these areas, period."

Undersecretary of Agriculture Mark Rey said that if a state does not offer its own proposal on roadless land, the land would become part of the traditional planning process for each national forest. That process has called for development on 24 million of the 58 million acres that Clinton moved to protect.

Federal judges have twice struck down the Clinton rule, most recently in a Wyoming case decided in July 2003. That case, which environmentalists have appealed, is one of several pending legal challenges which have complicated efforts to issue a new plan.

The new plan will be published in the Federal Register this week, with a 60-day comment period extending into September.
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
5,407
0
New England
N8 said:
...yeah! Bush sucks... at least he's getting rid of some Clinton rubbish though...
Finally, I can't tll you how upset I am about all those trees cluttering up our forests.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Here is another one from over a year ago (it was also covered in the American media also). Good balanced view of the critics, but they still have valid points. We could be doing a lot better, but we are driving blind:

BBC
Tuesday, 11 February, 2003, 12:49 GMT
Economists attack Bush's 'madness'

Joseph Stiglitz: Bush package simply won't work

More than 400 economists, led by 10 Nobel prize winners, have criticised President George W Bush's economic policy in the US press.

In a full-page advertisement in the New York Times newspaper, the economists said that proposed tax cuts would not help the economy in the short term.

When you are designing a tax programme, you look for the biggest bang for the buck


They also said the planned cuts would benefit rich people the most.

Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz told the BBC's World Business Report that Mr Bush's plans were "fiscal madness, fiscal irresponsibility".

President George W Bush could spend less than a sixth of what he is planning to on stimulating the economy, Mr Stiglitz said.

"When you are designing a tax programme, you look for the biggest bang for the buck," he said.

"So rather than spending $600bn on the tax proposal that Bush has, the kind of proposals I'm talking about would cost under $100bn and deliver enormous amounts, directly and in the short run, without delivering huge long-run deficits."

Trouble

Mr Stiglitz is a well-known thorn in the side of more conservative economists.

Formerly a senior figure in both the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, he stepped down in order to criticise both agencies, and the US too, for their policies towards the developing world.

He is also a staunch critic of the current White House - and a signatory of Tuesday's advert in the New York Times.

The campaign is backed by the Economic Policy Institute, a liberal Washington DC think tank.

Retrograde step

Mr Stiglitz was at pains to stress that far from improving the situation, the package Mr Bush is pushing would make things worse by stocking up massive deficits for the future.

The tax cuts would mostly benefit taxpayers who are already wealthy, and are therefore the most unlikely immediately to spend their windfall - which, he said, is what the economy needs.

More than half Mr Bush's planned spending is devoted to removing tax on share dividends, but most taxpayers are already exempt through holdings in pension funds and similar vehicles, he said.

"You should get money out to people who will spend it and spend it quickly," he said.

"So that means getting money to the unemployed, who have had their consumption cut back, so that would make a big difference."

A proper stimulus package would also give money to the individual states, almost all of whom are experiencing a revenue crunch as the tax take falls and so - under balanced budget rules - must slash spending.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Tenchiro said:
Finally, I can't tll you how upset I am about all those trees cluttering up our forests.
Clintons roadless wilderness initiative was a big mistake.....

I am unclear to what "developing" is on nation forrest land. I am unaware that housing etc can be built on forrest land. Campgrounds and ranger stations etc but housing?....citys? :confused:

Logging of the forrests is a good thing when done right....protect the old growth but to the large sects that have been logged in teh past....log it again. Manage it. Forest fires are only going to get worst the more you close off and ignore the wilderness.

The fact that they close the land off to recreation is bogus too.

It was a fine peice of legislating thru Clinton via the Sierra Club and other green groups.....just good intentions with poor execution.

Rhino
 

Lexx D

Dirty Dozen
Mar 8, 2004
1,480
0
NY
RhinofromWA said:
good intentions with poor execution.

Rhino
:eek: I may have misunderstood this, but I think you said something nice about someone other than GW.........nahh, couldn't be.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
uhh, even with Clinton's legislation, couldn't states cut down trees as needed for fire protection?

They do logging and prescribed burns throughout Colorado many times a year every year.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
RhinofromWA said:
Logging of the forrests is a good thing when done right....protect the old growth but to the large sects that have been logged in teh past....log it again. Manage it. Forest fires are only going to get worst the more you close off and ignore the wilderness.
There is your problem - when done RIGHT. You shouldn't give logging companies free reign to come in on roads they build and cut down healthy forests. The proper way to do it is to selectively harvest (diseased trees, average samples, replanted areas). Also replanting a monoculture does not make a healthy forest, but yet this is what almost all logging companies do...

No one on either side is so stupid as to suggest to completely leave land alone except for psycho fringe groups. The logical course of action is down the middle...
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
LordOpie said:
uhh, even with Clinton's legislation, couldn't states cut down trees as needed for fire protection?

They do logging and prescribed burns throughout Colorado many times a year every year.
Yeah but Rhino doesn't want to acknowledge that or didn't bother to look past some biased article he read like most lazy people/sheep...
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
You gotta hand it to N8 on this one; he turned a thread about Bush's scientific mistruths into a thread about Clinton.

Clearly everything is Clinton's fault...
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,658
65
behind the viewfinder
bush is an international disaster.

btw, i came in late to work today so i could do a ride @ the local mountain. the logging tore the hell out of the trails and left branches and crap all over the place.

i suppose N8 likes to ride in such conditions.
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
5,407
0
New England
RhinofromWA said:
Clintons roadless wilderness initiative was a big mistake.....

I am unclear to what "developing" is on nation forrest land. I am unaware that housing etc can be built on forrest land. Campgrounds and ranger stations etc but housing?....citys? :confused:

Logging of the forrests is a good thing when done right....protect the old growth but to the large sects that have been logged in teh past....log it again. Manage it. Forest fires are only going to get worst the more you close off and ignore the wilderness.

The fact that they close the land off to recreation is bogus too.

It was a fine peice of legislating thru Clinton via the Sierra Club and other green groups.....just good intentions with poor execution.

Rhino

Not that I trust Bush to be any more moderate than Clinton was in his original bill, but putting the decision in the hands of the states probably won't be a bad thing.

Why is it that the states can decide this but not who can marry?
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
DRB said:
http://www.detnews.com/2004/politics/0406/26/politics-195529.htm

More mettling in Science.
“No one knows better than HHS who the experts are and who can provide the most up-to-date and expert advice,” Jewell said. “The World Health Organization does not know the best people to talk to, but HHS knows. If anyone thinks politics will interfere with Secretary Thompson’s commitment to improve health in every corner of the world, they are sadly mistaken.”
well then, the HHS should just submit a list of people they think are qualified to the WHO instead of the other way around.

Keep spinning it Jewell, maybe you land on something that sounds less stupid?
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Tenchiro said:
Why is it that the states can decide this but not who can marry?

When conservatives argue for states' rights, it doesn't always mean the same thing. For example:

It means that the states get to accept the lobbyist paycheck for cutting down the forests.

It doesn't mean that the states can decide that ill people can use marijuana as medicine. (God doesn't like dope smokers, remember. Also, terrorism. Remember 9/11!)

It doesn't mean that the states can decide who gets married (God doesn't like it, after all.)

It doesn't mean that the states can decide that assisted suicide is legal either (God made them sick for a reason, why should we let them take the easy way out.)


Basically, if it supports a GOP position, then it is states' rights full steam. If not, who cares.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Lexx D said:
:eek: I may have misunderstood this, but I think you said something nice about someone other than GW.........nahh, couldn't be.
Hey I am not as extreme as you think. ;) but then stupid is as stupid does (lol that was just so I didn't dissapoint you)

I may be more moderate than you think....but the roadless initiative was a cluster F wrapped in a feel good package.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
LordOpie said:
uhh, even with Clinton's legislation, couldn't states cut down trees as needed for fire protection?

They do logging and prescribed burns throughout Colorado many times a year every year.
not if you can't enter said forests to remove the fallen trees and do controlled burns....

Roadless means shut down teh old roads and not build new ones. Close it off and let nature figure it out.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
syadasti said:
Yeah but Rhino doesn't want to acknowledge that or didn't bother to look past some biased article he read like most lazy people/sheep...
Uh burning on land not affect4d by the roadless act would still go on. :rolleyes:

I spent many hours in meetings with FS and government officials when this stuff hit the fan when Clinton was on his way out.

But far be it from me to try and turn your beer goggled views.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,398
22,480
Sleazattle
RhinofromWA said:
Close it off and let nature figure it out.
Sounds like a good plan. The recent large fires have been attributed to fire fighting.

Logging can not be a fire prevention tool and be used to keep the forests healthy and natural. To do so only deadfall and selected trees would have to be removed over a ginormous area, close to impossible and unprofitable. Leave them alone and let them burn.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
syadasti said:
There is your problem - when done RIGHT. You shouldn't give logging companies free reign to come in on roads they build and cut down healthy forests. The proper way to do it is to selectively harvest (diseased trees, average samples, replanted areas). Also replanting a monoculture does not make a healthy forest, but yet this is what almost all logging companies do...

No one on either side is so stupid as to suggest to completely leave land alone except for psycho fringe groups. The logical course of action is down the middle...
Uhhh the forest is managed by the forest service alond with DNR etc, and they have mega hoops to jump through before they do anything.

They do it as well as any group would. Good citizens and politicians make sure of that. Private harvesting and private land clear cuts don't have as many requirements.

As stuarts (sp?) of the forest they are to manage the land and not fence it off.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Westy said:
Sounds like a good plan. The recent large fires have been attributed to fire fighting.

Logging can not be a fire prevention tool and be used to keep the forests healthy and natural. To do so only deadfall and selected trees would have to be removed over a ginormous area, close to impossible and unprofitable. Leave them alone and let them burn.
The controlled burns to keep the underbrush down helps

Logging is not the ultimate destruction of earth :rolleyes: Much of the PNW has been logged in the past and is vital again. The key is managing it and not tearing through it like the settlers and pre-enviro friendly nation did.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Westy said:
Sounds like a good plan. The recent large fires have been attributed to fire fighting.
:think:

Uhhhh maybe where you are at.

In the last couple weeks in WA
1- caused by lightning strike.
1- caused by hawk flying with chicken striking electical wires (I sh!t you not, I laughed)
Last year was camp fire, or arsen

Where did fire fighting cuase the large fires? CA?

Seems like the fuel was there to burn....and still is. there is another fire there as we speak correct?

Blaming fire fighters for the big fires (especially 100%) is bogus. Mistake could have been made, but that is like having the harbor patrol blamed for not holding back a tidal wave. The forest fire was to big for fire fighters alone to supress her.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,398
22,480
Sleazattle
RhinofromWA said:
Much of the PNW has been logged in the past and is vital again.
Just because there are a bunch trees growing somewhere does not mean it is a healthy forest. Land logged 100 years ago may have some nice big trees but will more than likely lack diversity of species of both plants and animals, areas where erosion took place can take several hundreds of years to redevelop good topsoil.

IMO logging should be treated like farming, on private land.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
RhinofromWA said:
:think:

Uhhhh maybe where you are at.

In the last couple weeks in WA
1- caused by lightning strike.
1- caused by hawk flying with chicken striking electical wires (I sh!t you not, I laughed)
Last year was camp fire, or arsen

Where did fire fighting cuase the large fires? CA?

Seems like the fuel was there to burn....and still is. there is another fire there as we speak correct?

Blaming fire fighters for the big fires (especially 100%) is bogus. Mistake could have been made, but that is like having the harbor patrol blamed for not holding back a tidal wave. The forest fire was to big for fire fighters alone to supress her.
The one in Colorado last year comes to mind. Out of work firefighter lit up the forest to get some work, didn't she?

The big fire in California last year was caused by an asshole who got stranded in the desolate and horrible San Diego County, and then lit off a flare in the middle of a tinderbox.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Westy said:
Just because there are a bunch trees growing somewhere does not mean it is a healthy forest. Land logged 100 years ago may have some nice big trees but will more than likely lack diversity of species of both plants and animals, areas where erosion took place can take several hundreds of years to redevelop good topsoil.

IMO logging should be treated like farming, on private land.
Well the spotted owls would dissagree. I spend plenty of time and the forrest are pretty darn healthly.

Actually I was at the Caverns in Northern CA/Southern OR (lewis and CLarke?) and the rangers said the let the forest figure it out plan is killing it. Trees are dieing left and right. In part by the brush and undergrowth choking the area. Much logging is on private land and just maybe on the trails everyone complains about being logged.

I understand the eco-issue all the earth first heads spew about but nature is a little more resiliant than you give it credit for....atleast around here. Deer don't die of a heart attack when a motorcycle goes by....actually once they know they are not a threat they could couldn't care less. Mice come back to the rotting forest floor in the slag left by logging and that brings the birds of prey that hang out in the patches left behind when logging forests. Erosion is controlled and isn't nearly as much of an issue than say 50-100 years ago.

They don't clear cut for 50miles in ever direction anymore. They spot log as to leave refuge for the woodland creatures and allow the chang not to decimate them.

I do beleive this save the forest crap is taken to the extreme for shock value and to get your votes.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Silver said:
The one in Colorado last year comes to mind. Out of work firefighter lit up the forest to get some work, didn't she?
That wouldn't be blamable on fire fighting now would it?

The big fire in California last year was caused by an asshole who got stranded in the desolate and horrible San Diego County, and then lit off a flare in the middle of a tinderbox.
The whole damn thing was a flare? By a fire fighter or hiker/camper/etc? :confused:

The fuel was there....it was lit (it happens)....conditions were right for mayhem.

What control do anyone of us have over these things? Weather? no. Dorks with flares or no paycheck? not really. Fuel to feed the fires? Yes.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,398
22,480
Sleazattle
RhinofromWA said:
:think:

Uhhhh maybe where you are at.

In the last couple weeks in WA
1- caused by lightning strike.
1- caused by hawk flying with chicken striking electical wires (I sh!t you not, I laughed)
Last year was camp fire, or arsen

Where did fire fighting cuase the large fires? CA?

Seems like the fuel was there to burn....and still is. there is another fire there as we speak correct?

Blaming fire fighters for the big fires (especially 100%) is bogus. Mistake could have been made, but that is like having the harbor patrol blamed for not holding back a tidal wave. The forest fire was to big for fire fighters alone to supress her.

I was not refering to the cause of the fires but attributing the size of them to firefighting.

Example: A fire 50 years ago that would have burned 100,000 acres was fought and limited to 10,000 acres. That 90,000 acres of forest builds up an additional 50 years of fuel. Next time a fire rolls through the higher fuel level burn a larger, hotter, faster fire. The theory is a truly natural forest will burn on occasion, this will thin the forest but not destroy it, certain trees will survive. A forest that has been sheltered from fire will eventually burn hotter killing everything. The damn trees have been around for a very long time, and historically there have been no signs of truly massive fires like we are starting to see.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
I can understand everyone freakign out because someone has made an opinoin outside the AP or political lines. I walk ride camp in the forest crap that has been faught in WA for over the last couple decades. I have grown up building trail in areas logged before I was born and the only way you would know is a simple grade in the trees or a random logging cable that your chain saw finds that looks today like a vine maple. (that sucked)

Rhino
 

golgiaparatus

Out of my element
Aug 30, 2002
7,340
41
Deep in the Jungles of Oklahoma
RhinofromWA said:
I understand the eco-issue all the earth first heads spew about but nature is a little more resiliant than you give it credit for.
This does not stop the fact that nature was meant to manage itself... it wasnt meant to be managed by man, nature has a lot more experience than we do eh.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,398
22,480
Sleazattle
RhinofromWA said:
I can understand everyone freakign out because someone has made an opinoin outside the AP or political lines. I walk ride camp in the forest crap that has been faught in WA for over the last couple decades. I have grown up building trail in areas logged before I was born and the only way you would know is a simple grade in the trees or a random logging cable that your chain saw finds that looks today like a vine maple. (that sucked)

Rhino
If you can't really tell the difference you aren't looking close enough. I certainly can around here, and just from the few weeks I spent in Wa I could tell the difference there.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Westy said:
I was not refering to the cause of the fires but attributing the size of them to firefighting.

Example: A fire 50 years ago that would have burned 100,000 acres was fought and limited to 10,000 acres. That 90,000 acres of forest builds up an additional 50 years of fuel. Next time a fire rolls through the higher fuel level burn a larger, hotter, faster fire. The theory is a truly natural forest will burn on occasion, this will thin the forest but not destroy it, certain trees will survive. A forest that has been sheltered from fire will eventually burn hotter killing everything. The damn trees have been around for a very long time, and historically there have been no signs of truly massive fires like we are starting to see.
Good point.

That is what controled burns do...they do the forest fire under the conditions decided by the forest service. More controlled than waiting for nature.

So should we let the fires just burn and catch up? Grass, wild flowers, and even trees have grown again outside Levenworth WA (I say this because I drove by there this weekend on my way to a DH race) the fire hit there like a decade ago and shortly after it started to recover....now you can see charded trees mixed in with healthy trees.

If putting the fire out and leaving is bad, why not manage it and do controlled burns? That cannot be done and managed without forest roads and the removal of the roadless initative.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
golgiaparatus said:
This does not stop the fact that nature was meant to manage itself... it wasnt meant to be managed by man, nature has a lot more experience than we do eh.
And the roadless initiative does this how?....by removing people the Sierra club doesn't want on their (Gov forested) land.

You suggest that the proceedures be changed on how we fight forest fires, yet instead of doing that you decide to cut the wilderness off from everything. make little sense to me, unless you assume:

a: man is ready to let nature deal

b: you are ready to let nature deal

c: managed forests is the threat you have dramatized it to be (now, not 100 years ago)

I suggest to you that the answers are no, no, and not hardley.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Westy said:
If you can't really tell the difference you aren't looking close enough. I certainly can around here, and just from the few weeks I spent in Wa I could tell the difference there.
If you can't see teh ecosystem reestablishng itself than you have missed the simple fact....forest rebuild and nature works around it.

Please let me know where in WA you did your indepth study.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Ah I never knew Rhino - so you've done biodiversity, population, and top soil studies - the works. How you "think" the forests health are doesn't mean anything in terms of their actual health - ever wonder why there are these dead or diseased trees around among the various other problems forests face today? Leave the theories up to the experts.

Your simple minded obervations are the same logic hikers use when they say mountain bikes do more trail damage simply cause they see tire imprints on the trail when they haven't looked at any scientific studies or fail to consider their trail is a high-traffic area for all trail users.

To think that the course of nature is out of control is FAR more beer goggled than to think man can easily do better (man tends not to go for better, but the cheapest or most profitable short-term gains). Nature has been on its own course for billions of years doing just fine.

We've thought we could do better with rivers and dams, but from past experience know its not very easy. As a matter of fact, even experts from the USBR (US Dam experts) were even trying to stop China from putting in the Three Gorges Dam cause they knew it would be a huge mistake...