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Calling all wheel nerds, normal nerds also welcome

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,559
AK
I just can't wrap my head around the industry's adoption of 28 spoke wheels. Look at a new bike and they're all 28s. Even 29" enduro. It's not like the rims are different. I had wide carbon 26" rims with 32 spokes on enduro bikes but now I'm supposed to believe that 28 spoke are enough on a 29" rim used for the same purpose?
Cost, weight savings, etc. Same reason a car doesn't come with a spare tire anymore.
 

dovbush66

Monkey
Aug 27, 2018
195
218
Ireland
well lads, had some issues with a front hub so I'm scrounging the second hand market for a wheel. Just want to double check with the nerds so I don't waste money.

ATM I'm on a mate's spare wheel that has a decent condition formula dhl-92 hub and sun ringle inferno rim. Are these hubs generally worth lacing a new rim to?

I also have an offer for an early 2010s yellow deemax wheel. Proprietary spokes scared me off but tubeless and the good condition is tempting.

These are local to me and are easy to get. I've an eye on some EX729/Hope builds over in the UK if all else fails.

Another is a DT swiss F550 32mm front build. EDIT: did a little bit of digging and the F550 rims are wider/lighter OE versions of DT5.1 rims, which are buttery trash according to the archives here.
 
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englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,573
1,069
La Verne
well lads, had some issues with a front hub so I'm scrounging the second hand market for a wheel. Just want to double check with the nerds so I don't waste money.

ATM I'm on a mate's spare wheel that has a decent condition formula dhl-92 hub and sun ringle inferno rim. Are these hubs generally worth lacing a new rim to?

I also have an offer for an early 2010s yellow deemax wheel. Proprietary spokes scared me off but tubeless and the good condition is tempting.

These are local to me and are easy to get. I've an eye on some EX729/Hope builds over in the UK if all else fails.

Another is a DT swiss F550 32mm front build. EDIT: did a little bit of digging and the F550 rims are wider/lighter OE versions of DT5.1 rims, which are buttery trash according to the archives here.
If the mavics deemax in question are based on the 823 rim, then they are strong.
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,573
1,069
La Verne
https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/rims/hybrid-e-bike/hx-491/#2
I found this....
in the depths of the DT swiss site hidden behind the evil hybrid and e bike catagory.
its basically a 471, with slightly more meat, and aimed squarely at electric dumbfuckery.
but its still lighter than a FR560!
here is the neat part
It comes in 36H drilling
meaning if you have a 36H hadley laying around you can build up a sweet wheel with 36 aero comps or whatever you like,
or the 29" people can have a wheel that is not flexing all over the place.
they also have a 30mm internal version,
the HX531 its 550g. Its lighter than the most likely overkill FR560 coming it at 595G
also available in 36H
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,573
1,069
La Verne
this rim takes an interesting approach.

I've got a hard on for rims where the spokes cross the center, extra brace angle
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,634
5,444
there's other reasons to run bladed spokes.
They cut through sticks really well, they also take the top off your knuckles when installing Cush Core, helps offset the weight gain.
With bladed spokes my wheelset with tyres and no cassette is 11pounds, I can really notice the weight reduction from the bladed spokes, hahaha!
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,190
media blackout
They cut through sticks really well, they also take the top off your knuckles when installing Cush Core, helps offset the weight gain.
With bladed spokes my wheelset with tyres and no cassette is 11pounds, I can really notice the weight reduction from the bladed spokes, hahaha!
Here we go again :rolleyes:
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,634
5,444
Here we go again :rolleyes:
Yeah you want the heavy bits on the outside, it gives you the momentum of a 29er but you are still accepted by the RM crowd.
I noticed my spokes have been contacting the cassette, must be because of the sideways flex from the bladed spokes, or maybe it is the lack of boost.....
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,634
5,444
Another nonsensical post by me, there are many on here.

They are just wheels, do what the professional wheel builders recommend, the E book I bought said 32 spoke, three cross with J bend spokes was a sure bet so I do that.
My Stan's rims are quite compliant and the spokes I have are butted over a very long length which should(in theory) help with fatigue life, when laced they sit nice and flat where the spokes intersect and the spokes don't wear little grooves in each other like my roundtard spokes did.
The CX-Ray still lists as the strongest of the Sapim spokes, I don't replace them very often and I' assume I'm a pretty shit wheel builder.
I think the full build ended up at around 1750g for 650b wheels which is okay for alloy rims.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,559
AK
The CX-Ray still lists as the strongest of the Sapim spokes, I don't replace them very often and I' assume I'm a pretty shit wheel builder.
That's because they are the most expensive and the ones they want people to buy. Sapim is full of shit. The other butted spokes are also cold forged.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,648
3,089
That's because they are the most expensive and the ones they want people to buy. Sapim is full of shit. The other butted spokes are also cold forged.
To be fair, they are fairly strong spokes for the weight. See:
Further advantage is that you can hold them to avoid twisting, which you would also get with round DD spokes with very thin middles sections. However, few people realize the spoke twisting on round spokes, nevertheless it is weakening the spoke and will lead to failures down the road.
 

Electric_City

Torture wrench
Apr 14, 2007
1,993
716
However, few people realize the spoke twisting on round spokes, nevertheless it is weakening the spoke and will lead to failures down the road.
You know that pinging that you hear when you inflate your tire after a truing/new build/tensioning? Or when you mount the wheel and take it for a spin? That noise is the spokes/nips straightening out. Spokes don't twist 3-4 times when building/truing. Maybe a quarter turn at the worst. Use spoke prep and avoid these issues when you tension your wheels in the off season.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,648
3,089
You know that pinging that you hear when you inflate your tire after a truing/new build/tensioning? Or when you mount the wheel and take it for a spin?
Never have that because after every round of truing I take the wheel out of the stand and release the windup. Takes longer to work on a wheel but I have minimal windup and don't damage the spokes. If you hear pinging while riding you know your spoke tension is off after that compared to when you trued the wheel.

Spokes don't twist 3-4 times when building/truing. Maybe a quarter turn at the worst.
For example Sapim Laser spokes (2.0-1.5-2.0 mm) will get damaged by windup. And from their weight these are the ones to compare to CX Rays. But I agree with you, for more reasonable spokes like 2.0-1.8-2.0 this will be less of an issue.

Use spoke prep and avoid these issues when you tension your wheels in the off season.
I use linseed oil when I build.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,559
AK
Use spoke prep and avoid these issues when you tension your wheels in the off season.
Use something to keep the spokes turning and provide a barrier for galvanic corrosion. Doing this, which you should be doing when building alum nipple carbon rims, everything works out fine. I just built a wheel a week ago for my endurpo bike and absolutely no issues with spokes winding up. That happens IME when they are dry and these days, you need something as a barrier (that is not conductive) anyway.

I do final truing with the tubeless tire mounted, tension drops significantly, so this is the final important step. After that, I don't have to touch it for years usually. It won't "loosen".

IME, different spokes don't really make a real difference, balancing out elasticity with all out strength, there's usually a wide range of what will work, the bigger issues come from using like 24 spokes or some stupid lacing pattern that's hip at the time.
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,573
1,069
La Verne
Another nonsensical post by me, there are many on here.

They are just wheels, do what the professional wheel builders recommend, the E book I bought said 32 spoke, three cross with J bend spokes was a sure bet so I do that.

The CX-Ray still lists as the strongest of the Sapim spokes,
Sapim lists the yield strength in Newtons/square mm

So,
If we do the pi radius squared to the 1.5mm cross section cx ray we get an area of 1.77 square mm. Sapim lists 1600n/sqmm
1.77sqmm x1600 gives us 2832n or 636lbs.

Now let's do a Sapim force
1.8mm diameter gives us an area of 2.01.
Sapim lists 1400n/sqmm for the force
2.01sqmm x 1400 gives us 2814n or 632lbs

This is impressive!
A 1.5mm spoke stiffer than a 1.8, I suspect this is material not the blading process

Now let's do a Sapim strong
2mm diameter gives us a whopping area if 3.14
Material strength if 1250n/sqmm
3.14x1250 gives us 3925n or 882lbs

Sheer mass makes for a stiffer spoke this time.

Last one
The cx sprint
1.8mm diameter 2.01 area
1450n
2.01 x 1430 =2874n or 646lbs

So the cx ray is not the strongest,
It's made of the strongest material. Less of it. Leaving it weaker than a "strong" and cx sprint
 
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jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,190
media blackout
Sapim lists the yield strength in Newtons/square mm

So,
If we do the pi radius squared to the 1.5mm cross section cx ray we get an area of 1.77 square mm. Sapim lists 1600n/sqmm
1.77sqmm x1600 gives us 2832n or 636lbs.

Now let's do a Sapim force
1.8mm diameter gives us an area of 2.01.
Sapim lists 1400n/sqmm for the force
2.01sqmm x 1400 gives us 2814n or 632lbs

This is impressive!
A 1.5mm spoke stiffer than a 1.8, I suspect this is material not the blading process

Now let's do a Sapim strong
2mm diameter gives us a whopping area if 3.14
Material strength if 1250n/sqmm
3.14x1250 gives us 3925n or 882lbs

Sheer mass makes for a stiffer spoke this time.

Last one
The cx sprint
1.8mm diameter 2.01 area
1450n
2.01 x 1430 =2874n or 646lbs

So the cx ray is not the strongest,
It's made of the strongest material. Less of it. Leaving it weaker than a "strong" and cx sprint
Whoa whoa time the fuck out we ain't doing math here chief
 

Cerberus75

Monkey
Feb 18, 2017
520
194
Never have that because after every round of truing I take the wheel out of the stand and release the windup. Takes longer to work on a wheel but I have minimal windup and don't damage the spokes. If you hear pinging while riding you know your spoke tension is off after that compared to when you trued the wheel.



For example Sapim Laser spokes (2.0-1.5-2.0 mm) will get damaged by windup. And from their weight these are the ones to compare to CX Rays. But I agree with you, for more reasonable spokes like 2.0-1.8-2.0 this will be less of an issue.



I use linseed oil when I build.

I do all this and put a piece of tape on the spoke. Easy to see if any windup is happening and you can back it off.
 

Electric_City

Torture wrench
Apr 14, 2007
1,993
716
Never have that because after every round of truing I take the wheel out of the stand and release the windup. Takes longer to work on a wheel but I have minimal windup and don't damage the spokes. If you hear pinging while riding you know your spoke tension is off after that compared to when you trued the wheel.



For example Sapim Laser spokes (2.0-1.5-2.0 mm) will get damaged by windup. And from their weight these are the ones to compare to CX Rays. But I agree with you, for more reasonable spokes like 2.0-1.8-2.0 this will be less of an issue.



I use linseed oil when I build.
The pinging happens after truing/tensioning the spokes and riding it for the first revolution of the wheel. That's the spokes unwinding, not losing tension. I've checked tension after doing this and there's no measurable difference.

Linseed oil is a good choice also.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,648
3,089
The pinging happens after truing/tensioning the spokes and riding it for the first revolution of the wheel. That's the spokes unwinding, not losing tension. I've checked tension after doing this and there's no measurable difference.
Interesting. I usually used a spoke tensiometer before and after releasing windup and the spoke tension seems to change. Not a lot and not for all spokes, but it is enough to notice. Maybe there is also some unthreading in the nippel and not only release of windup? :confused:
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,648
3,089
I couldn't agree more. I've seen them drop SIGNIFICANTLY after mounting and airing up the tires.
Does it matter? This is always the same, so you factor that in when adjusting the spoke tension when you build the wheel. Easier than to deal with truing with the tire on IMO.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,190
media blackout
The pinging happens after truing/tensioning the spokes and riding it for the first revolution of the wheel. That's the spokes unwinding, not losing tension. I've checked tension after doing this and there's no measurable difference.

Linseed oil is a good choice also.
You should be unwinding the spokes before riding the wheel.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,559
AK
Does it matter? This is always the same, so you factor that in when adjusting the spoke tension when you build the wheel. Easier than to deal with truing with the tire on IMO.
IME yes, as the drop with the tire installed/inflated is significant enough to cause you to be maxing out the nipples/tension before doing so, and then mounted, it's loose enough that it wouldn't be safe to ride. I think I counted 3-turns to proper tension after mounting.
 

jstuhlman

bagpipe wanker
Dec 3, 2009
16,627
12,918
Cackalacka du Nord
IME yes, as the drop with the tire installed/inflated is significant enough to cause you to be maxing out the nipples/tension before doing so, and then mounted, it's loose enough that it wouldn't be safe to ride. I think I counted 3-turns to proper tension after mounting.
!!!
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,559
AK
Holy cow, never seen it that extreme. Are your rims made out of cheese? :eek:
well, they are organic rims. I count "half turns" as full turns on my spokey, as in my fingers can only do half-turns at once, so probably 1.5 full turns.