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englertracing

Monkey
Mar 5, 2012
269
107
La Verne
So I've found all sorts of graphs about tension and lateral stiffness
but how about spoke count on a like hub and rim?
32 has 14% more spokes than 28, but I am certain that the wheel wont be 14% stiffer laterally.
any numbers, graphs, theories?
 

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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I have 28 spoke carbon xc wheels. The difference in stiffness is noticeable (carbon, not spoke count, but I don't find the spoke count to be detrimental. Then again it is xc). Everything else I'm on is 32. Both my sets of carbon wheels gave bladed spokes (largely coincidence, not specifically my choice). I was listening to a podcast or maybe watching some redbull special about a WC racer and I recall them saying something about bladed spokes being more laterally compliant. But I have no way to quantify that.
 

ZHendo

Turbo Monkey
Oct 29, 2006
1,586
53
PNW
Another important consideration is lacing pattern...you can make a lower spoke count wheel stiffer (not the same as stronger...) by using fewer crosses. That's how a lot of companies are getting away with using fewer spokes on complete wheels to drop weight
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
6,195
1,855
Ottawa, Canada
This is what Roger Musson wrote about spoke count in his book "Professional Guide to Wheel Building" (I have the 6th edition, not sure how many have come out since [edited to add: he's at 7 now.]):
upload_2019-3-18_10-46-23.png

source
 
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mykel

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2013
2,042
693
sw ontario canada
I find you dont notice much difference if the wheel is built well. Until you get a stick in the spokes. You can loose a spoke and ride out with 32 count.

Yup, soft taco a wheel.
Remove from fork.
Beat against ground to "true" it back up.
Wrap broken (3) spokes around adjacent spokes
Re-install wheel
Ride - albeit slowly, out.

32 FTW.
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
9,762
2,108
AK
Yup, soft taco a wheel.
Remove from fork.
Beat against ground to "true" it back up.
Wrap broken (3) spokes around adjacent spokes
Re-install wheel
Ride - albeit slowly, out.

32 FTW.
Oh, you've been to South Mountain too.
 

englertracing

Monkey
Mar 5, 2012
269
107
La Verne
I like the Idea of a 36h with dt aerolite
but nobody is doing 36h anymore really, I mean 36h hadley hubs can be had for cheap... Flanges are narrow AF though and nobody makes a rim for that really.

But really I was just curious about the theoretical comparison of the same hub and wheel design with
36 spoke with something like DT revolution 2.0 - 1.5 - 2.0
32 spoke with something like DT Competion Race with 2.0 - 1.6 - 2.0
28 spoke with something like DT Competion with 2.0 - 1.8 - 2.0
 

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
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are stan's rims still made of cheese?
350g aluminum rims...what did people think would happen? lol....

It's been discussed before, but a HUGE amount of stiffness comes from the rim itself. If anything, some of the carbon rims do allow you to go to lesser spoke counts, but a majority of this on high end bikes is to save weight and cost and look cool IMO, not to build a durable light and stiff wheelset. That's not the ultimate priority on a mass produced bike where 4 spokes less makes your bike lighter than the next brand.
 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
I like the Idea of a 36h with dt aerolite
but nobody is doing 36h anymore really, I mean 36h hadley hubs can be had for cheap... Flanges are narrow AF though and nobody makes a rim for that really.

But really I was just curious about the theoretical comparison of the same hub and wheel design with
36 spoke with something like DT revolution 2.0 - 1.5 - 2.0
32 spoke with something like DT Competion Race with 2.0 - 1.6 - 2.0
28 spoke with something like DT Competion with 2.0 - 1.8 - 2.0
My 36h asym crabon DH layup rim with CX Ray spokes and Hadley hub feels indestructible.
 

englertracing

Monkey
Mar 5, 2012
269
107
La Verne
I almost went with LB, hadleys 36h aerolites.
looks like this set will be
EX511, RF VAULT straight pull 28h, maybe aerocomp.
The super wide large diameter straight pull flanges made me do it.
 
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Electric_City

The orangutans are loose!
Apr 14, 2007
1,517
376
So im curious as to what your aversion to them stems from.
Truing them. Unless you're using vice grips, there's a good chance that the whole spoke will turn with the nip. I've worked on some without issue. But when they spin, there's not really an easy way around it. My buddies Rovals were a bitch to true/tension. He was determined, so he gave it an hours worth of his time and said fuck it. It's a problem that doesn't occur with j-bend. I'm not bashing you Btw. It's just that if you can avoid them, I would recommend that to you. If not, don't worry about it much. Just let someone else tension them later on.
 

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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Truing them. Unless you're using vice grips, there's a good chance that the whole spoke will turn with the nip. I've worked on some without issue. But when they spin, there's not really an easy way around it. My buddies Rovals were a bitch to true/tension. He was determined, so he gave it an hours worth of his time and said fuck it. It's a problem that doesn't occur with j-bend. I'm not bashing you Btw. It's just that if you can avoid them, I would recommend that to you. If not, don't worry about it much. Just let someone else tension them later on.
bladed spokes at least give you an indication of the amount of twist.
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,719
354
there's other reasons to run bladed spokes.
So you can slice parts of yourself off if you accidentally touch the wheel during a crash?

I get it for XC and Road, but I'm not convinced their valuable enough to be a positive on a more...exciting bike.
 

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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So you can slice parts of yourself off if you accidentally touch the wheel during a crash?

I get it for XC and Road, but I'm not convinced their valuable enough to be a positive on a more...exciting bike.
yea, that comment wasn't intent to be "oh use bladed spokes for dh/enduro" just a general comment that there are reasons to run bladed beyond just being able to tell if you're getting spoke wind up. fwiw my enve m70's have bladed spokes, but that wasn't my decision
 

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
1,734
133
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
So you can slice parts of yourself off if you accidentally touch the wheel during a crash?

I get it for XC and Road, but I'm not convinced their valuable enough to be a positive on a more...exciting bike.
They have wrench flats. I'll never build or own a round spoke again. The only downside is price and I love being able to turn the nipples just the right amount with zero spoke twist and the ease of holding them with a spoke holder. I'm working with Park to release a lower profile spoke wrench that lets the spoke holder sit closer to the nipple.
 

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
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133
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
I just can't wrap my head around the industry's adoption of 28 spoke wheels. Look at a new bike and they're all 28s. Even 29" enduro. It's not like the rims are different. I had wide carbon 26" rims with 32 spokes on enduro bikes but now I'm supposed to believe that 28 spoke are enough on a 29" rim used for the same purpose?
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
1,246
511
Styria
I just can't wrap my head around the industry's adoption of 28 spoke wheels. Look at a new bike and they're all 28s. Even 29" enduro. It's not like the rims are different. I had wide carbon 26" rims with 32 spokes on enduro bikes but now I'm supposed to believe that 28 spoke are enough on a 29" rim used for the same purpose?
Hey, you don't believe in boost? Burn the heretic!