[saruti]

hi all

after years in this sport, I come to understand that not all suspensions feel "great"...
I hope you will understand what I mean.
(not talking about the regular riders that cant feel the different between a bad\good suspension)
well, for an example, (and I'm talking about going downhill. pedaling for me is a matter of shape. I can pedal any bike up the hill.)
lets take my YETI SB6C. compare to a friends NOMAD V3.
head to head.
I can say that the NOMAD suspension is just amazing.
I can tweak my YETI rear end float DHX 2 all day. and I really know how to setup my suspension.
but, the NOMAD is just great no matter what you do. and with any rear shock.

and that bring me to some questions...
do you think\know that any rear end can get to feel amazing with the right setup? (I think not. but please correct me)
do the PROs care about the feel of the bike as much as we do?
do you think that maybe they just get to something "nice" and go race?

 

[englertracing]

Theres a few things at work here.

First the X2 is a gimmick.
Ill lay my case
The twin tube design was heavily implemented by ohlins in road racing, where the shaft velocities are low, and the only high ones are potholes. Having the external low speed adjusters and external high speed adjusters is good in this application as the high speed sets the pressure at which the damper will blow off when they hit a pothole. The larger units have or had shimstacks that either lift off the seat via the high speed spring, or have an edge loaded shim to bolster the shim stacks cracking pressure via the high speed adjuster

Ohlins, doesnt use a FULL ttx design, but rather a hybrid of a decarbon and a twin tube on their own offroad shocks.
Then in comes cane creek.
they licence the ttx system, but does it look like the ohlins found standard on a specalized?
NO
its a twin tube with poppet style high speeds.
putting a rim loaded or blow off type shim stack takes up a bit of room
see the size of the bridge on the ohlins shock, its pretty big and only has the HSC adjuster in it.
then comes fox, another twin tube with poppet style high speeds........
well a poppet is not a shim,
a shim has no preload unless on a dished piston.... which nobody uses offroad
the problem with a ccdb and x2 is that you cant get enough low speed from them without cranking the high speed adjuster down,
preloaidng the hs adjuster makes for a harsh feel.
so your stuck with either
no low speed and plush mid-high with no real HIGH speed dampening
or
Some low speed dampening Harsh mid-high and no real HIGH speed dampening
but its high tech
but its FACTORY,
but its the best fox has to offer!!
but but but but.
nope,
all your getting is an adjustable HIGH speed rebound.
what value does that bring YOU!
well unless you routinely gain and loose hundred lbs and need a massive spring rate and rebound change then about nothing
again it benefits fox
No need to sell an aftermarket or even oem variations of the shock. You know the Soft Medium and Firm tunes, that should be correlated to a frames leverage ratio and your weight, and speed...
One size fits all, a manufacturers dream,
just tell them that its so sophisticated that everyone needs the same one.

I started looking to see if anyone revalved them, wanted to do it myself since I always have serviced my own dampers for moto, bike, race cars, for myself and others. Came across avalanche putting their piston in adding a rebound stack, and a softer "mid valve" stack which lets you crank the HS adjusters down, allowing the damper to have a reasonable amount of low speed, But when you hit something hard the MV shims allow flow, and at higher speeds the poppets open. It seems to work well enough. But I cant help but think that softening the stock MV arrangement by removing most shims (fox shows a soft tune on the parts schematics but does not offer it for sale) id go at least that soft. and run the high speed adjuster down to 8 from full in. It should work, very well actually, creating a hybrid twin tube.



Now,
what makes frames feel like shit.
#1 pedal kickback
#2 pedal kickback
#3 pedal kickback
#4 fucked up leverage ratio curves
#5 rusty bearings from jackasses pressure washing their bikes weekly, and telling people who advise them not to do that that pros do it, without realizing pros get their shit serviced monthly or less, and new frames every year, and they themselves do no servicing of any kind and ride the same bike for years.
#6 braking where you souldnt
#7 lots of brake rise or anti-rise
numberless, tire pressure, tire casing, rear chain stay length, fork setup

your anti squat that stabilizes your chassis while climbing, you know your initial rearward suspension travel, well
that rearward travel also pulls on the chain when suspension is activated........
so your feeling the impact to the suspension, and then the suspension kicking it into your pedals...
feels like doody........
baby D front sprockets magnify the issue.

disclaimer these opinions may be back by facts or just my imagination

 

[Da Peach]

I thought the N3 was unrideable?

 

[englertracing]

I think you mean "unrideabru"

 

[Da Peach]

I think you mean "unrideabru"

I stand corrected

 

[kidwoo]

can any bike suspension feel great ?

Not if it's on a V3 nomad

 

[Jm_]

Theres a few things at work here.

First the X2 is a gimmick.
Ill lay my case
The twin tube design was heavily implemented by ohlins in road racing, where the shaft velocities are low, and the only high ones are potholes. Having the external low speed adjusters and external high speed adjusters is good in this application as the high speed sets the pressure at which the damper will blow off when they hit a pothole. The larger units have or had shimstacks that either lift off the seat via the high speed spring, or have an edge loaded shim to bolster the shim stacks cracking pressure via the high speed adjuster

Ohlins, doesnt use a FULL ttx design, but rather a hybrid of a decarbon and a twin tube on their own offroad shocks.
Then in comes cane creek.
they licence the ttx system, but does it look like the ohlins found standard on a specalized?
NO
its a twin tube with poppet style high speeds.
putting a rim loaded or blow off type shim stack takes up a bit of room
see the size of the bridge on the ohlins shock, its pretty big and only has the HSC adjuster in it.
then comes fox, another twin tube with poppet style high speeds........
well a poppet is not a shim,
a shim has no preload unless on a dished piston.... which nobody uses offroad
the problem with a ccdb and x2 is that you cant get enough low speed from them without cranking the high speed adjuster down,
preloaidng the hs adjuster makes for a harsh feel.
so your stuck with either
no low speed and plush mid-high with no real HIGH speed dampening
or
Some low speed dampening Harsh mid-high and no real HIGH speed dampening
but its high tech
but its FACTORY,
but its the best fox has to offer!!
but but but but.
nope,
all your getting is an adjustable HIGH speed rebound.
what value does that bring YOU!
well unless you routinely gain and loose hundred lbs and need a massive spring rate and rebound change then about nothing
again it benefits fox
No need to sell an aftermarket or even oem variations of the shock. You know the Soft Medium and Firm tunes, that should be correlated to a frames leverage ratio and your weight, and speed...
One size fits all, a manufacturers dream,
just tell them that its so sophisticated that everyone needs the same one.

I started looking to see if anyone revalved them, wanted to do it myself since I always have serviced my own dampers for moto, bike, race cars, for myself and others. Came across avalanche putting their piston in adding a rebound stack, and a softer "mid valve" stack which lets you crank the HS adjusters down, allowing the damper to have a reasonable amount of low speed, But when you hit something hard the MV shims allow flow, and at higher speeds the poppets open. It seems to work well enough. But I cant help but think that softening the stock MV arrangement by removing most shims (fox shows a soft tune on the parts schematics but does not offer it for sale) id go at least that soft. and run the high speed adjuster down to 8 from full in. It should work, very well actually, creating a hybrid twin tube.



Now,
what makes frames feel like shit.
#1 pedal kickback
#2 pedal kickback
#3 pedal kickback
#4 fucked up leverage ratio curves
#5 rusty bearings from jackasses pressure washing their bikes weekly, and telling people who advise them not to do that that pros do it, without realizing pros get their shit serviced monthly or less, and new frames every year, and they themselves do no servicing of any kind and ride the same bike for years.
#6 braking where you souldnt
#7 lots of brake rise or anti-rise
numberless, tire pressure, tire casing, rear chain stay length, fork setup

your anti squat that stabilizes your chassis while climbing, you know your initial rearward suspension travel, well
that rearward travel also pulls on the chain when suspension is activated........
so your feeling the impact to the suspension, and then the suspension kicking it into your pedals...
feels like doody........
baby D front sprockets magnify the issue.

disclaimer these opinions may be back by facts or just my imagination

Was going to say this with less words. Manufactures may nail the damping rates relative to the leverage and what the OEMs provide, or they may be way off. It’s all over the place IME. OEM tunes suck and generally they are restrictive so we end up running little LSC and just deal with blowing through the travel. I don’t feel ~100% AS kicks back, in fact my first race on it compared to the same travel low-AS bike was a revelation for suspension, but like any other bike, they may screw up the damping rates and the low-compression tunes were a mistake from the chassis stability point of view. Bikes like the old high pivot stuff I had that broke traction uphill on loose terrain due to “stiffening” were horrible and pedaling while absorbing bumps was not a good experience. Also, people are just starting to figure out that plush doesn't=control.

Cool shocks seem to fix a lot, if you can at all take one, dump that air shit. These days, I just add in the cost of getting a custom tune on the shock, much less chance of being disappointed, and I make sure I can run a coil.

 

[Sandwich]

and that bring me to some questions...
do you think\know that any rear end can get to feel amazing with the right setup? (I think not. but please correct me)
do the PROs care about the feel of the bike as much as we do?
do you think that maybe they just get to something "nice" and go race?

You can get most bikes to feel good with a great setup. You can get a great bike to feel good with a mediocre setup. You can get a great bike to feel poor with a poor setup. You can get a mediocre bike to feel poor with a mediocre setup. IMO, great frame design is objective and only really rises above when paired with a great shock. Poor frame design can largely be compensated with a great shock that is carefully tuned for the rider's preferences and the frames deficiencies.

That being said, the elephant in the room is that *most* riders suck and generally don't know what they want, whether they have the best or the worst. Some people just don't get along with the bike that they are on whether it is objectively a fine bike or not. One of my favorite bikes was a cannondale that had a falling rate and single pivot. It worked well but was objectively a bad design. I had a custom tuned shock on it that made the bike ride well and I loved it anyways. That sounds like what's happening with your nomad. It's a bad design, but it works for you so you like it. The opposite happened with my Evil. It was objectively a good design, but I hated riding it. The shock was poorly tuned and I could never get it to feel right- it blew through the first third of travel and then ramped up too hard to get 100% travel. Everyone else on the planet loved that bike.

As for pros, I think most great riders are great on anything, but the people winning world cups are fantastic riders that are sensitive to their setups and the combo of the two is what wins. I don't think it's coincidence that gwin switched to intense and has been off his game. Likewise, I don't think it's coincidence that Bruni has been relatively consistent for a long time on basically the same bike.

 

[jonKranked]

reminder here: "feeling great" is subjective, and isn't always synonymous with being fast.

 

[Jm_]

You can get most bikes to feel good with a great setup. You can get a great bike to feel good with a mediocre setup. You can get a great bike to feel poor with a poor setup. You can get a mediocre bike to feel poor with a mediocre setup. IMO, great frame design is objective and only really rises above when paired with a great shock. Poor frame design can largely be compensated with a great shock that is carefully tuned for the rider's preferences and the frames deficiencies.

That being said, the elephant in the room is that *most* riders suck and generally don't know what they want, whether they have the best or the worst. Some people just don't get along with the bike that they are on whether it is objectively a fine bike or not. One of my favorite bikes was a cannondale that had a falling rate and single pivot. It worked well but was objectively a bad design. I had a custom tuned shock on it that made the bike ride well and I loved it anyways. That sounds like what's happening with your nomad. It's a bad design, but it works for you so you like it. The opposite happened with my Evil. It was objectively a good design, but I hated riding it. The shock was poorly tuned and I could never get it to feel right- it blew through the first third of travel and then ramped up too hard to get 100% travel. Everyone else on the planet loved that bike.

As for pros, I think most great riders are great on anything, but the people winning world cups are fantastic riders that are sensitive to their setups and the combo of the two is what wins. I don't think it's coincidence that gwin switched to intense and has been off his game. Likewise, I don't think it's coincidence that Bruni has been relatively consistent for a long time on basically the same bike.

Short version: Most people have no F-ing clue what "good support" is...

 

[Sandwich]

Theres a few things at work here.

First the X2 is a gimmick.
Ill lay my case
The twin tube design was heavily implemented by ohlins in road racing, where the shaft velocities are low, and the only high ones are potholes. Having the external low speed adjusters and external high speed adjusters is good in this application as the high speed sets the pressure at which the damper will blow off when they hit a pothole. The larger units have or had shimstacks that either lift off the seat via the high speed spring, or have an edge loaded shim to bolster the shim stacks cracking pressure via the high speed adjuster

Ohlins, doesnt use a FULL ttx design, but rather a hybrid of a decarbon and a twin tube on their own offroad shocks.
Then in comes cane creek.
they licence the ttx system, but does it look like the ohlins found standard on a specalized?
NO
its a twin tube with poppet style high speeds.
putting a rim loaded or blow off type shim stack takes up a bit of room
see the size of the bridge on the ohlins shock, its pretty big and only has the HSC adjuster in it.
then comes fox, another twin tube with poppet style high speeds........
well a poppet is not a shim,
a shim has no preload unless on a dished piston.... which nobody uses offroad
the problem with a ccdb and x2 is that you cant get enough low speed from them without cranking the high speed adjuster down,
preloaidng the hs adjuster makes for a harsh feel.
so your stuck with either
no low speed and plush mid-high with no real HIGH speed dampening
or
Some low speed dampening Harsh mid-high and no real HIGH speed dampening
but its high tech
but its FACTORY,
but its the best fox has to offer!!
but but but but.
nope,
all your getting is an adjustable HIGH speed rebound.
what value does that bring YOU!
well unless you routinely gain and loose hundred lbs and need a massive spring rate and rebound change then about nothing
again it benefits fox
No need to sell an aftermarket or even oem variations of the shock. You know the Soft Medium and Firm tunes, that should be correlated to a frames leverage ratio and your weight, and speed...
One size fits all, a manufacturers dream,
just tell them that its so sophisticated that everyone needs the same one.

I started looking to see if anyone revalved them, wanted to do it myself since I always have serviced my own dampers for moto, bike, race cars, for myself and others. Came across avalanche putting their piston in adding a rebound stack, and a softer "mid valve" stack which lets you crank the HS adjusters down, allowing the damper to have a reasonable amount of low speed, But when you hit something hard the MV shims allow flow, and at higher speeds the poppets open. It seems to work well enough. But I cant help but think that softening the stock MV arrangement by removing most shims (fox shows a soft tune on the parts schematics but does not offer it for sale) id go at least that soft. and run the high speed adjuster down to 8 from full in. It should work, very well actually, creating a hybrid twin tube.



Now,
what makes frames feel like shit.
#1 pedal kickback
#2 pedal kickback
#3 pedal kickback
#4 fucked up leverage ratio curves
#5 rusty bearings from jackasses pressure washing their bikes weekly, and telling people who advise them not to do that that pros do it, without realizing pros get their shit serviced monthly or less, and new frames every year, and they themselves do no servicing of any kind and ride the same bike for years.
#6 braking where you souldnt
#7 lots of brake rise or anti-rise
numberless, tire pressure, tire casing, rear chain stay length, fork setup

your anti squat that stabilizes your chassis while climbing, you know your initial rearward suspension travel, well
that rearward travel also pulls on the chain when suspension is activated........
so your feeling the impact to the suspension, and then the suspension kicking it into your pedals...
feels like doody........
baby D front sprockets magnify the issue.

disclaimer these opinions may be back by facts or just my imagination

Regardless of the reality of what you say regarding twin tube shocks, 90% of riders would be better off on a shock that is either carefully tuned to their frame, or they can re-tune to their frame to suit their needs. Most manufacturers can't even figure out how to make a decent leverage rate, let alone spec and tune a shock to fit that leverage rate to get optimum performance. I'd rather slap a generic twin tube on a frame that I can tune "inferiorly" to suit it than a shimstack shock that doesn't work on the frame I ride because the manufacturer decided I should just "trust" them.

1-3 I refuse to believe that pedal feedback is a real thing that people should be concerned about. My preference is janky-ass mid-high single pivots and I still have yet to feel the dreaded pedal feedback that is totally ruining my ride and harshing my gnurr. If you're deep in your travel, you're probably going fast and that means the freehub is going to compensate for chain tug at the final third of your suspension. If you're in the first two thirds, your suspension designer hopefully isn't retarded and has your bike with ~100% AS and that means you have largely the same pedal feedback on a pivot or an orange. It's really only the first third and last third where pedal feedback comes in, and again, you're either past it in sag or before it prior to bottom out. If you're bottoming out your suspension on tricky climbs, then you need to reconsider your spring rate.

7 I think what you're saying is that you prefer a neutral (~100% Anti-rise) suspension feel, and I agree. Too little brake squat pitches you over the front, and I have learned to appreciate having considerable brake squat, helping the geometry stay composed, as you shoot into a steep corner. The 50%/floater bikes are best for dragging the brakes through an upright corner so you don't tear your spandex.

 

[kidwoo]

1-3 I refuse to believe that pedal feedback is a real thing that people should be concerned about. My preference is janky-ass mid-high single pivots

Yep. You definitely don't notice it then.

I've been about tossed off of two bikes in particular trying to pedal up short uphill compressions. It's definitely a thing.

 

[Sandwich]

the Norco?

 

[kidwoo]

the Norco?

No. Bullit style frames (yeti ass7 or whatever it was called), and the first gen dw turner 5spot. The struggle is real.

I imagine under the right circumstances that norco I had would do similar but it had a leverage curve worth a damn that made it much less likely to happen, shooting through the end of the travel.

 

[englertracing]

Regardless of the reality of what you say regarding twin tube shocks, 90% of riders would be better off on a shock that is either carefully tuned to their frame, or they can re-tune to their frame to suit their needs. Most manufacturers can't even figure out how to make a decent leverage rate, let alone spec and tune a shock to fit that leverage rate to get optimum performance. I'd rather slap a generic twin tube on a frame that I can tune "inferiorly" to suit it than a shimstack shock that doesn't work on the frame I ride because the manufacturer decided I should just "trust" them.

.

The only thing your getting out of the X2 is that the HSR is adjustable..... and with that comes compromised low and high speed compression. BY FAR NOT A FAIR TRADE OFF

1-3 I refuse to believe that pedal feedback is a real thing that people should be concerned about. My preference is janky-ass mid-high single pivots and I still have yet to feel the dreaded pedal feedback that is totally ruining my ride and harshing my gnurr. If you're deep in your travel, you're probably going fast and that means the freehub is going to compensate for chain tug at the final third of your suspension. If you're in the first two thirds, your suspension designer hopefully isn't retarded and has your bike with ~100% AS and that means you have largely the same pedal feedback on a pivot or an orange. It's really only the first third and last third where pedal feedback comes in, and again, you're either past it in sag or before it prior to bottom out. If you're bottoming out your suspension on tricky climbs, then you need to reconsider your spring rate.

SO, on my super awsome DW link pivots,
coming down something similar to stairs, approaching a 180 degree turn that is not quite a switch back. Braking and chunk, the bike feels its worst.....
so in this particular corner I am always in a low gear as there is a very short flat, another turn then a quick climb after.
I always pinned the particular shit feel through this section as
1 meh this is a trail bike not a dh bike
2 that shit is pretty chunky
3 pedal kick back, because my front foot feels like its being wacked pretty hard right as the suspension moves or doesnt, or is it that since my foot wont move up the suspension doesn't move up much either?
in either case it feels sort of like a hard tail here.....

So, low wheel speed as in braking
suspension rear near top out, as in braking down a relatively steep section towards a corner.
low gear as in prepared for corner, tight corner, climb
there could be some interaction from the anti rise as well but i'm not positive Ill have to think about it more, perhaps some "micropacking" - i just invented that btw....

7 I think what you're saying is that you prefer a neutral (~100% Anti-rise) suspension feel, and I agree. Too little brake squat pitches you over the front, and I have learned to appreciate having considerable brake squat, helping the geometry stay composed, as you shoot into a steep corner. The 50%/floater bikes are best for dragging the brakes through an upright corner so you don't tear your spandex.

I do prefer 100% at least in theory
I mean brake jack is hell nobody wants brake rise
brake anti rise also has a cycling issue at least in theory it goes like this,
brake grips, produces torque about the instant center, "rises", which unloads the tire, looses grip, drops, regains grip starts over. Its not really that pronounced, and in reality I feel the anti rise basically pulls the bike slightly into the rear travel where its firmer than it would normally be and just has a less plush feel on entry or "micropacking" tm

 

[shirk007]

No. Bullit style frames (yeti ass7 or whatever it was called), and the first gen dw turner 5spot. The struggle is real.

I imagine under the right circumstances that norco I had would do similar but it had a leverage curve worth a damn that made it much less likely to happen, shooting through the end of the travel.

Nobody is making a bike these days that is as horrible as the old Bullits. The Bullit anti-squat started at about 145% and climbs to 200%. The Turner 5spot dw has a sideways S shape to it, starts about 160% and falls to a low point of 140% then rises again deeper in the travel and finally falling off again at bottom out. That late stroke rise is what you're likely feeling.

Most everything on the market these days has fallen into a range of 80% to 150% with a falling rate as you progress into the travel. The Evil's or a Scott Ransom would be bikes you could find today that have "high" anti-squat rates, but these are still not comparable to the old rising rate single pivots of way back in the day.

 

[kidwoo]

Nobody is making a bike these days that is as horrible as the old Bullits.

https://www.orangebikes.co.uk/


You don't need to prove to me you also have the linkage program. I know.

Single front rings have saved mountainbiking. More than any dw babble or goofy AS curve ever did.

Sandwich brought up janky high single pivots so that's what I mentioned. And included the 5spot because it's obviously not unique to bullits. Pedal kickback exists.

 

[slimshady]

Single front rings have saved mountainbiking. More than any dw babble or goofy AS curve ever did.

The funny part about this is DW himself said the three front rings were a blessing back in the day, since the varying chainline meant there were different AS and AR values, which -again, according to him- were benfical for pedaling uphill or downhill.

 

[shirk007]

https://www.orangebikes.co.uk/


You don't need to prove to me you also have the linkage program. I know.

Single front rings have saved mountainbiking. More than any dw babble or goofy AS curve ever did.

Sandwich brought up janky high single pivots so that's what I mentioned. And included the 5spot because it's obviously not unique to bullits. Pedal kickback exists.

Fuck, I though Orange got their shit together and dropped the main pivot down inline with the chainring.

You won't like mine frames, mine have a bit more anti-squat than the Evil's, but it's falling rate so it still drops well below the silly 5spot as you get deep in the travel. Compared to riding a hardtail it still feels like a couch, I like the frames to "stand up" under power and not sink into it's travel.

 

[englertracing]

Fuck, I though Orange got their shit together and dropped the main pivot down inline with the chainring.

You won't like mine frames, mine have a bit more anti-squat than the Evil's, but it's falling rate so it still drops well below the silly 5spot as you get deep in the travel. Compared to riding a hardtail it still feels like a couch, I like the frames to "stand up" under power and not sink into it's travel.

why do you want it to stand up?
its just the opposite of bob, your lifting the bike and yourself with your pedal power instead of transmitting it into forward drive, dissipating it as rebound, ok its not as bad, but its still useless, and makes your bike do burnouts on steep dry climbs and locks the suspension out during maximum torque output during each pedal stroke......
bleh... no thanks.

 

[kidwoo]

Fuck, I though Orange got their shit together and dropped the main pivot down inline with the chainring.

You won't like mine frames, mine have a bit more anti-squat than the Evil's, but it's falling rate so it still drops well below the silly 5spot as you get deep in the travel. Compared to riding a hardtail it still feels like a couch, I like the frames to "stand up" under power and not sink into it's travel.

I love that shit on gravel roads. Where it sucks is climbing up super chunky punchy climbs. Right when you want the suspension to work and hug terrain, it acts like a hardtail. IE: I agree with you, sounds bad.

The funny part about this is DW himself said the three front rings were a blessing back in the day, since the varying chainline meant there were different AS and AR values, which -again, according to him- were benfical for pedaling uphill or downhill.

Oh I know. Theoretically he's right, but when are you ever pedaling where you don't want to be efficient? Standing up mashing at full speed or sitting and spinning, you want compliance plus efficiency. Everybody prioritizes one over the other differently though. There's a case to be made for stiffening up in the big ring because if you're mashing full speed it's probably smooth. But then that just makes it way worse in a smaller ring usually.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

I sort of like bicycles with pedals and enjoy seeing what they can do. I was happy on a rigid with cantis, I was happy on my Raleigh M8000 y-bike, I was happy on my Joker, and my Heckler (when the suspension was not self disassembling) and I am happy on my Intense Tracer. Occasionally I might check air pressure/sag in shock and fork. I'm sure that this proves that I'm a suck rider.

 

[Jm_]

Chunky AND loose, on steep loose it slips when you are trying to put down the power. That’s what my K2 did. Orange doesn’t have their shit together also because still making elevated triangle post/mast rear triangles. No way as stiff as triangulated multi link/linage reinforced (like foes).

 

[dan-o]

reminder here: "feeling great" is subjective, and isn't always synonymous with being fast.

I’ll have to trust your word on that.

 

[kidwoo]

I sort of like bicycles with pedals and enjoy seeing what they can do. I was happy on a rigid with cantis, I was happy on my Raleigh M8000 y-bike, I was happy on my Joker, and my Heckler (when the suspension was not self disassembling) and I am happy on my Intense Tracer. Occasionally I might check air pressure/sag in shock and fork. I'm sure that this proves that I'm a suck rider.

No it just proves you clicked on the wrong thread. Pretty sure there's one about werthers originals going somewhere.

 

[shirk007]

why do you want it to stand up?
its just the opposite of bob, your lifting the bike and yourself with your pedal power instead of transmitting it into forward drive, dissipating it as rebound, ok its not as bad, but its still useless, and makes your bike do burnouts on steep dry climbs and locks the suspension out during maximum torque output during each pedal stroke......
bleh... no thanks.

I am not talking massive amounts of + anti-squat. At sag in 34x50 it's about 115%.

Like I said earlier, most bikes are falling into a narrower band these days, many of them trending to something close to 100% at sag. My personal preference is the higher side of that band, nothing extreme.

 

[Sandwich]

SO, on my super awsome DW link pivots,
coming down something similar to stairs, approaching a 180 degree turn that is not quite a switch back. Braking and chunk, the bike feels its worst.....
so in this particular corner I am always in a low gear as there is a very short flat, another turn then a quick climb after.
I always pinned the particular shit feel through this section as
1 meh this is a trail bike not a dh bike
2 that shit is pretty chunky
3 pedal kick back, because my front foot feels like its being wacked pretty hard right as the suspension moves or doesnt, or is it that since my foot wont move up the suspension doesn't move up much either?
in either case it feels sort of like a hard tail here.....

So, low wheel speed as in braking
suspension rear near top out, as in braking down a relatively steep section towards a corner.
low gear as in prepared for corner, tight corner, climb
there could be some interaction from the anti rise as well but i'm not positive Ill have to think about it more, perhaps some "micropacking" - i just invented that btw....

So there's a lot to unpack here, but if you're crawling along and compressing the suspension from 20mm to 120mm in very short order, then yeah absolutely you're going to get pedal feedback. What you're describing sounds pretty challenging on any bike and I'm not sure you're going to get what you want without getting pretty bad traits elsewhere. I will say that in similar situations I haven't noticed feedback much, largely because (my guess) the freehub rolls with each step, reducing chain tug, and I'm also going to guess that my body english compensates, whether it's locking my knees, getting way over the back, or I'm just too drunk to notice what's happening with my feets.

Sandwich brought up janky high single pivots so that's what I mentioned. And included the 5spot because it's obviously not unique to bullits. Pedal kickback exists.

If you're that confident, then I'll concede and agree with you. If it does exist, I simply can't feel it. As least not on the bikes that i have ridden (which include a morewood, rush, and Evil Following)

I love that shit on gravel roads. Where it sucks is climbing up super chunky punchy climbs. Right when you want the suspension to work and hug terrain, it acts like a hardtail. IE: I agree with you, sounds bad.

Here I disagree with you, and this may be where we go wrong- I love extra antisquat over 120% up steep punchy climbs with lots of roots and rocks and slippery surfaces. I don't want the suspension to hug the terrain- I hate that shit. It means the wheel is free to spin out and that the traction you have is all the traction you're going to have. With extra AS up those steep climbs, each pedal stroke digs in and provides additional traction up the steep stuff. Yeah, you have to compensate over ledges and shit, but you can't make it over them without positive traction. It's all about body positioning to maintain traction and finding the right balance of pedaling effort to not slip the wheel. I tried a hardtail for a while but I hated it partially for this reason- steep climbs were worse on a HT than a suspension bike with reasonable AS numbers. The opposite held true too- I tried an early FSR for a while and couldn't get up anything steep because the wheel would just slip. It was comical, and with different technique I could probably figure it out, but it was pretty clearly a detriment.

That's just my opinion though, and I ride a BMC so all bets are off.

 

[Sandwich]

That's just my opinion though, and I ride a BMC so all bets are off.

oh yeah, I've actually considered throwing a front derailleur back on the bike so I can drop into it before steep climbs and increase those AS numbers....

 

[slimshady]

oh yeah, I've actually considered throwing a front derailleur back on the bike so I can drop into it before steep climbs and increase those AS numbers....

DW approves!

 

[kidwoo]

Here I disagree with you, and this may be where we go wrong- I love extra antisquat over 120% up steep punchy climbs with lots of roots and rocks and slippery surfaces. I don't want the suspension to hug the terrain- I hate that shit. It means the wheel is free to spin out and that the traction you have is all the traction you're going to have. With extra AS up those steep climbs, each pedal stroke digs in and provides additional traction up the steep stuff.

But since those kinds of climbs are usually very pulsed from your legs and not smooth, you're driving the wheel INTO ledges instead of doing what suspension is supposed to do. It makes the bike hang up and slows forward momentum.

I literally sold my norco for no other reason that I was noticeably more gassed on long rough climbs than the bike it replaced, and then the bike I replaced it with.

You're correct on providing traction (why I mentioned roads). But when it comes to stair steppy stuff where you're punching on the pedals it slows you down because it hangs up and resists carrying you and the front triangle forward. It's just science™

 

[Nick]

I literally sold my norco for no other reason that I was noticeably more gassed on long rough climbs than the bike it replaced, and then the bike I replaced it with.

what did you replace it with?

 

[Sandwich]

But since those kinds of climbs are usually very pulsed from your legs and not smooth, you're driving the wheel INTO ledges instead of doing what suspension is supposed to do. It makes the bike hang up and slows forward momentum.

yeah but that's where you let off the gas for a second when you hit the log then apply again to climb over it.

I think that's just different strokes for folks. Keep in mind all of my climbs are super short, minimal elevation gain with extreme technicality. I might feel different if I had to do it for miles rather than yards.

If you have empirical evidence that the norco was wearing you out then I believe you, but for me it was a matter of not making it up climbs vs flying up them.

 

[englertracing]

Chunky AND loose, on steep loose it slips when you are trying to put down the power. That’s what my K2 did. Orange doesn’t have their shit together also because still making elevated triangle post/mast rear triangles. No way as stiff as triangulated multi link/linage reinforced (like foes).

whenever an orange comes up on pink bike, i always comment that they look like a 1997 foes, if you substitue Brents artistic welds with those of a drunk 11 year old. Or british teeth welds.

 

[kidwoo]

yeah but that's where you let off the gas for a second when you hit the log then apply again to climb over it.

The stuff I'm talking about has no letting up because you'll stop.

It's more effort because you need to do the pelvic thrusting more because the bike is hanging up.

Walk up to a flight of stars with a long handled sledge hammer hanging loosely in one arm, low enough so that the head taps each stair as you walk up it. Which is easier to progress, just letting it dangle or driving it into the face of each stair as you get to it.

The wheel HAS to go up and over to keep moving. Driving it down into the steps just fights that process. It's why norco changed their design and most bikes don't have that gnarly of AS curves designed into them.

what did you replace it with?

Tranny patrol

 

[Nick]

Tranny patrol

"I'll take "what kidwoo cruises on Friday nights" for $400, Alex"

 

[shirk007]

Tranny patrol

I was going to make a joke about you hating anti-squat so much you bought a Knolly.

 

[xy9ine]

I was going to make a joke about you hating anti-squat so much you bought a Knolly.

as much as i like the man, i really don't get the appeal of those bikes.

 

[kidwoo]

I was going to make a joke about you hating anti-squat so much you bought a Knolly.

I don't like bikes that hang up climbing but I'm not an idiot.

 

[jstuhlman]

"I'll take "what kidwoo cruises on Friday nights" for $400, Alex"

dammit, someone provide this man with some rep.

 

[Jm_]

I don't like bikes that hang up climbing but I'm not an idiot.

I think the low-AS bikes use an abnormal amount of travel while climbing over bumps, to the point where if they were just rolling downhill over a similar-sized object, they wouldn't use as much travel. That's what it feels like to me. With around 100%, which I don't consider "high" AS, I find the reaction to bumps uphill and downhill is about the same. That soggy-super-traction feeling is a feedback-loop IME, bump causes suspension to sag to where there's less AS, more power applied makes it squat more because there's less AS to counter it, to a point further in the travel where there's even less AS, front end getting light, etc...Real feedback through the pedals is noticeable, whether going up or down. I shouldn't be using 4" of travel uphill. But I'm just an idiot that's going for a ride right now.