[slimshady]

I was thinking how SRAM impacted in such a negative way the reliability of bike components in general. If Shimano can do away with such a high rate of brake failures it certainly has a lot to do with the gobs of unreliable Avid/SRAM brakes we all came to love or hate. Now all the Shimano fanboys out there would just happily say "yeah, I just warrantied them".

What would you guys do if the brakes in your brand new Dodge ram did the same? I'm more than sure a class action would emerge.

 

[toodles]

What would you guys do if the brakes in your brand new Dodge ram did the same? I'm more than sure a class action would emerge.

I've heard the way MTBers tolerate product failures to be described as Stockholm Syndrome and its pretty apt. If any other industry, had a brake with some of the failure modes and characteristics we tolerate there'd be legal intervention for sure. MTBers on the other hand are always "maybe the user just needs to learn to freshly bleed their brakes before every use".

 

[slimshady]

I've heard the way MTBers tolerate product failures to be described as Stockholm Syndrome and its pretty apt. If any other industry, had a brake with some of the failure modes and characteristics we tolerate there'd be legal intervention for sure. MTBers on the other hand are always "maybe the user just needs to learn to freshly bleed their brakes before every use".

I'd call it Apple Syndrome. Remember the antennagate? "You're holding it wrong!"

 

[1soulrider]

What would you guys do if the brakes in your brand new Dodge ram did the same? I'm more than sure a class action would emerge.

You mean Fiat Ram truck?

 

[Udi]

I was thinking how SRAM impacted in such a negative way the reliability of bike components in general. If Shimano can do away with such a high rate of brake failures it certainly has a lot to do with the gobs of unreliable Avid/SRAM brakes we all came to love or hate. Now all the Shimano fanboys out there would just happily say "yeah, I just warrantied them".

I agree, but it's hardly excusable to say "our competition sucks, so we purposely reduced the quality of everything we make" - exactly what Shimano did. Their components around the time of the original XT 4-pot brake (M755) were of high quality, reflected over drivetrain parts too. M952 derailleurs (and Dura-Ace of the same era right until model 7800) could last a decade of hard use without developing pivot play.

Current Saint derailleurs develop play within a few months of hard use. XTR shifter clamps bend when you look at them, and the casings - now plastic - no longer line up (visible gaps all over). High-end SRAM shifting components (XO, XO1, XX1) have been better built for a long time, reflected in superior shifting performance.

SRAM brakes still develop problems, but they at least seem to be trying, whereas Shimano just slaps new paint on problematic brakes while ignoring issues, OEM sales are strong enough to maintain profits. Shimano cranks / cassettes / chains are still good, but even the cranks and cassettes are long overdue for weight optimisation to stay in line with the competition. They stopped caring long ago.

I think people should vote with their wallets and support brands that are still interested in making amazing products. They are out there, they cost more (better materials and processes always do), but the way I see it it's an investment both now and for the future.

Buying disposable parts is supporting a disposable future.

 

[norbar]

I agree, but it's hardly excusable to say "our competition sucks, so we purposely reduced the quality of everything we make" - exactly what Shimano did. Their components around the time of the original XT 4-pot brake (M755) were of high quality, reflected over drivetrain parts too. M952 derailleurs (and Dura-Ace of the same era right until model 7800) could last a decade of hard use without developing pivot play.

Current Saint derailleurs develop play within a few months of hard use. XTR shifter clamps bend when you look at them, and the casings - now plastic - no longer line up (visible gaps all over). High-end SRAM shifting components (XO, XO1, XX1) have been better built for a long time, reflected in superior shifting performance.

SRAM brakes still develop problems, but they at least seem to be trying, whereas Shimano just slaps new paint on problematic brakes while ignoring issues, OEM sales are strong enough to maintain profits. Shimano cranks / cassettes / chains are still good, but even the cranks and cassettes are long overdue for weight optimisation to stay in line with the competition. They stopped caring long ago.

I think people should vote with their wallets and support brands that are still interested in making amazing products. They are out there, they cost more (better materials and processes always do), but the way I see it it's an investment both now and for the future.

Buying disposable parts is supporting a disposable future.

I agree though it's sad in some cases there is little choice if you don't want Shimano or Sram. The duopoly lowers competitiveness and hurts quality.

 

[slimshady]

You mean Fiat Ram truck?

Whatever, put any other car or moto company there. It wouldn't survive six months without it being all over the media and lawyers would be feasting on it. Inconsistency/failure rates in the bike industry are above the roof, and we are being told to put up with it since the quality is well worth the pain.

Current Saint derailleurs develop play within a few months of hard use. XTR shifter clamps bend when you look at them, and the casings - now plastic - no longer line up (visible gaps all over). High-end SRAM shifting components (XO, XO1, XX1) have been better built for a long time, reflected in superior shifting performance.

Shimano read a page or two from SRAM's manufacturing manual, and now you basically have 3-4 molds for each product line (brakes, RDs, etc) with the differentiating touches given by a dab of paint and some more stainless steel or aluminium screws and bits in the higher steps. The industry justification being the end users need a "common family identity" to reflect themselves on. Not that they're saving a whole lot of money by painting XT instead of Saint/Zee in a caliper .

I think people should vote with their wallets and support brands that are still interested in making amazing products.

I'm sorry, but that logic is getting a little tired, especially when OEM sales outnumber regular folks shopping for replacement parts as much as 8 to 1.

 

[Jm_]

Brakes suck.

 

[jonKranked]

i've got a set of saint m800 brakes. debating whether or not to sell them with the DH bike.

 

[jonKranked]

I agree though it's sad in some cases there is little choice if you don't want Shimano or Sram. The duopoly lowers competitiveness and hurts quality.

i'm curious to see some real long term reviews on the Box stuff.

 

[toodles]

I'm sorry, but that logic is getting a little tired, especially when OEM sales outnumber regular folks shopping for replacement parts as much as 8 to 1.

Does anyone spec Hope brakes OEM? I know Kona used their hubs awhile ago.

SRAM and Shimano own OEM unfortunately - hence the utter proliferation of bloody Reverbs on new bikes.

 

[norbar]

i'm curious to see some real long term reviews on the Box stuff.

Yeah same here. What are the initial reviews from real non squid people?

 

[slimshady]

Yeah same here. What are the initial reviews from real non squid people?

Please don't tell me we gotta fight squid lizards now...

 

[Udi]

i'm curious to see some real long term reviews on the Box stuff.

Yeah same here. What are the initial reviews from real non squid people?

A buddy of mine was sponsored by them, and it's a no-go.
Word was that the single-lever shifter was unituitive and just a pain. I'd avoid.

I've mentioned this before, but an excellent performing shifting solution with current gear is X01 shifter with whatever you can afford for the rest (eg. on a budget: GX derailleur and chain/cassette of your choosing - Shimano / other brand is fine here). I've found shifting a lot crispier and more consistent over long timespans with SRAM shifter/mech, but it's worth spending money on a high-end shifter (applies to any brand) since it has a large impact on shift performance. Other parts mostly impact weight.

 

[slimshady]

A buddy of mine was sponsored by them, and it's a no-go.
Word was that the single-lever shifter was unituitive and just a pain. I'd avoid.

They've thrown away the single-pad design and went straight into a SunRace dual-pad design now. It's also SunRace who's making their cassettes.

 

[Udi]

Is it a dual thumb shifter?
IMO the SRAM way is the only way to do it - i.e. two paddles, both actuated by thumb in push direction.
Obviously Shimano offers the same now (but didn't always).

Anyway, I honestly see no reason to use Box when current SRAM is very good, and Shimano is hardly bad either, unless you desperately want to take a risk with something unknown just to avoid supporting those two brands.

Brakes are a very different story, the major players suck, so there's every reason to try others.

 

[slimshady]

Is it a dual thumb shifter?
IMO the SRAM way is the only way to do it - i.e. two paddles, both actuated by thumb in push direction.
Obviously Shimano offers the same now (but didn't always).

Anyway, I honestly see no reason to use Box when current SRAM is very good, and Shimano is hardly bad either, unless you desperately want to take a risk with something unknown just to avoid supporting those two brands.

Brakes are a very different story, the major players suck, so there's every reason to try others.

I agree. Plus some of the early tests with the refined RD and dual-pad shifter complained about how fragile the composite p-knucle was when compared to Shimano and SRAM.

 

[atrokz]

My XT brakes are still rocking, even now in sub zero temps. haven't needed to bleed or flush the fluid yet either. I guess I really really lucked out with all the great shimano brake and drivetrain products I've had. 3 seasons on this XT drl and it's got no wobble yet. Will be on XT 11spd next season next year.

Also, my computer wants to change shimano to Hiroshima. Weird.

 

[Gary]

Also, my computer wants to change shimano to Hiroshima.

Is your computer called Udi?

 

[jonKranked]

Word was that the single-lever shifter was unituitive and just a pain. I'd avoid.

I read a month or 2 back that they were doing away with that shifter citing potential IP conflict. They apparently have already developed and released a traditional style two paddle shifter.

 

[norbar]

A buddy of mine was sponsored by them, and it's a no-go.
Word was that the single-lever shifter was unituitive and just a pain. I'd avoid.

I've mentioned this before, but an excellent performing shifting solution with current gear is X01 shifter with whatever you can afford for the rest (eg. on a budget: GX derailleur and chain/cassette of your choosing - Shimano / other brand is fine here). I've found shifting a lot crispier and more consistent over long timespans with SRAM shifter/mech, but it's worth spending money on a high-end shifter (applies to any brand) since it has a large impact on shift performance. Other parts mostly impact weight.

Is it still a pita to take apart like old x.0's?

 

[Udi]

Is it still a pita to take apart like old x.0's?

Why would you want to take a shifter apart?

 

[troy]

Why would you want to take a shifter apart?

 

[Toshi]

IMO the SRAM way is the only way to do it - i.e. two paddles, both actuated by thumb in push direction.
Obviously Shimano offers the same now (but didn't always).

Ancient Shimano disagrees with you:

 

[dump]

Ancient Shimano disagrees with you:

Still rocking those on my hybrid... i mean... 29er.

 

[Jm_]

Ancient Shimano disagrees with you:

Ha, I used to work on those all the time at the bike shop. Usually gummed up and not working.

 

[norbar]

Why would you want to take a shifter apart?

I used to have a nasty habbit of kicking my shifter while crashing so I had a ton of broken ones. I took them apart for spares and made 2 into 1 or 3 into 1.

 

[Flo33]

Ancient Shimano disagrees with you:

In that era was a xt brake lever with the first iteration of servo wave. Who can remember those? The mechanism was visible through a small window on top of the lever case.
That bastard of a brake gave me a solid OTB the first time I tried one on a friend's bike. Its power was phenomenal at the time.
Can't find any pics of it. Must have been a rapidfire shifter/brake lever combo, 7spd.

 

[Udi]

Out of curiosity (as I think no one answered?) - does the new BOX shifter have both levers "pushed"?
I.e. not one as a pull lever? Seems at least worth further exploration if that's the case.
It looks kinda crappy in the pic though.

Anyway don't get me wrong - I think Shimano have made great contributions to braking, servo-wave is awesome, and I've commented on the heat dissipation technologies before - no one does this nearly as well as Shimano, and there are a lot of poor imitations.

Just think it's a damn shame they've dropped the ball in the more fundamental elements - quality, reliability, durability and consistency. I used to have hopes that they'd fix that stuff, but they seem to have proven they don't care.

In that era was a xt brake lever with the first iteration of servo wave. Who can remember those? The mechanism was visible through a small window on top of the lever case.
That bastard of a brake gave a solid OTB the first time I tried one on a friend's bike. Its power was phenomenal at the time.

I forget how they looked, but I do remember the XT servo-wave v-brakes also had the parallelogram linkages to keep the pad contact square at the rim. The two technologies in combination definitely made for a very powerful brake, I remember being impressed.

Ancient Shimano disagrees with you:

I stand corrected. Both pushed by thumb?
They look awful but seems legit!

 

[slimshady]

Out of curiosity (as I think no one answered?) - does the new BOX shifter have both levers "pushed"?

According to Velozine it's a push-pull design to drop to smaller cogs, a la Shimano:

http://www.velozine.nl/2017/09/05/eurobike-2017-box-breidt-programma-uit-en-schrapt-push-push-shifter/

They do also mention the possible SunRace/Microshift connection @jonKranked

 

[Flo33]

I forget how they looked, but I do remember the XT servo-wave v-brakes also had the parallelogram linkages to keep the pad contact square at the rim. The two technologies in combination definitely made for a very powerful brake, I remember being impressed.

Found em. ST-M092 is the product code. There were at least two iterations, one with the classic rapidfire dual push shifters and one with the rapidfire plus push pull shifters.

Current state of affairs doesn't suit Shimano's quality first and high tech engineering ethos. It's a bit of a shame.

 

[Gary]

Old Shimano Exage mtn etc (21 speed and at a guess from around '92-4) groupsets had push push shifters too they came in combined STI shift levers or as seperate pods and brake levers..
The first servo cam V brake levers Shimano sold came with a warning label about their power. I thought this was well funny at the time as I used them with old skool non-V brake levers so the power was much higher than with the cam already. What sort of retard pulls their front brake lever to tha bar as hard as they can to initiate braking anyway? hahah Sorry @Flo33
I'll happily still use V-brakes anyday. anywhere. ultimate braking performance just isn't all that important to me though and a decent V-brake is still more reliable than a hell of a lot of hydro disc brakes systems even today.

 

[kidwoo]

a decent V-brake is still more reliable than a hell of a lot of hydro disc brakes systems even today.

helloooo new signature

 

[Gary]

if only they'd bring back rod brakes instead of those shitty modern cables.

 

[Flo33]

What sort of retard pulls their front brake lever to tha bar as hard as they can to initiate braking anyway? hahah Sorry @Flo33

A then thirteen years old one
Also, back then there were no common v brakes, Shimano released theirs 96.

 

[Jim Mac]

i'm curious to see some real long term reviews on the Box stuff.

While it may be an apples to oranges comparison, Box is not without recall issues in the BMX world - crabonz forks were the latest with steerer tube bonding issues.

 

[HAB]

Team Robot says you're wrong.

https://teamrobotkillsyourface.com/2017/11/19/these-articles-were-excellent/

 

[slimshady]

Team Robot says you're wrong.

https://teamrobotkillsyourface.com/2017/11/19/these-articles-were-excellent/

... And Charlie has become suddenly relevant because...

 

[atrokz]

Ha, I used to work on those all the time at the bike shop. Usually gummed up and not working.

Brake fluid flush for about 1minute and they were back to functioning. lol. If you liked the client, then some oil after....

 

[HAB]

Brake fluid flush for about 1minute and they were back to functioning. lol. If you liked the client, then some oil after....

WD-40 works pretty well too.

The amount of propellant I inhaled reviving those stupid things back in my shop days must have taken years off my life.