Can 70% of America BE WRONG?
- Thread starter sanjuro
- Start date
-
- Tags
- religion is poison
More importantly, can the canaries on the view and/or that neanderthal bill o'reily ever really be something I should give a shlt about?
I think theres an important question to be answered here.
Is it really that wrong to not want a mosque there?
Personally I wouldnt mind that mosque, but I can understand how people are not happy with it given what happend there.
Not to say any group is better then the other, but I think practically it does not work to put two groups of two cultures so different together.
You see this all over the world in frontline wars, people with different cultural and political backgrounds do not mix well.
It may go well for a while, but give it time and things will start to get bad in a lot of cases.
People in Yugoslavia lived together in peace for a long time untill the Sovjet union fell apart and all of a sudden they were reminded about their differences in stead of sticking together against a common enemy.
This resulted in turning on eachother again as they did before. This was based mainly on religion.
These things used to be frontline issues but with current means of travel and globilization, the problems have shifted from being front line wars to going international and focussing more on religion.
Everywhere in the world where civilizations clash (yes this post is inspired by Sam Huntingtons words) things will turn ugly for at least a while, if not forever.
Given the nature of humans as a whole, I do not know if this problem can be solved in a civilized way.
Time will tell if people are mature enough to solve these problems, but right now I dont think they are.
Is it really that wrong to not want a mosque there?
Personally I wouldnt mind that mosque, but I can understand how people are not happy with it given what happend there.
Not to say any group is better then the other, but I think practically it does not work to put two groups of two cultures so different together.
You see this all over the world in frontline wars, people with different cultural and political backgrounds do not mix well.
It may go well for a while, but give it time and things will start to get bad in a lot of cases.
People in Yugoslavia lived together in peace for a long time untill the Sovjet union fell apart and all of a sudden they were reminded about their differences in stead of sticking together against a common enemy.
This resulted in turning on eachother again as they did before. This was based mainly on religion.
These things used to be frontline issues but with current means of travel and globilization, the problems have shifted from being front line wars to going international and focussing more on religion.
Everywhere in the world where civilizations clash (yes this post is inspired by Sam Huntingtons words) things will turn ugly for at least a while, if not forever.
Given the nature of humans as a whole, I do not know if this problem can be solved in a civilized way.
Time will tell if people are mature enough to solve these problems, but right now I dont think they are.
I saw O'Reily on the daily show. I was surprised by how sane he seemed to be. He was decently funny, and taking it as well as he gave it. He seemed far less nutso. And Stewart will go on his show.
Maybe it's cuz they are chicks.
Maybe it's cuz they are chicks.
My thoughts exactly.
I can understand why some people are bothered. But what bothers me is the double speak. Preach freedom of religion, as long as it's Christian based. I didn't want a WalMart near my house, but I didn't chain myself to a tree over it.
Which is what makes him even that much more of a prick for the all american dipshlt character he makes a living off of playing.
Same as Colbert? Only his nation KNOWS he's kidding.
You mean, like, say, two cultures who have lived happily side by side for 40 some years in this exact neighborhood, including the decade since 9/11. The only groups not happy about this are the xenophobes that aren't and won't be living side by side with anyone.
Or do you mean like when the Irish and Italians first immigrated to NYC?
I think he means like when the Native American Indians were encroaching on our original 13 colonies that we founded.
I do not mean a group of some people, Im talking cultures in general.
2 Very different cultures in a relatively small area will clash at some point.
Maybe not when theres a few Muslims in a predominantly western area, but when their numbers grow, **** will hit the fan.
In a democratic country you can not have 2 different cultures living and voting together and side by side without clashing.
What when Muslims grow in number so much that they rival Western inhabitants of said area?
What if they want things done differently? Its their right to vote so its their right to have it their way when they have enough votes.
Same thing goes the other way around, Muslims are NOT happy with the way the Western system works. They have been putting up with it because they were small in number. This will change when their numbers grow.
This is just the way any type or race of people works.
And ofcourse you knew this didnt count for the Irish, since they are from the same Western society as US citizens are.
Nice try though, but im not a racist or a xenophobe.
This is just the way humans of different cultures interact with eachother when the cultures are as different as they are in this case.
You don't know many Muslims, do you?
No, I brought that up because "Americans" made the exact same arguments about the Irish and Italians flooding into New York 150 years ago.
Last edited:
ok... question to raise some thought here.
There have been fundamentalist christians that have bombed abortion clinics in the past. Would people be as outraged if they tried to build a church near one of these sites?
There have been fundamentalist christians that have bombed abortion clinics in the past. Would people be as outraged if they tried to build a church near one of these sites?
I was born and raised in Holland. We have a population of 16.5million people in a country thats 41.528 km².
This is allmost the size of Switserland, a country that has 7 million people, or Denmark with 5 million people.
In our small country, stretching 3hours north to south or 2 hours east to west, we have 3 million immigrants. Please dont ask me if I "know any Muslims".
Holland is a country that is the definition of multicultural.
I have seen how different cultures live together and I can tell you weve had plenty of clashes in our short history with these immigrants.
I do not blame these immigrants for these problems. The same would have happend the other way around.
People of different cultures mix together like oil and water. And unless we can educate them out of being religious, this will never end.
Immigrants from another Western soceity, like Ireland or Italy are a whole different story...
Im not some short sighted racist, this is something that happens ALL over the world in ALL religions or cultures because its HUMAN nature.
The Dutch and the Belgians live peacefully together because they share the same views and IDs. They share a culture.
Only hours away people from different cultures living next to eachother have been murdering and raping eachothers countries because they have a different religion and therefor identity.
To love what you are, you must hate what you are not.
Ok, this whole America the mixing pot thing isn't working out everyone back to your respective countries of origin.
Or we could give different states to different peoples/cultures/religions. We've got 50 states this could work! Italians you've pretty much got dibbs on NJ, Jews need to decide on NY or Flordia, Mexican/Latinos I guess you can have AZ or NM. Are rednecks a culture? Cause they can have Texas.
I think we can make some progress here.
Yes send all US born muslims back to... THE US!
Im not offering any solutions, Im just stating the facts.
To know how to solve a "problem" you must first recognize and acknowledge it.
What people are doing with it right now obviously isnt working and there might not be a sollution at all.
You dont seem to understand the whole "dont shoot the messenger" thing, but Im not gonna keep appoligizing for stating facts about immigration problems between different cicvilizations.
There are plenty of good books on the subject and if you want to know more I suggest that you read some of them before you go and make funnies about Rednecks being a culture...
I dont remember treating you like a retard, so please dont go that way...
The real problem gentlemen is that the majority of Americans are just too fvcking lazy and driven by fear. It takes way more effort and thought to be accepting of other people's religion and cultural differences than it does to hate what you don't understand. Hate mongers like O'reilly and the rest of his FOX News Disciples of Doom are all too happy exploit this.
Agreed 99%.
And this is exactly the human nature I was talking about.
The only problem I have with your post is that it seems to imply that this is an American treat.
Hate and fear are every bit a part of human nature as love or hope are.
Only there are no "news" channels dedicated to love and hope.Maybe we could get Fox to start one.
Hustler TV?
Not even close to the same thing
thats very true.
and just because most people on RM are educated enough to be *almost* be rational, does not mean most people are or are willing abandon emotional arguments over rational arguments....
its a whole mindset change we are talking about, on rational analysis vs emotional response, which could well be innate to human nature, as kevin says, or could be an acquired attitude learnt at early age (or a mix of both).
i believe most of these things *could* be overcome with a more inclusive education starting at a very young age, but then again, you have certain traits you acquire at home which are really hard to get rid of, in spite of what you could have been taught at school, and then you have people who happen to be dumb as a rock......
civilizations clashing with each other are very complex issues, and pretending there are no substantial differences or tendencies among civilizations for the sake of political correctness aint very intellectually honest.
The United States is a country of 300 million people. 299 million of them are immigrants.
Look, I love Holland. I also love the Dutch. But that statement is ridiculous. The only thing that makes Holland look like anything less than perfectly homogeneous is that it's located next to Sweden and Norway.
That cultural, racial, religious and political homogeneity is what makes any immigrant stand out even more, and exacerbates challenges of integration and assimilation that Holland is currently having.
I wasn't calling you racist, and the xenophobes I was referring to are the ones angrily screaming the the Muslims are on a path to take over the country. Oh wait, that was you.
It's poetic, but you're out of your ****ing mind if you believe that. That's some seriously sociopathic **** right there.
Hey, this land has always been ours. Those natives were quick to change their minds after we taught them about real religion and kindly discussed over a few fire-waters that their land was actually small patches of outcroppings scattered throughout.
Again shooting the messenger.
299 million are immigrants? Sure, how many of those are from non Western civilizations? And how many of those are not conformed to Western soceity.
And how many of those are from a cultural background that clashes as bad with Western civilization as the Islamic cultural background does?
Its nice that you talk numbers, but the numbers dont mean a thing if you dont look at what they really are.
Holland might be homogenous from your point view, but its not to the majority of the Dutch people these days because their western identity is being threatend.
This is why people are voting for right extremists and we have a retard racist in our goverment freshly choosen two months or so ago.
You say you love the Dutch? I despise them for being as ignorant as every Bush voting Yank was.
Political homogeneity?
We have about 12 political partys that entered our last election.
These partys go from far left wing to allmost extreme right winged.
After our recent ellection we had 2 months before a coalition was formed between the chosen partys because political opinions were to different from one party to the other to even agree on a goverment at all.
One of the partys with most votes is now in our goverment but has agreed to stay in the background untill a point comes up with which they dont agree. (because the other partys dont want them in their coallition) And they have made clear that they will do anything to rid Holland of Islam because this is the main point on their agenda.
So much for homogeneity...
Please explain to me again where I was screaming Muslims are taking over the country? I think theres a small "nuance" in what I said.
Or better yet, explain to me how what I said was wrong? Surely you have thought about it and youre not talking from a shallow emotion?
My poetic quote is something that is well known in psychology and is of great importance to understand why humanity has been going to war since the beginning of times.
Get educated and stop insulting me.
Last edited:
Woha there fella.
No disrespect I was just being ironic and pointing out (in a fairly obtuse way) that the only solution is the obvious one, learn to get along.
Edit: Kevin after reading your last post I have to say, lay off the caffeine, it's bad for your blood pressure.
Last edited:
Ah, i thought you were actually mocking my superb wisdom and power there!
Sorry bout that.
And edit:
3 Cans of monster
Last edited:
A mosque at ground zero?! Don't they know how many christians will hate that. What about when people of non-christian faith say silent prayers as they walk past ground zero? Its better imo, to not let anyone who has dark skin near the place, so not to insult the victims of 9/11. I mean they could have Korans in their pockets! 
That's an oft-used defense on Fox news. "Hey, I'm just stating the facts. Not my opinions. You can't get angry at me about that. I'm just letting people draw their own conclusions." Nevermind that the "facts" are at best carefully selected to lead idiots to a certain conclusion, and at worst consist of "Muslims are completely different than Westerners and are doomed to clash violently with them." Yeah, it's just a message. Don't shoot the messenger.
My point is that when the Irish first arrived on US shores, they were greeted just as violently at Arabs, Persians, and Pakistanis now are. "Decent" Americans declared that these unwashed hordes could never assimilate and were prone to violence and crime. It seemed an impossible divide at the time. Now it's laughable to call Catholics so different that assimilation is impossible. We will go through the same cycles with Middle Eastern immigrants, Latin immigrants, Asian immigrants... our culture and society WILL change as a result, just as it has with every other wave of immigration.
I think we're starting to agree. The more people live in a homogeneous world, the more easily threatened they are threatened by change. Thus American mid-westerners freaking out by a mosque in NYC, while New Yorkers have happily enjoyed that community there for decades.
Note it's irrelevent how much of an actual threat the change is, only how different it seems.
That's a function of your political system, not a massive spread of politic views.
Right here:
Sorry, this is far from something that is "well-known in psychology." This is you taking unsupported opinion as fact, because someone said it eloquently. Sure, people inherently fear cultures that are different and they don't yet understand. People DON'T inherently hate, and they certainly don't need to hate in order to love themselves or vice versa.
The reality is Muslims have been immigrating into the Western world for decades, and assimilating just fine. They have not been quietly suffering and waiting until their numbers grow to suddenly make changes. You are projecting your experiences of Holland's recent challenges with large communities of freshly immigrated Muslim fundamentalists, onto a country much more comfortable with diversity clashing with a community that is moderate and already assimilated. This is not the impossible, intractible, inevitably bloody conflict you make it out to be. It's the close-minded, homogeneous xenophobic Dutch you wrote of thinking they know what's best for 2nd generation Pakistanis in London.
Haha, you couldn't have known the irony here, but this is pretty funny. Meet this guy. You just told his son to get educated on the psychology of hate.
Kind of a late reaction, forgot all about the topic but another topic reminded me about this one...
I dont even know his opinion on the subject but I assume its the same as yours, or rather, your opinion is the same as his...
Fairly nice arguing with you anyway but please leave the "haha's" and Fox news comparrisons out of this. Ill try to do so as well
Im not here for an internet fight and Im not claiming that what I say is the only possible truth, if anything, Im here to learn.
No doubt that your father is a very smart man and an expert on the subject. This does not mean that he is allways right about everything, and it certainly doesnt mean you are.That's an oft-used defense on Fox news. "Hey, I'm just stating the facts. Not my opinions. You can't get angry at me about that. I'm just letting people draw their own conclusions." Nevermind that the "facts" are at best carefully selected to lead idiots to a certain conclusion, and at worst consist of "Muslims are completely different than Westerners and are doomed to clash violently with them." Yeah, it's just a message. Don't shoot the messenger.
I know better then to feel offended by your Fox news accusations. In no way do I carefully select my news sources, I look at a lot of different news sources and I look at them as objectively as I can.
I also draw a good deal of personal experiance. Ive been travelling a good part of the world in the last 6 or so years and Ive talked to lots of people from lots of different cultures.
Im not merely basing my opinion on some piece of trash Fox news station...
My point is that when the Irish first arrived on US shores, they were greeted just as violently at Arabs, Persians, and Pakistanis now are. "Decent" Americans declared that these unwashed hordes could never assimilate and were prone to violence and crime. It seemed an impossible divide at the time. Now it's laughable to call Catholics so different that assimilation is impossible. We will go through the same cycles with Middle Eastern immigrants, Latin immigrants, Asian immigrants... our culture and society WILL change as a result, just as it has with every other wave of immigration.
And my point is that you can not compare the difference beween Muslim and Judeo Christian religion with other religions.
Latin Immigrants have adapted to Judeo Christianity a long time ago.
Asian immigrants dont share a single religion, most of Asia is Islamic, the rest of the religion do not have the same assertiveness against other religions like Christianity or Islam have.
Our (western) culture and society have indeed been changing, but it has also become quite obvious that were experiancing some clashes becase of this. As you said in the next part, people are afraid to lose their identity.
I think we're starting to agree. The more people live in a homogeneous world, the more easily threatened they are threatened by change. Thus American mid-westerners freaking out by a mosque in NYC, while New Yorkers have happily enjoyed that community there for decades.
That said, global political changes can change local situations over short periods of time.
Walking down the street in New York or any other place in the world, wearing a Muslim scarf or Hijab is not the same as it was before 9/11.
Note it's irrelevent how much of an actual threat the change is, only how different it seems.
Exactly, people fail to think rationally as they have allways done, and maybe allways will.
That's a function of your political system, not a massive spread of politic views.
Holland is not like the USA. Our political partys vary from tree hugging hippys to outright extremists.
Spread of political views is about as wide as you can imagine.
Right here:
Sorry, this is far from something that is "well-known in psychology." This is you taking unsupported opinion as fact, because someone said it eloquently. Sure, people inherently fear cultures that are different and they don't yet understand. People DON'T inherently hate, and they certainly don't need to hate in order to love themselves or vice versa.
Im not saying every individual has to hate in order to love himself. Im saying a group of people, wether this is a nation or a certain religious group, have a stronger connection with eachother if they share a common enemy.
We have seen this in numerous cases in post cold war politics. A prime example, as I said before is former Yugoslavia. Where people turned on eachother in a bloody fashion after the Sovjet Union fell apart.
The multiple civilizations within the country lost a common enemy that kept them together in peace for decades.
When they had no common enemy they started focussing on their differences as a people again and it wasnt pretty.
The reality is Muslims have been immigrating into the Western world for decades, and assimilating just fine. They have not been quietly suffering and waiting until their numbers grow to suddenly make changes. You are projecting your experiences of Holland's recent challenges with large communities of freshly immigrated Muslim fundamentalists, onto a country much more comfortable with diversity clashing with a community that is moderate and already assimilated. This is not the impossible, intractible, inevitably bloody conflict you make it out to be. It's the close-minded, homogeneous xenophobic Dutch you wrote of thinking they know what's best for 2nd generation Pakistanis in London.
I never said they have been waiting quietly and suffering, I merely stated that in a democratic political system, they will have a bigger voice as their numbers grow and that this could clash with the traditional values of a country.
Ofcourse this will be less of a problem when the new group assimilates with the native group. Can I even call US citizens native?
Assimilation will depend on how global political and local situations develop.
Right now, you look at the glass half full, saying everything is going great.
Im looking at the glass and im thinking the glass is only filled 1/4th. Theres a guy next to it with a can of milk, trying to fill it up, but hes standing on a boat and theres some bad weather.
Now this weather is not the **** storm Fox news claims it to be, but its not a sunny day on a flat ocean either.
Haha, you couldn't have known the irony here, but this is pretty funny. Meet this guy. You just told his son to get educated on the psychology of hate.
I dont even know his opinion on the subject but I assume its the same as yours, or rather, your opinion is the same as his...
Fairly nice arguing with you anyway but please leave the "haha's" and Fox news comparrisons out of this. Ill try to do so as well
Im not here for an internet fight and Im not claiming that what I say is the only possible truth, if anything, Im here to learn.