[$tinkle]

Health providers' 'conscience' rule to take effect

The Bush administration announced its "conscience protection" rule for the healthcare industry Thursday, giving doctors, hospitals, and even receptionists and volunteers in medical experiments the right to refuse to participate in medical care they find morally objectionable.

"This rule protects the right of medical providers to care for their patients in accord with their conscience," said outgoing Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt.

The right-to-refuse rule includes abortion and other aspects of healthcare where moral concerns could arise, Leavitt's office said, such as birth control, emergency contraception, in vitro fertilization, stem cell research and assisted suicide.

The rule, to be published today in the Federal Register, takes effect the day before President Bush leaves office.

no care = no cost

and here i was calling him a fiscally irresponsible spender

 

[$tinkle]

and in a related twist: California Supreme Court allows good Samaritans to be sued for nonmedical care

uhhh....the parable of the good samaritan has him rendering medical care to the guy who got jumped, and paid in advance for his recovery at an inn

 

[Stray_cat]

So does this mean a good portion of the south will be without health care?

 

[Samirol]

now, a doctor can choose not to treat a transgendered person, I can't believe he is getting away with this

 

[4xBoy]

and in a related twist: California Supreme Court allows good Samaritans to be sued for nonmedical care

uhhh....the parable of the good samaritan has him rendering medical care to the guy who got jumped, and paid in advance for his recovery at an inn

I hope one of those judges gets left for dead cause of that rule.

 

[$tinkle]

now, a doctor can choose not to treat a transgendered person, I can't believe he is getting away with this

or a leftist from giving pre-natal care for a young minority would-be mother, opting instead to push for abortion

 

[Samirol]

or a leftist from giving pre-natal care for a young minority would-be mother, opting instead to push for abortion

Let's face it, this is all about not having to dispense birth control and perform abortions.

 

[$tinkle]

Let's face it, this is all about not having to dispense birth control and perform abortions.

so now you're anti-choice?

 

[kidwoo]

so now you're anti-choice?

Don't even start that shlt.


I'm paid to do a job. Some of that job involves providing services for companies I don't happen to like so much. If I don't do it I get fired........just like the rest of the world. The medical community is no different, ESPECIALLY in light of those taking the hippopatamus oath.

 

[Defenestrated]

keep in mind that "conscience protection" is nothing more than a euphemism for medical discrimination

 

[punkassean]

here's my healthcare plan...call me crazy. Some of you most likely will.

1) ban refined sugar and corn syrup
2) ban bleached white flour
3) make "Good Calories, Bad Calories" required reading in schools

there it is. problem solved. No more adult-onset diabetes, no more colon cancer, no more obesity, the list goes on and on and on.....

 

[kidwoo]

there it is. problem solved.

My separated shoulder and pregnant girlfriend are all better now.


Thanks!

 

[ohio]

Seriously, is he just lighting the wells on fire on his way of Kuwait?

 

[ohio]

I can't, in good conscience, subscribe viagra and cialis to seniors because ciotus is a dirty dirty thing, and if God wants you to stop then you should stop. Let's see how long that lasts in the Senate.

 

[punkassean]

My separated shoulder and pregnant girlfriend are all better now.


Thanks!

BWAHAHAAHA! that's rich.

Get all the Fatty McFattersons out of the system and we'd have all the money in the world to dial in your busted shoulder and your special lady's womanly needs.

 

[$tinkle]

Don't even start that shlt.

oh yes i did

I'm paid to do a job. Some of that job involves providing services for companies I don't happen to like so much. If I don't do it I get fired........just like the rest of the world.

so gays who out themselves in the military....same compassion?

The medical community is no different, ESPECIALLY in light of those taking the hippopatamus oath.

you do realize the original oath had the phrase "...shall not give an abortifacient", right?

then nirvana had to make penny royal tea cool again; it was nearly the death knell of pioneering hipsters

 

[Defenestrated]

So you support medical discrimination?

 

[Silver]

so gays who out themselves in the military....same compassion?

There's nothing that prevents a hired killer of brown people from being a homosexual.

It's not like homosexual says, "I can't kill that mudperson, I suck dick after work!"

 

[$tinkle]

So you support medical discrimination?

of course not; you don't like abortions, don't have/give one, which of course translates into "don't receive training & take a gig where you might be obliged to do so"

It's not like homosexual says, "I can't kill that mudperson, I suck dick after work!"

to this day haggard closets himself, and he's a soldier of sorts.

something to be learned from this man

 

[Plummit]

oh yes i did
so gays who out themselves in the military....same compassion?

This rule may well change in the next few years. I would think the difference here is that the 'gays' in question have chosen to follow their conscience and serve their country following orders in every way but one. Is this so different from thousands of kids who lied about their ages to go fight for their country in WWII. Unless you think the gays are doing it just to get close to hot, buff dudes in uniform.

you do realize the original oath had the phrase "...shall not give an abortifacient", right?

And the original Pledge of Allegiance had no reference to God. Don't like this latter change, but approve of the former. Point is, times change. I guess I don't have a problem with docs and pharmacists not prescribing or filling prescriptions, as long as they make clear their point of view, and, to Kidwoo's point, understand that there are employers who will find their stated positions untenable, i.e. free to work elsewhere. People who come to see a doc typically trust them to tell them the truth and lay out available options. If you go see a doc, and they're only giving you half the story b/c of some belief system they have, but you don't share, that's just messed up.

then nirvana had to make penny royal tea cool again; it was nearly the death knell of pioneering hipsters

Funny, but sad, too. I'm hoping the evangelical tide of insanity is waning, but if it's not and we become ever more dogmatic and blindly religious, you may find the next generation's 'Nirvana' singing about coathangers.

 

[$tinkle]

This rule may well change in the next few years. I would think the difference here is that the 'gays' in question have chosen to follow their conscience and serve their country following orders in every way but one.

i'm for ditching this silly policy, as the glaring "moral" double standard turns a blind eye to heterosexual promiscuity

Is this so different from thousands of kids who lied about their ages to go fight for their country in WWII.

correct; unemployment was around %458

People who come to see a doc typically trust them to tell them the truth and lay out available options. If you go see a doc, and they're only giving you half the story b/c of some belief system they have, but you don't share, that's just messed up.

including legal options, apparently: Ind. Planned Parenthood counselor in video resigns

A Planned Parenthood of Indiana counselor has resigned after an undercover video showed her telling a woman posing as a 13-year-old that she didn't care about the age of the man who impregnated her, the group said Friday.

Two videos shot at the organization's clinics by an anti-abortion group appear to show workers unconcerned about state law requiring anyone learning of sexual acts between an adult and a child under 14 to report them to police or child welfare authorities. A nursing aide seen in the other video was previously fired.

 

[Plummit]

correct; unemployment was around %458

Wasn't why my wife's step-father joined the marines and lied about his age. I think you may be too cynical by half on this score.

including legal options, apparently: Ind. Planned Parenthood counselor in video resigns

Saw reps from PP and Colorado Right to Life (or whatever they're called) on C-SPAN prior to the Nov election. Debate was about the Colorado Life Amendment (something about feti having the right to own property ? ) Mr. 'Life' kept stating that abortion should be banned, in part, b/c groups like PP were 'enabling' incestuous rapists to do it over and over again, b/c the crime would be hidden. So many things logically wrong w/ this argument that it's hard to know where to begin. However, seems like Planned Parenthood has been doing it's best to follow the law. Also, this is 'gotcha' video done by a group sending people to the clinic with the specific intent of lying to doctors and staff to see if they can get something 'shocking' or newsworthy.

From the AP story you quoted, funny name aside:

Cockrum denied the two cases indicated Planned Parenthood has a culture of failing to report sexual activity by underage children, as some opponents have alleged. She said her organization conducts audits to turn up abuse cases that haven't been reported.

Planned Parenthood reported 123 cases of suspected child abuse to Indiana authorities in 2007, Shepherd said.

"I'm very serious when I say it's an imperative here. We take this reporting requirement very seriously," Cockrum said.

Really, this notion that PP is focused on simply performing abortions and not caring for children who've been abused is beyond stupid, and, more importantly utterly and completely intellectually dishonest.

 

[sanjuro]

I object to this ruling mostly because it is anti-science.

Basically, any employees of a medical organization, even ones without any involvement in the medical side, could force their company from objecting to certain procedures.

I love it if there was someone who objected to basic treatment, like injections or wound care, and then forced their company from performing them.

I thought up a good one: a janitor says he cannot clean up anything with involving human waste because of moral reasons. He can sit on his ass at a hospital!

 

[$tinkle]

Saw reps from PP and Colorado Right to Life (or whatever they're called) on C-SPAN prior to the Nov election. Debate was about the Colorado Life Amendment

it was poorly written proposed legislation. essentially, it could hold a GP liable for prescribing drugs which may accidentally cause a miscarriage. i'm pro-life, but anti-stupid

it's hard to know where to begin. However, seems like Planned Parenthood has been doing it's best to follow the law. Also, this is 'gotcha' video done by a group sending people to the clinic with the specific intent of lying to doctors and staff to see if they can get something 'shocking' or newsworthy.

sorry, did protecting the dignity & health of little girls suddenly take a back seat to the methods by which they're collected?

Really, this notion that PP is focused on simply performing abortions and not caring for children who've been abused is beyond stupid, and, more importantly utterly and completely intellectually dishonest.

good thing i never re-wrote their mission statement in my prev post. and since "care" for children who may have been victims of rape is so important, 100% compliance shouldn't be an unnecessarily lofty & unrealistic goal.

 

[Plummit]

sorry, did protecting the dignity & health of little girls suddenly take a back seat to the methods by which they're collected?

Funny, as the anti-abortion side feel the best way to protect their "health and dignity" is to force young girls to carry babies to term that were sired by rapists, pedophiles, and abusers?

good thing i never re-wrote their mission statement in my prev post. and since "care" for children who may have been victims of rape is so important, 100% compliance shouldn't be an unnecessarily lofty & unrealistic goal.

Sounds like they are trying to achieve "100% compliance."

Hence and again, bold mine:

Cockrum denied the two cases indicated Planned Parenthood has a culture of failing to report sexual activity by underage children, as some opponents have alleged. She said her organization conducts audits to turn up abuse cases that haven't been reported.

Planned Parenthood reported 123 cases of suspected child abuse to Indiana authorities in 2007, Shepherd said.

"I'm very serious when I say it's an imperative here. We take this reporting requirement very seriously," Cockrum said.

Claiming that two individuals who fail to comply with the law are examplars of the entire "culture" at PP would be like my taking the stand that Eric Rudolph is proof positive that the anti-abortion crowd is predominantly composed of pro- murder and mayhem anarchists...

 

[$tinkle]

Funny, as the anti-abortion side feel the best way to protect their "health and dignity" is to force young girls to carry babies to term that were sired by rapists, pedophiles, and abusers?

no, the best way is achieved through abstinence. but, once pregnant, don't you think PP should be more informative about adoption options? health & dignity of the pregnant girl can be achieved outside abortion, no?

Claiming that two individuals who fail to comply with the law are examplars of the entire "culture" at PP would be like my taking the stand that Eric Rudolph is proof positive that the anti-abortion crowd is predominantly composed of pro- murder and mayhem anarchists...

you're comparing sperm to eggs.

these are the latest 2 in the past couple decades
rudolph was the only one for the same time period

 

[Plummit]

no, the best way is achieved through abstinence. but, once pregnant, don't you think PP should be more informative about adoption options? health & dignity of the pregnant girl can be achieved outside abortion, no?

I'm not sure rapists are interested in abstinence, and, rapists aside, I think abstinence is generally a ludicrous, unrealistic and, indeed, potentially dangerous goal.

But, yes, PP should make adoption options known. Do they not? I'm not a girl, but I can't imagine how being raped and subsequently forced to carry that baby to term would protect either my health or dignity. You didn't choose congress with or humiliation and physical/mental violence at the hands of your attacker. I fail to see how having the choice to rid yourself of his seed stripped from you is helpful.

you're comparing sperm to eggs.

these are the latest 2 in the past couple decades
rudolph was the only one for the same time period

One bomber, but hundreds of acts of violence, including but not limited to: shootings, arson, stalking, harassment, physical assault, and threats of bioterrorism (false anthrax threats):

Violence at US and Canadian Abortion Clinics
Abortion related violence

 

[sanjuro]

no, the best way is achieved through abstinence. but, once pregnant, don't you think PP should be more informative about adoption options? health & dignity of the pregnant girl can be achieved outside abortion, no?
you're comparing sperm to eggs.

these are the latest 2 in the past couple decades
rudolph was the only one for the same time period

Hey, I object to organ transplants because of moral reasons.

I am going to get a job at a hospital and shut them down.

 

[$tinkle]

from planned parenthood's main site, we have this on the left side:

Health Topics
Birth Control
Learn about the pill, condoms, and other birth control methods.

Abortion
Learn about abortion methods and how to get abortion services.

Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs) & Safer Sex
Learn about the prevention and treatment of STDs, including HIV.

Pregnancy
Learn about pregnancy planning, prenatal care, and infertility.

Emergency Contraception
(Morning After Pill)
Learn about how the morning after pill works and how to get it.

View all topics

and on the right

Bush Administration’s Final Attack on Women’s Health The Bush administration just implemented a disastrous new policy that would limit the rights of patients to receive complete and accurate reproductive health information when they visit a health care provider that receives federal funding.

no matter which side (if any) of this debate one is on, this is laughable in its hypocrisy.

and if hypocrisy is a nickel, i throw that word around like manhole covers

in no sooner than 3 clicks can you get adoption information, while on the main page abortion is staring you in the face like a 22 week old pickled brown foetus

 

[Plummit]

from planned parenthood's main site, we have this on the left side:and on the rightno matter which side (if any) of this debate one is on, this is laughable in its hypocrisy.

Just b/c it's not on the front page of their site does not mean they don't provide information about all options available when you actually go to a clinic. The 'Bush' issue they bring up is actually quite different: it would mean, should the clinic accept federal funds, the information won't be present on the website, in person, or anywhere no matter how many 'clicks' deep you go or questions you ask.

Hypocrisy? Not even close.

Interesting that PP does provide information on adoption when you click "trying to decide" on the abortion page and via numerous other vectors. Seems to me they are doing a decent job of presenting all the available options to women as opposed to hiding or restricting them. This anti-choice tactic of trying to paint PP as some sort of abortion mill, tricking and forcing young women into abortion against their will or with limited knowledge is disingenuous in the extreme.

BTW, how about all those acts of violence by the anti-choice set? Wouldn't be hard to start painting with a broad brush based on that data, although it would be equally disingenuous...

 

[$tinkle]

The 'Bush' issue they bring up is actually quite different: it would mean, should the clinic accept federal funds, the information won't be present on the website, in person, or anywhere no matter how many 'clicks' deep you go or questions you ask.

no, it does not. it prohibits recipients of federal money from discriminating against doctors, nurses and other health care workers who refuse to perform or to assist in the performance of abortions or sterilization procedures because of their “religious beliefs or moral convictions.”

Interesting that PP does provide information on adoption when you click "trying to decide" on the abortion page and via numerous other vectors. Seems to me they are doing a decent job of presenting all the available options to women as opposed to hiding or restricting them. This anti-choice tactic of trying to paint PP as some sort of abortion mill, tricking and forcing young women into abortion against their will or with limited knowledge is disingenuous in the extreme.

how disingenuous are stubborn facts? in FY2006, they performed 289,750 abortions, gave pre-natal care for 11,058, and 2,413 referrals for adoption.

that's 100:1 [abortion:adoption]

source: LifeNews, April 2008

BTW, how about all those acts of violence by the anti-choice set? Wouldn't be hard to start painting with a broad brush based on that data, although it would be equally disingenuous...

you mean those 5 murderous incidents in the 90's (and none since i should add)? how would those numbers stack up against viable life snuffed out for reasons other than rape, incest, danger to the girl's life (i.e., convenience) for the same time period?

 

[Samirol]

how disingenuous are stubborn facts? in FY2006, they performed 289,750 abortions, gave pre-natal care for 11,058, and 2,413 referrals for adoption.

14,000 newborns were put up for adoption in 2003, and 1.3 million abortions took place in that year, so actually, Planned Parenthood's 100:1 ratio is about the same as the rest of the country.

stubborn facts indeed

edit: source http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-richards29oct29,0,5137479.story?coll=la-news-comment

 

[$tinkle]

14,000 newborns were put up for adoption in 2003, and 1.3 million abortions took place in that year, so actually, Planned Parenthood's 100:1 ratio is about the same as the rest of the country.

stubborn facts indeed

edit: source http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-richards29oct29,0,5137479.story?coll=la-news-comment

wat?

are you assuming that those who received abortions outside of PP (75% or higher) also received adoption options? i honestly don't know, and i'm not sure if it's relevant, b/c the argument then becomes "well, they're doing it, too"

i can't imagine the lion's share of abortions are for reasons other than extreme inconvenience, or "pre-emptive humanitarian reasons" (i.e., "he would just be neglected & prone to criminality"). i'm not putting this in PP's lap, but they're considered by many to be a reliable source for all things women's health. would it be so objectionable for them to lead the way for viewing human life as dignified & sacred, instead of a clump of cells w/ some vague sense of personhood after 23 weeks?

i don't think abortion should be outlawed across the board, just to follow clinton's lead of keeping them "safe, legal, rare". and with over 3:1 [live births:abortions], 'taint rare.

doesn't that seem a bit unsettling? 25% of pregnancies end in abortion?

 

[Samirol]

It isn't unsettling at all, it is what happens when you have abstinence-only education in a society that is frightened to talk about sex, but loves sex. There are going to be a lot of abortions with the way sex is treated in society.

However, I do think that PP does see babies as special and dignified, but it is a woman's right to choose whether to abort it. If you want to reduce abortions, we need to stop being puritanical about it and be comfortable with sex. People are fine with seeing limbs ripped apart on TV, but they see a sex scene and they go covering their kid's eyes.

It is a part of women's rights for a woman to choose to abort a baby at any stage without interference. It is her body, and the state shouldn't worry about what she does to herself.

 

[Plummit]

no, it does not. it prohibits recipients of federal money from discriminating against doctors, nurses and other health care workers who refuse to perform or to assist in the performance of abortions or sterilization procedures because of their “religious beliefs or moral convictions.”

My bad, I thought you were referencing the "Global Gag Rule" rather than the latest, and hopefully short-lived, decree allowing health care "professionals" to decide based on their beliefs that the pill is actually abortion and deny patients information or access.

How disingenuous are stubborn facts? in FY2006, they performed 289,750 abortions, gave pre-natal care for 11,058, and 2,413 referrals for adoption.

that's 100:1 [abortion:adoption]

I see nothing disingenuous here, other than inferring from the data that PP is somehow responsible for the choices made by women, rather than simply carrying out those wishes in a safe, legal, and medically responsible manner. That they are providing referrals for adoption shows that it is a service they provide.

source: LifeNews, April 2008
you mean those 5 murderous incidents in the 90's (and none since i should add)? how would those numbers stack up against viable life snuffed out for reasons other than rape, incest, danger to the girl's life (i.e., convenience) for the same time period?

Conceding the rape and incest point? LOL Five murders (or perhaps seven,) sure , but take a look at the earlier links I posted, reposted below. Hundreds of assaults and acts of violence, bomb threats, and other illegal activities. BTW, abortion is legal, I guess this means you are in favor of illegal terrorist acts by the anti set? You certainly make a comparison/equivalence between them.

Again: Violence at US and Canadian Abortion Clinics

Wiki: Abortion Related Violence

 

[ohio]

i can't imagine the lion's share of abortions are for reasons other than extreme inconvenience, or "pre-emptive humanitarian reasons" (i.e., "he would just be neglected & prone to criminality"). i'm not putting this in PP's lap, but they're considered by many to be a reliable source for all things women's health. would it be so objectionable for them to lead the way for viewing human life as dignified & sacred, instead of a clump of cells w/ some vague sense of personhood after 23 weeks?

But you are putting this in PP's lap. You sound like you are expecting them to change their mission from providing services that are inline with current societal norms and accepted science and instead pursue a goal ("lead the way") skewed by your mores.

If you don't like our cultural norms, it is your job to change them, not an organization that doesn't share your right of center belief system.

 

[ohio]

This is simple. If you object to the operations or tasks that must be performed in a specific profession, you DO NOT JOIN that profession. You are welcome to try to change the profession from the outside, but especially when the tasks are urgent and often geographically limited, it is illegal to deny service for which you are a licensed professional. Illegal and grossly negligent.

Illegal.

If you are a faith healer, you cannot be a pharmacist. Pick a different ****ing profession.

 

[kidwoo]

Sorry....had to go skiing for a bit.

oh yes i did
so gays who out themselves in the military....same compassion?

More compassion. Because calling yourself shirley and singing cher at the first sign of gunfire is still having the balls to quit the job. It's not like they're refusing to follow orders and still expecting service employment.

See the difference?

you do realize the original oath had the phrase "...shall not give an abortifacient", right?

You mean the one from ancient greece? Maybe we should ask hades and athena how they feel about it. Might ask Thor if I can borrow his hammer for some chiropractic work while we're at it.

How about you address the oath that the people we're actually talking about here subscribe to. You know....the jesus fvcks who don't do their job and expect to keep it without reprimand. Sorry for insisting on relevancy but you understand.

 

[$tinkle]

If you want to reduce abortions, we need to stop being puritanical about it and be comfortable with sex. People are fine with seeing limbs ripped apart on TV, but they see a sex scene and they go covering their kid's eyes.

believe it or not, i've held this belief for a long time, and am more aware being a parent

It is a part of women's rights for a woman to choose to abort a baby at any stage without interference. It is her body, and the state shouldn't worry about what she does to herself.

3rd trimester? where did this right transcend viability outside the womb? and it's not so much what she does to herself that people have a problem with. you know that, right?

My bad, I thought you were referencing the "Global Gag Rule" rather than the latest, and hopefully short-lived, decree allowing health care "professionals" to decide based on their beliefs that the pill is actually abortion and deny patients information or access.

worry not; i don't believe a pill that prevents implantation == abortion

BTW, abortion is legal

i see it as inconsistent that a girl can voluntarily - but not legally - consent to sex, but that same standard isn't equally applied to seeking to terminate an unintended pregnancy. fighting for the "rights" of the underage to get an abortion, but ignoring her "rights" to sex seems a bit inconsistent, and much to the chagrin of their counterparts & close uncles

You sound like you are expecting them to change their mission from providing services that are inline with current societal norms and accepted science and instead pursue a goal ("lead the way") skewed by your mores.

so encouraging underage sex - let's call it what it is when you distribute contraception - is inline w/ current societal norms?

 

[Plummit]

so encouraging underage sex - let's call it what it is when you distribute contraception - is inline w/ current societal norms?

Telling them not to have sex doesn't seem to work very well (abstinence,) and I'm not sure PP is encouraging underage sex. While you can't prevent all kids from having sex, you can help them prevent the spread of disease, and hopefully avoid unwanted (aren't they all at the ages you are intimating?) pregnancies.

In any case, out of town til the 1st. Just wanted to wish you all, recognizing that this is an extremely odd place to do it , Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and all the best in the coming year.

Cheers!