[narlus]

I have 2 under the age of 4. They have travelled all over the country and eaten at many restaurants and are always perfect.
We are VERY cognisant (spelling?) of our kids and how their behaviour affects others.
We were both raised by parents who occasionally spanked us with apaggle, spoon, brush, whatever. We have both grown up to be normal people.
If you have kids you realize that at certain times there is just simply no reasoning with them. You cannot reason with a tired 3 year old all the time. You can distract them, make them sit in a chair, etc. The counting / time out thing works in most cases, but sometimes not. In those cases it is not unreasonable to smack the kid on the ass. Not hard enough to hurt, but enough to get their attention.

so after you get their attention, do they stop crying? or cry more? did it help the situation? you stated in this case that they are tired. well, tired kids whine and fuss. it's natural. i can't see how spanking them when they are in this state helps matters.

You might say that my parenting sucks, but what do you know.

well as BV stated, if spanking is an automatic, no-thought-involved response to an unruly child, it's clearly over the line. at least in my opinion. you state that this is used as a last resort and infrequently, which is certainly better than the above, but i still question what good it does. i dunno, maybe i will change my mind as my kids get older (a few months shy of 4 and 6), but i doubt it. our method is working for us.

I certainly can say that there are alot of kids that have crappy parents. My parents spanked me and I consider them my heros. My parents also love me, gave me everything I needed to become a successful, HAPPY person. When I think back I laugh at the brush my Mom used to use, but remember the fact that they were great parents.

i got spanked as well (though not frequently; in fact i can't recall any specific instances), and have the same thought of my parents as you do. doesn't mean other ways won't work, and i'm gonna try 'em out.

Besides you want your kid to be some kind of pussy who won't ride a bike because he's afraid of falling and getting a scrape?

so you toughen up the kids by hitting them? do you raise pit bulls too?

 

[narlus]

Pay attention: I'm saying that no method works with all kids, and no one method ALWAYS works with any particular child. Saying that one method is wrong, or an easy way out, is utter crap.

but your clear inference (unless, once again, i failed to pay attention) is that ALL these "hippie/rich/bourgeoise" households spare the rod and spoil the child. and now 40% of these kids are spoiled hellions w/ a penchant for stabbing attacks using pencils.

 

[DH Diva]

w/ a penchant for stabbing attacks using pencils.

I stabbed someone with a pencil once.....

 

[jimmydean]

When other means fail, I have found that a swift swat on the backside has corrected my daughter straight away. It's a ! at the end of the sentence. Not used often, but at times, it is called for.

I have never taken her over my knee, or used a spoon or other item. It's not hard enough to leave a mark or even make it red. It's a single swat, not a beating. But it gets her attention when she needs it.

 

[Transcend]

but your clear inference (unless, once again, i failed to pay attention) is that ALL these "hippie/rich/bourgeoise" households spare the rod and spoil the child. and now 40% of these kids are spoiled hellions w/ a penchant for stabbing attacks using pencils.

Nope, only reason I pointed that out was so that people didn't start with the "oh well, your mom works in a ghetto school in South Central LA type thing".

Point was i do not know what they do, but a buttload of their kids are complete terrors, and they didn't grow up around gang violence and "the streets".

 

[narlus]

I stabbed someone with a pencil once.....

<marcellus>

obviously there wasn't enough hard-hitting brothers gettin' medieval on yr ass

</marcellus>

 

[narlus]

Nope, only reason I pointed that out was so that people didn't start with the "oh well, your mom works in a ghetto school in South Central LA type thing".

Point was i do not know what they do, but a buttload of their kids are complete terrors, and they didn't grow up around gang violence and "the streets".

as far as i can tell, money has no correlation w/ intelligence or parenting ability.

 

[Transcend]

as far as i can tell, money has no correlation w/ intelligence or parenting ability.

Now I'm lost, I never said it did as far as I recall...

 

[pterodactyl]

I can't do that whole "quote a section then respond to it and quote another section" thing.

Anyway, you are right, tired kids fuss and cry. When they are testing you by being blatantly bad and throwing things, etc I don't think it is wrong to respond to their test with something that suprises them. You can certainly tell when they are really hurt (when they fall, etc) or when they are suprised by the fact that you smacked their bum. My kid immediately understands that the test is over and she is to listen to us again. Kids test you, don't you think they wonder what will happen if they still don't behave after a time out or taking the legos away? The spanking reminds them that the time out and removal of the legos is preferred by all.
If spanking is not the last resort, the parent sucks. A lot of parents suck.
As your kids and mine get older if they are anything like I was, I was pretty good, but occasionally my Dad had to put me back in line and remind me that he is the boss.
Too many kids these days don't respct adults because their own parents are weak. Kids will not respect you if they don't fear you a little.
In the end, when my wife was pregnant all we ever got was advice about how to do this or that. The best advice came from my Dad (as usual). He said,"Do whatever works for you".

I don't raise pitbulls, I raise World Cup Champion DH racers and cage fighters.

 

[narlus]

When other means fail, I have found that a swift swat on the backside has corrected my daughter straight away. It's a ! at the end of the sentence. Not used often, but at times, it is called for.

I have never taken her over my knee, or used a spoon or other item. It's not hard enough to leave a mark or even make it red. It's a single swat, not a beating. But it gets her attention when she needs it.

i can certainly understand and just about agree w/ that line of thinking (just personally i don't swat/swipe/smackdown).

i think i'm gonna get back to 10K posts just by this thread.

nah, it's been good debate; but it's time for me to go to sleep.

 

[narlus]

Now I'm lost, I never said it did as far as I recall...

so then what's yr point of clarifying that the kids come from $2MM houses?

 

[Transcend]

so then what's yr point of clarifying that the kids come from $2MM houses?

Did you ever read my posts? I think i explained it in 2 of them quite clearly.

 

[pterodactyl]

As far as unruly kids from wealthy parents. It seems like there my be some link to wealthy families with crappy kids. Consider Columbine...the families of the kids were not poor. It is more likely the parents worked and didn't take the time to see what was going on with their kids.
I am pretty sure I could not have hidden the fact that i was planning on killing some people. My parents knew what I was doing, where I was. We didn't have video games so we were forced to go outside and play sports. They knew the parents of my friends.
Too many people these days want everything, so both parents work hard and neglect their kids so they can have a Beemer instead of a Honda. Not saying that is always the case by any means, but it seems like a significant possibility of the decline of behaviour of kids.
Combine some of that with something about people born in the 60's roughly and how they began to expect more than their parents maybe, or their new thoughts about parenting in a peaceful way from their hippie moms and dads...the kids don't respect adults and have no fear of the results...who knows, this seems like a topic from Dr. Phil and i hate that guy.

 

[-dustin]

Kids were much better behaved when they were smacked around when they misbehaved...i know this from experience.

i agree. though, my experience is my own ass getting spanked, and sucking on a bar of soap.

 

[Toshi]

psst....check out post #4.

psst... check out post #1

 

[sanjuro]

My coffee house encourages families. They even have a Sunday morning music hour. One thing that helps is three seperate areas, so kids usually head to the back, keeping the front clear for the customers and the adults.

In the shop, I have an extremely simple solution for unruly kids: anyone is welcome to ride a bike as long as they put it back. And of course, the most obvious rule: you break, you buy it. I remind families about that and it is funny how kids get under control instantly.

 

[Silver]

i agree. though, my experience is my own ass getting spanked, and sucking on a bar of soap.

We must go to the same dominatrix...

 

[MudGrrl]

My parents could walk me into a crystal shop, all I needed to hear before we went in was my father telling us not to touch ANYthing....and we knew he wasn't messing around...

People regularly commented on how well behaved we were. And I don't remember being hit at all. I was probably swatted at a few times....

I *do* remember getting kicked out of the car with my brother and sister because we were making a bit of a ruckus...
My parents made us walk a mile down the side of a dirt road (no traffic), while they followed behind us.

 

[binary visions]

Did you ever read my posts? I think i explained it in 2 of them quite clearly.

Your point is still lacking, though.

You said that a lot of these kids are unruly, repeat offenders, etc. So? What does that have to do with hitting kids vs. not hitting them? Is your point that some kids are misbehaved? Woop dee doo, there's a new one.

You have no idea how these parents raise their kids. I had a friend back in elementry school whose mom believed in slapping him when he got out of line, yet he was one of these unruly kids you mention, and slapping him did nothing to curb his behavior. He ended up being a very physically aggressive kid, too, and I'm sure his mom's aggressiveness did nothing but feed that.

He ended up getting arrested twice after I moved.

Physical violence against children is a lousy way to teach them anything. A very occasional spanking can be a last resort tool IMO, as much because it's a little frightening than really painful.

I think the "back in the old days" arguement is bunk. It's more of a respect issue than anything else - kids were brought up with a lot more respect for authority and adults in general, and it had nothing to do with being hit when they did something wrong. You can teach respect without resorting to hitting someone. My dad never hit me but when he raised his voice it was scary and I quit doing whatever I was doing. I think people don't raise their kids with the same kind of respect, and even if some parents try, society as a whole doesn't do it so the kids see poor examples everywhere.

 

[DH Diva]

<marcellus>

obviously there wasn't enough hard-hitting brothers gettin' medieval on yr ass

</marcellus>

I still maintain that it was a rational and appropriate action given the circumstances.

I had a computer tech class in high school one year where we had to do projects with partners. Well I get this guy as my partner that clearly didn't understand the idea of personal space.

After being told many times that if he didn't back off, I was going to stab him in the thigh with a pencil, he still didn't back off. So straight to the thigh with the pencil!

I was given a new partner after that! Sometimes a little violence is necessary, as long as it can be excecuted in a rational and calm manner.

 

[narlus]

bump for transcend.

i was thinking about this a tad more.

it's obviously a TV show (and probably shouldn't be taken at face value), but the show Super Nanny shows how you can calm the yammering, misbehaving brats down w/ a consistent manner than doesn't involve a lashing.

 

[Westy]

I still maintain that it was a rational and appropriate action given the circumstances.

I had a computer tech class in high school one year where we had to do projects with partners. Well I get this guy as my partner that clearly didn't understand the idea of personal space.

After being told many times that if he didn't back off, I was going to stab him in the thigh with a pencil, he still didn't back off. So straight to the thigh with the pencil. bar
I was given a new partner after that! Sometimes a little violence is necessary, as long as it can be excecuted in a rational and calm manner.

Friend of mine has a little brother who stabbed a classmate with a pencil. Dude kept trying to pinch him (creepy), after several warnings the pincher was stabbed in the back of the hand with a pencil. Barely broke the skin. Kid was expelled from school, threatened with assault with deadly weapon charges and a civil suit. Times have changed.

 

[N8 v2.0]

bump for transcend.

i was thinking about this a tad more.

it's obviously a TV show (and probably shouldn't be taken at face value), but the show Super Nanny shows how you can calm the yammering, misbehaving brats down w/ a consistent manner than doesn't involve a lashing.

A lot of kids will be perfect angels for strangers/teachers/etc but when at home with mom and dad... all bets are off.

 

[narlus]

A lot of kids will be perfect angels for strangers/teachers/etc but when at home with mom and dad... all bets are off.

that's rather telling. why would they selectively change their behavior?

 

[Transcend]

Your point is still lacking, though.

You said that a lot of these kids are unruly, repeat offenders, etc. So? What does that have to do with hitting kids vs. not hitting them? Is your point that some kids are misbehaved? Woop dee doo, there's a new one.

You have no idea how these parents raise their kids.

That was actually sort of my point - of those 600 kids, lets say 250 are troublemakers. Of those 250, we can pretty much guarantee that sone were parented one way, and some the other.

 

[N8 v2.0]

that's rather telling. why would they selectively change their behavior?

I don't know... maybe the parents are ruled by the kids as in a lot of the Nanny shows.

 

[narlus]

That was actually sort of my point - of those 600 kids, lets say 250 are troublemakers. Of those 250, we can pretty much guarantee that sone were parented one way, and some the other.

and you are drawing that conclusion (that a portion of the non-spankers have the demon children)? what *is* the conclusion, that variability will happen regardless? i'm still lost, and i am still at a loss to see how family income factors into it.

 

[binary visions]

That was actually sort of my point - of those 600 kids, lets say 250 are troublemakers. Of those 250, we can pretty much guarantee that sone were parented one way, and some the other.

I'm with narlus here... I don't get it

When all is said and done, what's your point? I thought your point was that hitting kids was an effective parenting method?

 

[narlus]

I don't know... maybe the parents are ruled by the kids as in a lot of the Nanny shows.

no doubt about it. the kids are out of control because they have no boundaries. i'm not arguing that; just the premise that you can't set boundaries without spankings.

spanking is kind of a fey term...lashing sounds better.

 

[N8 v2.0]

no doubt about it. the kids are out of control because they have no boundaries. i'm not arguing that; just the premise that you can't set boundaries without spankings.

spanking is kind of a fey term...lashing sounds better.

I know a number of young adults 18-25 who were not spanked as children and it shows...

 

[Transcend]

and you are drawing that conclusion (that a portion of the non-spankers have the demon children)? what *is* the conclusion, that variability will happen regardless? i'm still lost, and i am still at a loss to see how family income factors into it.

family income doesnt come into play with the children at all, it does come into play with the school environment.

IE: peopel will usually come to the conclusion that schools in compton will have more violence and trouble makers then schools in beverly hills. Not saying this is the case, but would usually be the general consensus.

 

[Transcend]

no doubt about it. the kids are out of control because they have no boundaries. i'm not arguing that; just the premise that you can't set boundaries without spankings.

spanking is kind of a fey term...lashing sounds better.

I can tell you right now, talking to me as a child would have done nothing. Hell, spanking barely did.

 

[narlus]

I know a number of young adults 18-25 who were not spanked as children and it shows...

and i am sure that all the spanked ones all toe the line.

 

[Transcend]

I'm with narlus here... I don't get it

When all is said and done, what's your point? I thought your point was that hitting kids was an effective parenting method?

I believe it is for some children. Some kids will definitely not listen to reason/talking. Period. End of story.

 

[narlus]

I can tell you right now, talking to me as a child would have done nothing. Hell, spanking barely did.

talking (typing) to you as an adult yields the same result. story checks out.

 

[narlus]

I believe it is for some children. Some kids will definitely not listen to reason/talking. Period. End of story.

it's not a debate. you take action, by taking away some of their personal freedom or pleasure, in response to their bad behavior.

get back to me once yr brood is active.

 

[Westy]

I was never spanked as a child and was very well behaved. Spanking the crap out of my older sister in front of me was warning enough.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Spanking our son is a last resort. Noah has a bad habit of throwing his food, so we pick him up and make him pick it up........he doesn't like doing that and make the association that thowing food results in picking food up.....of course this has to be consistantly enforced.

There have been times when he would get out of control and a swat straightened him up.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Spanking our son is a last resort. Noah has a bad habit of throwing his food, so we pick him up and make him pick it up........he doesn't like doing that and make the association that thowing food results in picking food up.....of course this has to be consistantly enforced.

There have been times when he would get out of control and a swat straightened him up.

As a parent you only need to give a kid a couple good spankings. After that the threat of spanking is all you need.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Spanking our son is a last resort. Noah has a bad habit of throwing his food, so we pick him up and make him pick it up........he doesn't like doing that and make the association that thowing food results in picking food up.....of course this has to be consistantly enforced.

There have been times when he would get out of control and a swat straightened him up.

It definitely depends on the kid. My first has never been swatted, but my second one has a couple times. Both times it definitely got his attention. Crying/carrying on actually stopped fairly quickly after a swat.