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Calling all wheel nerds, normal nerds also welcome

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by englertracing, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. englertracing

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    So I've found all sorts of graphs about tension and lateral stiffness
    but how about spoke count on a like hub and rim?
    32 has 14% more spokes than 28, but I am certain that the wheel wont be 14% stiffer laterally.
    any numbers, graphs, theories?
     

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  2. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    I have 28 spoke carbon xc wheels. The difference in stiffness is noticeable (carbon, not spoke count, but I don't find the spoke count to be detrimental. Then again it is xc). Everything else I'm on is 32. Both my sets of carbon wheels gave bladed spokes (largely coincidence, not specifically my choice). I was listening to a podcast or maybe watching some redbull special about a WC racer and I recall them saying something about bladed spokes being more laterally compliant. But I have no way to quantify that.
     
  3. englertracing

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    I found this
    spoke count.png
     

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  4. ZHendo

    ZHendo Turbo Monkey

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    Another important consideration is lacing pattern...you can make a lower spoke count wheel stiffer (not the same as stronger...) by using fewer crosses. That's how a lot of companies are getting away with using fewer spokes on complete wheels to drop weight
     
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  5. jstuhlman

    jstuhlman We noticed.

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    i’ll take my 32h 3x and not look back, thanks.
     
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  6. Westy

    Westy the teste

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    What if you are throwing a massive whip?
     
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  7. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

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    superboost
     
  8. Happymtb.fr

    Happymtb.fr Monkey

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  9. slyfink

    slyfink Turbo Monkey

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    This is what Roger Musson wrote about spoke count in his book "Professional Guide to Wheel Building" (I have the 6th edition, not sure how many have come out since [edited to add: he's at 7 now.]):
    upload_2019-3-18_10-46-23.png
    source
     
    #9 -   Mar 18, 2019 at 10:48 AM
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019 at 10:52 AM
  10. Cerberus75

    Cerberus75 Monkey

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    I find you dont notice much difference if the wheel is built well. Until you get a stick in the spokes. You can loose a spoke and ride out with 32 count.
     
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  11. slyfink

    slyfink Turbo Monkey

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    this has been my experience as well.
     
  12. mykel

    mykel Turbo Monkey

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    Yup, soft taco a wheel.
    Remove from fork.
    Beat against ground to "true" it back up.
    Wrap broken (3) spokes around adjacent spokes
    Re-install wheel
    Ride - albeit slowly, out.

    32 FTW.
     
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  13. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

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    Oh, you've been to South Mountain too.
     
  14. johnbryanpeters

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    Been there, done that...
     
  15. slyfink

    slyfink Turbo Monkey

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  16. englertracing

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    I like the Idea of a 36h with dt aerolite
    but nobody is doing 36h anymore really, I mean 36h hadley hubs can be had for cheap... Flanges are narrow AF though and nobody makes a rim for that really.

    But really I was just curious about the theoretical comparison of the same hub and wheel design with
    36 spoke with something like DT revolution 2.0 - 1.5 - 2.0
    32 spoke with something like DT Competion Race with 2.0 - 1.6 - 2.0
    28 spoke with something like DT Competion with 2.0 - 1.8 - 2.0
     
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  17. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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  18. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

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    350g aluminum rims...what did people think would happen? lol....

    It's been discussed before, but a HUGE amount of stiffness comes from the rim itself. If anything, some of the carbon rims do allow you to go to lesser spoke counts, but a majority of this on high end bikes is to save weight and cost and look cool IMO, not to build a durable light and stiff wheelset. That's not the ultimate priority on a mass produced bike where 4 spokes less makes your bike lighter than the next brand.
     
  19. StiHacka

    StiHacka Compensating for something

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    My 36h asym crabon DH layup rim with CX Ray spokes and Hadley hub feels indestructible.
     
  20. englertracing

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    Lb rims?
     
  21. StiHacka

    StiHacka Compensating for something

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    Nextie.
     
  22. englertracing

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    I almost went with LB, hadleys 36h aerolites.
    looks like this set will be
    EX511, RF VAULT straight pull 28h, maybe aerocomp.
    The super wide large diameter straight pull flanges made me do it.
     
    #22 -   Mar 19, 2019 at 12:46 AM
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019 at 1:08 AM
  23. mykel

    mykel Turbo Monkey

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    I just went with 32 hole Onyx hubs, DT Comp spokes, DT brass nipples and Spank Vibrocore rims.
     
  24. Electric_City

    Electric_City The orangutans are loose!

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    Ughhh... Straight pull. No thanks.
     
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  25. englertracing

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    I know they arent really any better than j bend, but by no means any worse other than they are typically 28 and less.

    So im curious as to what your aversion to them stems from.
     
  26. Electric_City

    Electric_City The orangutans are loose!

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    Truing them. Unless you're using vice grips, there's a good chance that the whole spoke will turn with the nip. I've worked on some without issue. But when they spin, there's not really an easy way around it. My buddies Rovals were a bitch to true/tension. He was determined, so he gave it an hours worth of his time and said fuck it. It's a problem that doesn't occur with j-bend. I'm not bashing you Btw. It's just that if you can avoid them, I would recommend that to you. If not, don't worry about it much. Just let someone else tension them later on.
     
  27. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    bladed spokes at least give you an indication of the amount of twist.
     
  28. englertracing

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    Yes bladed spokes with a spoke holder
     
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  29. slyfink

    slyfink Turbo Monkey

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    solution looking for a problem?
     
  30. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    there's other reasons to run bladed spokes.
     
  31. William42

    William42 fork ways

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    So you can slice parts of yourself off if you accidentally touch the wheel during a crash?

    I get it for XC and Road, but I'm not convinced their valuable enough to be a positive on a more...exciting bike.
     
  32. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    yea, that comment wasn't intent to be "oh use bladed spokes for dh/enduro" just a general comment that there are reasons to run bladed beyond just being able to tell if you're getting spoke wind up. fwiw my enve m70's have bladed spokes, but that wasn't my decision
     
  33. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

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    Like when you need your wheels to be really really ridiculously good looking....
     
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  34. Happymtb.fr

    Happymtb.fr Monkey

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    Kind of so that you can invite those commenting on them to watch gladiator movies at your place...? :brows:
     
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  35. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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  36. StiHacka

    StiHacka Compensating for something

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    People who never built wheels with bladed spokes won't understand how awesome this feature is.
     
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  37. Cerberus75

    Cerberus75 Monkey

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    It does make it easy. So does a piece of tape on the spoke to watch windup.
     
  38. Lelandjt

    Lelandjt Turbo Monkey

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    They have wrench flats. I'll never build or own a round spoke again. The only downside is price and I love being able to turn the nipples just the right amount with zero spoke twist and the ease of holding them with a spoke holder. I'm working with Park to release a lower profile spoke wrench that lets the spoke holder sit closer to the nipple.
     
  39. Lelandjt

    Lelandjt Turbo Monkey

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    I just can't wrap my head around the industry's adoption of 28 spoke wheels. Look at a new bike and they're all 28s. Even 29" enduro. It's not like the rims are different. I had wide carbon 26" rims with 32 spokes on enduro bikes but now I'm supposed to believe that 28 spoke are enough on a 29" rim used for the same purpose?
     
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  40. Flo33

    Flo33 Monkey

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    Hey, you don't believe in boost? Burn the heretic!
     
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