[ohio]

I think there's a difference between Christian bashing and bashing a few of the folks on RM that are (or call themselves) Christians

But that's just me.

 

[N8 v2.0]

I think there's a difference between Christian bashing and bashing a few of the folks on RM that are (or call themselves) Christians

But that's just me.

Good thing I don't subscribe to christianity or else I might be offended....

 

[Skookum]

Good thing I don't subscribe to christianity or else I might be offended....

i knew it! You're a Muslim! Die you dirka dirka blakka blakka jihad luvin mother ****er!!

 

[ohio]

Good thing I don't subscribe to christianity or else I might be offended....

You shouldn't be. If I were to criticize someone who's black (or liberal, or vegetarian, or you-name-it) because they're wearing using their skin color (or other "grouping") as justification for condescension, self-importance, and claims of moral superiority I'm not black-bashing, I'm bashing someone who's black. There's a huge difference.

 

[Damn True]

You shouldn't be. If I were to criticize someone who's black (or liberal, or vegetarian, or you-name-it) because they're wearing using their skin color (or other "grouping") as justification for condescension, self-importance, and claims of moral superiority I'm not black-bashing, I'm bashing someone who's black. There's a huge difference.

The point is that the vast majority of the people on this site don't take time to draw the same distinction between individual Christians and Christians as a whole that they demand Christians draw between them.

All I'm asking for is that people show the same respect to other peoples beliefs that they want shown to theirs. Not too much to ask IMO.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

I’m not real sure how the whole “original sin” thing factors into this conversation but I’ll share a few thoughts on the subject.

First, the Bible does not start with Genesis chapter 3 (the fall), it starts with Genesis chapter 1 where God seeing His creation (man and woman in His image) and He says “it is good”. Being human as originally created and originally intended is good – when people say when they screw up “well I’m only human” as if to say they are worthless or something. This kind of thinking is a fundamental misunderstanding of Genesis 1.

Sin is what “gets in the way” of us being fully human and living as God intends for us to live. We are so “hard wired” for this that in Romans Paul says that even the Pagans sometimes by their conscience do what is required by the Torah even though they don’t know the Torah – why is that, because it’s hard wired into us.

This is one of my “beefs” with Calvinism, the whole “Total depravity of man” deal – which would seem to run counter to Paul’s “sometimes those who don’t know the Torah sometimes live it out” – if a person is “totally” depraved then they wouldn’t be living out the Torah every once in a while.

Now that said, Biblically because a “pagan” lives out the Torah from time to time does not “get their ticket punched” as far as salvation is concerned.

Anyway, those are some thoughts that are bouncing around my head this morning on the subject.

Okay - so question:
In Genesis 1, God said "it is good" before the concept of 'sin' existed - before the concept of 'self' occurred. It was only after the apple (my favorite fruit btw) was munched down, that suddenly they realized they were already living in sin, without modesty, clothing, or awareness of how their actions might be perceived.

So in a sense - it's "after" we became self-aware that we became sinful and had a need for laws, morality, and religion. It's like saying a true "animal" who is innocent and not really "self" aware in the same sense we are, and thus cannot be held to the same rigid concepts of morality as humans.

My conclusion is that it is a uniquely conscious human trait to be sinful, and thus to say mistakes are "only human" makes sense.

Also - the concept of sin is not one that is uniquely Christian, but versions morals and ideologies exist in all walks of life, all cultures, and relgions. So only Changleen on this site who claims to believe not-at-all can claim to be better than human and closer to the innocent animal.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

After re-reading -that wasn't a question so much as a desire to see the dialog continue...carry on!

 

[Damn True]

Okay - so question:
In Genesis 1, God said "it is good" before the concept of 'sin' existed - before the concept of 'self' occurred. It was only after the apple (my favorite fruit btw) was munched down, that suddenly they realized they were already living in sin, without modesty, clothing, or awareness of how their actions might be perceived.

So in a sense - it's "after" we became self-aware that we became sinful and had a need for laws, morality, and religion. It's like saying a true "animal" who is innocent and not really "self" aware in the same sense we are, and thus cannot be held to the same rigid concepts of morality as humans.

My conclusion is that it is a uniquely conscious human trait to be sinful, and thus to say mistakes are "only human" makes sense.

Also - the concept of sin is not one that is uniquely Christian, but versions morals and ideologies exist in all walks of life, all cultures, and relgions. So only Changleen on this site who claims to believe not-at-all can claim to be better than human and closer to the innocent animal.

Well isn't that nice?
Since you've cleared all this up for us I guess we can all go forth and:

Have like 15 gods

Start the first annual graven image ice sculpture contest

Say "God Dammit" as often as possible

Visit whores on Sunday (Saturday if you are Jewish)

Steal from your father and your mother

Get on out and kill someone (does being in favor of killing Terry Schiavo count?)

Cheat on your wives and husbands.

Go steal yourself a BMW

Tell the cops that your neihbor beats his kids....even if he dosen't have any.

Nail the neihbors wife while he's talking to the cops.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Well isn't that nice?
Since you've cleared all this up for us I guess we can all go forth and:

Have like 15 gods

Start the first annual graven image ice sculpture contest

Say "God Dammit" as often as possible

Visit whores on Sunday (Saturday if you are Jewish)

Steal from your father and your mother

Get on out and kill someone (does being in favor of killing Terry Schiavo count?)

Cheat on your wives and husbands.

Go steal yourself a BMW

Tell the cops that your neihbor beats his kids....even if he dosen't have any.

Nail the neihbors wife while he's talking to the cops.

Wow - someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed. So what if I don't wanna fight? :eviltongu

And uh, btw - while you're not directly bashing those who disagree with your personal beliefs, the tenor of sarcasm in your replies to most "non-True-conformists" on this site gets old, is boorish, and if anyone bothered to pay more attention to you, could be considered offensive.

But hey - I don't like to ignore people cuz I like to read their amusing blather.

 

[Damn True]

Wow - someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed. So what if I don't wanna fight? :eviltongu

And uh, btw - while you're not directly bashing those who disagree with your personal beliefs, the tenor of sarcasm in your replies to most "non-True-conformists" on this site gets old, is boorish, and if anyone bothered to pay more attention to you, could be considered offensive.

But hey - I don't like to ignore people cuz I like to read their amusing blather.

I have a spare sense of humor you can borrow. Yours is apparently not working very well.

It was, as is this, a joke m'dear.

 

[ohio]

All I'm asking for is that people show the same respect to other peoples beliefs that they want shown to theirs. Not too much to ask IMO.

More than fair and I fully agree.

Not that it makes it any better, but if you're thinking of the rash of recent Changleen threads, it's not like anyone is putting much stock in his frothing anyway.

 

[N8 v2.0]

i knew it! You're a Muslim! Die you dirka dirka blakka blakka jihad luvin mother ****er!!

Naw... I am a purple-haired nakkie troll....

 

[Damn True]

More than fair and I fully agree.

Not that it makes it any better, but if you're thinking of the rash of recent Changleen threads, it's not like anyone is putting much stock in his frothing anyway.

No, I realize most of ya'all are smarter than that. I just wonder why it's acceptible to demonstrate hate for one group and not others.

If you and I started routinely blaming the black populace for all that ails us and the world we would be run off the monkey on a rail as racists. If we did the same with Jews we'd be anti-semites. But for some reason it's ok to do the same thing to other groups provided you are surrounded with enough people with similar predjudice.

 

[N8 v2.0]

No, I realize most of ya'all are smarter than that. I just wonder why it's acceptible to demonstrate hate for one group and not others.

If you and I started routinely blaming the black populace for all that ails us and the world we would be run off the monkey on a rail as racists. If we did the same with Jews we'd be anti-semites. But for some reason it's ok to do the same thing to other groups provided you are surrounded with enough people with similar predjudice.

Damn true.... dat...

 

[Westy]

No, I realize most of ya'all are smarter than that. I just wonder why it's acceptible to demonstrate hate for one group and not others.

If you and I started routinely blaming the black populace for all that ails us and the world we would be run off the monkey on a rail as racists. If we did the same with Jews we'd be anti-semites. But for some reason it's ok to do the same thing to other groups provided you are surrounded with enough people with similar predjudice.

It probably makes more sense to call out the individual posts you find unacceptable than to direct your comments to all those whose opinions are to the left of yours.

Commenting more on your first post than the quoted one. It is just so tacky quoting the first post of a thread this late in its life.

 

[Silver]

All I'm asking for is that people show the same respect to other peoples beliefs that they want shown to theirs. Not too much to ask IMO.

Oh, c'mon.

You want a tissue now that you're done jerking off to clean up the mess?

Consider it a test from God. You're not doing quite as well as Job so far...

 

[Silver]

No, I realize most of ya'all are smarter than that. I just wonder why it's acceptible to demonstrate hate for one group and not others.

If you and I started routinely blaming the black populace for all that ails us and the world we would be run off the monkey on a rail as racists. If we did the same with Jews we'd be anti-semites. But for some reason it's ok to do the same thing to other groups provided you are surrounded with enough people with similar predjudice.

Ok boys and girls...what is the difference between religion and race? Besides, you somehow think that I wouldn't be bitching if the Nation of Islam just happened to get Farrakhan elected President?

Gold star up for grabs here...

 

[$tinkle]

Gold star up for grabs here...

you would pick gold

jew-lover

 

[Andyman_1970]

Okay - so question:
In Genesis 1, God said "it is good" before the concept of 'sin' existed - before the concept of 'self' occurred.

Your statement regarding “self” is a rather large assumption, Biblically that is – Biblically there is no connection between the realization of ‘self’ and sin. Adam was very self aware prior to the Fall, he helped God with things in the Garden – naming animals and stuff like that, he had meaningful work.

It was only after the apple (my favorite fruit btw) was munched down, that suddenly they realized they were already living in sin, without modesty, clothing, or awareness of how their actions might be perceived.

First, to be technical about it, the fruit was not an apple. Second, it was the munching of the apple that was the sin, the disobedience to what God said, a turning from living the way God intended for Adam and Eve to live. This is what caused the disharmony between humans and God – the realization of nakedness and such was a by product.

So in a sense - it's "after" we became self-aware that we became sinful and had a need for laws, morality, and religion. It's like saying a true "animal" who is innocent and not really "self" aware in the same sense we are, and thus cannot be held to the same rigid concepts of morality as humans.

According to the Scriptures our sin nature is handed down to us, but it was not intended to be part of the original design.

My conclusion is that it is a uniquely conscious human trait to be sinful, and thus to say mistakes are "only human" makes sense.

I would disagree – we were created to be fully human, our sinfulness gets in the way of being fully human. So to say “well I’m only human” is to speak ill of something that God intended (and intends) to be good.

Again, it’s a fundamental misunderstanding of creation (Biblically that is). Far too often in religious (Christian based) the whole Story starts in Genesis 3, rather than what God intends for us to be like (Genesis 1) – being fully human is what God says “it is good”.

Granted sinfulness is uniquely human behavior, but I would argue that a human with a sin nature is not fully human, according to the Bible. Sin in the Bible falls into one of two categories, either 1) disobedience of some sort, or 2) a falling short of what God intended. Humans with our inherited sinful nature fall short of what God intends for us to be.

Also - the concept of sin is not one that is uniquely Christian, but versions morals and ideologies exist in all walks of life, all cultures, and relgions. So only Changleen on this site who claims to believe not-at-all can claim to be better than human and closer to the innocent animal.

Since I’m presenting this from the Biblical Judeo/Christian perspective those versions don’t factor into this discussion, at least from my end of it – others from those perspective are welcome to chime in.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Ok boys and girls...what is the difference between religion and race?

As far as Judaism is concerned those lines are pretty blurry.

 

[Changleen]

Ok boys and girls...what is the difference between religion and race? Besides, you somehow think that I wouldn't be bitching if the Nation of Islam just happened to get Farrakhan elected President?

Gold star up for grabs here...

Oh Oh I know I know! You are born into a certain race but you have to choose to subscribe to story book morals. You can't help your race but you can always expand your mind.

 

[Westy]

As far as Judaism is concerned those lines are pretty blurry.

Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and in some systems Australoid.

I don't thind they added Judaloid recently.

 

[$tinkle]

Oh Oh I know I know! You are born into a certain race but you have to choose to subscribe to story book morals. You can't help your race but you can always expand your mind.

can't remember if i asked you this before: upon what do you base your morality?

for that matter, do you subscribe to the tenet of assumed authority (vice earned)?

not a trap, just curious.

 

[H8R]

But for some reason it's ok to do the same thing to other groups provided you are surrounded with enough people with similar predjudice.

The prejudice comes from people being sick and tired of the religious right being all up people's asses. Judgement is supposed to be reserved for the Lord, correct?



Not all Christians are this way, of course. I would say most are pretty decent people. But you guys really need to have a talk with the zealots among you.

Same goes for the left.

 

[Changleen]

can't remember if i asked you this before: upon what do you base your morality?

for that matter, do you subscribe to the tenet of assumed authority (vice earned)?

not a trap, just curious.

Logic. For exaple, in order to maintain a civil society it is in everyone's interests that we don't go round killing each other - hence 'Thou shalt not kill' if you like. Secondly you can also apply 'How would I like it if someone did that to me?'. That pretty much covers most situations as long as you think things through.

 

[Damn True]

Hmm, apparently it was too much to ask.
Pardon me, it seems I gave many of you far too much credit.

Forget I asked, and go on being bigoted.

 

[$tinkle]

Secondly you can also apply 'How would I like it if someone did that to me?'

you know they make these 'wwjd' bracelets? similar concept

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Lots of good words

so...what if God's original design had "sin" included in it? He did after all create Lucifer as well...

Perhaps God does have a sense of humor and fun and designed us to be free and independent thinking spirits who get into trouble a lot.

personally I think some sin within certain boundaries that hurts no one else is kinda fun...for example, I just ate a whole package of starburst after lunch today...that is a sin according to my own personal definition of what is real food and what is a tasty chemical cocktail designed for nothing more than a false "high" throughout the day and a big ass many years from now.

But then I guess we come back to the age old argument of "what is sin", and we get the left wingers and the right wingers dancin around in a circle - we get the christians and the jews and the muslims and the buddhists arguing about morality and where it starts and stops, and we get those who think one does have a right to impose their values on others, and we have those who are more lassez faire.

As to my understanding of Genesis - I admit Andyman - that it's rather elementary from back in the day when I attended sunday school and my copy of the bible came with cute images of dolls on the front...

 

[Silver]

As far as Judaism is concerned those lines are pretty blurry.

David Cross has a funny bit about that, actually.

"Was your mother's vagina Jewish?"

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Hmm, apparently it was too much to ask.
Pardon me, it seems I gave many of you far too much credit.

Forget I asked, and go on being bigoted.

Okay! would you prefer that we all kowtowed to your revered wisdom in the way of our lord?

 

[Damn True]

No, what I would like is a bit of mutual respect.
That apparently is too much to ask of a lot of people.

Faith defines not only how people live, but who they are. Attacking that regardless of the individual faith is absolutely no different than attacking one's heritage.

I pray that each of you finds salvation, but I have no desire to MAKE you believe what I believe. I just ask that you respect my beliefs as much as I respect yours. Some here are apparently incapable of that.

 

[Changleen]

Hmm, apparently it was too much to ask.
Pardon me, it seems I gave many of you far too much credit.

Forget I asked, and go on being bigoted.

What part of my explanation do you not understand?

 

[BuddhaRoadkill]

I pray that each of you finds salvation,

I'm still not seeing how this is not an attack. Why do I need salvation?
If I don't see things your way, I am doomed to eternal damnation ... gee, that's so loving and tolerant.

I'm still chewing on what Andyman said about original sin but I'm not having much luck getting over this salvation issue. It seems pretty cut and dry. If I don't accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, I will be punished. True or False? If I'm not pondscum, then why do I need salvation? For that matter, what is salvation anyway?

[Thanks for the insight Andyman, I'm not trying to be an ass - honest ]

 

[Damn True]

I understand the part where you denegrate the basis for my beliefs, and question my inteligence for doing so.

 

[Changleen]

I understand the part where you denegrate the basis for my beliefs, and question my inteligence for doing so.

I question your intelligence for believing in something with no demonstrable proof or apparant grounding in reality for the following reason:

Say you and I are on a cliff top. You say to me "I'm gonna step off this cliff, and float down to the beach 789 meters below." I would question your belief that the laws of physics do not apply to you and hopefully, with a minimum of fuss, you would appreciate that there is no logical reason to believe that the laws of physics do not apply to you and not commit suicide.

Now the same applies to certain situations with regard to your religious faith, although not in quite so messy and direct way. Certain religious elements (not necassarily you) wish to pass legislation based on their beliefs, which are not supported by scientific investigation or the best of current knowledge. In fact some of the legislation wants to be based on directly disproven tenents. As a non-believer I find it highly offensive and deeply illogical that I should be bound by the constraints of your unfounded beliefs.

What makes it worse is that if I had my way, you'd still be free to practice your beliefs, and I'd be free to practice mine. Everyone would be happy. What's the problem with this situation? I've never said I want to ban relgion, or to force people to think like me, but in a nation with free speech, I can't see why I shouldn't be allowed to advise you not to step off the cliff, especially since it's going to be my tax dollars that pay to have your bits scraped off the jagged rocks.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I don't thind they added Judaloid recently.

Being a Jew is a race, they are Semetic, being a Jew can also be a person who is a participant of Judaism.

 

[H8R]

I understand the part where you denegrate the basis for my beliefs, and question my inteligence for doing so.

The RM "Victim of the Year" award is almost in your grasp. Keep this up and you have it nabbed.

If you believe in something that no one can see, touch, feel, talk to, etc, then be prepared to take what gets dished out.

Consider it a test of faith to have to deal w/ people. This "poor me" attitude is pretty weak.

In fact, you'd have a hard time convincing me to be born again if it means I'm gonna go around being persecuted. But then again, I don't think need salvation.

I do need a haircut. 2" is way too long.

 

[ohio]

I just ask that you respect my beliefs as much as I respect yours.

I was with you until this statement. I think some of the problem may stem from a (percieved) lack of respect for differing views/beliefs on your side.

 

[Silver]

I was with you until this statement. I think some of the problem may stem from a (percieved) lack of respect for differing views/beliefs on your side.

I'd say he's getting the respect he deserves.

What a bunch of poop.

Liberals will turn this country into a mass of passionless lumps who stand for and believe in nothing.

Three guesses which respectful gentleman wrote that...(it was about taking "Under God" out of the pledge, btw.)

 

[valve bouncer]

I'd say he's getting the respect he deserves.

What a bunch of poop.

Liberals will turn this country into a mass of passionless lumps who stand for and believe in nothing.

Three guesses which respectful gentleman wrote that...(it was about taking "Under God" out of the pledge, btw.)

Apart from N8, DT is probably the least respectful frother on this forum. The list of people he despises is as long as your arm and can be basically summed as "anyone who's not like me". He comes on stirs sh*t, gets made to look stupid, pisses off for a month then comes back with more moaning. Boring and pathetic.