capital punishment: the ultimate price?

LordOpie · Feb 6, 2004

Originally posted by $tinkle
...so what would be a consistent punishment within the bounds of the law?

capital punishment is legal in Florida... dusty off old sparky and fry the sicko.

I Are Baboon · Feb 6, 2004

Originally posted by LordOpie
capital punishment is legal in Florida... dusty off old sparky and fry the sicko.

Hopefully they will persue the death penalty if he is found guilty. If he does get that sentence, he'll still have years in prison before he is executed, so I am sure he'll get his share of prison love. From what I hear, inmates who have vicitimized children are hated the most by other inmates.

ummbikes · Feb 6, 2004

This issue is my achilles heal when it comes to be a complete peace loving hippie.

My mind tells me that the death penalty is flawed, doesn't deter crime and sometimes kills inocent people.

My heart; a heart that is owned by three daughters, says that this thing, this pariah needs brutal, vicious punishment. I read in another thread that the dad should find a way to kill this guy, and while my mind says, "no", my heart tells me I would help.

My oldest will be eleven in June, she is learning the violin and is an intelligent, beautiful, kind human being. I can't really, or do I even want to comprehend the anguish the family of the victim is feeling.

Spud · Feb 6, 2004

Frigging live-wire topic. On the gut level Im for the capital punishment. But when you look at the imperfections in the U.S. legal system and the fact that over 141 people tried, convicted and sentenced to death (U.S.) have later been exonerated. (Not overturned on technicalities, but completely cleared by DNA and other evidence) That really leaves you wondering.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

JRogers · Feb 10, 2004

The man should get life. I am opposed to the death penalty regardless of the crime. There are many reasons, one of which is possibility of making a mistake. Others- the brutality of the whole thing, uselessness of it, unprovable (and in my mind, false) effect on deterrence, issues of fair application (a shady area but still compelling). Vengeance is not a virtue.

jdcamb · Feb 10, 2004

The death penalty would basically put him in isolation. He would have years in prison before they would exhaust his appeals and all the dicking around that goes with the death penalty. Give him a life sentence without parole, then put him in genral population. Then and only then will justice ultimately be served. He will tortured, abused, humiliated, enslaved, and then if he is lucky he will fight back and then he will be killed in a cruelly vicious way by one of his fellow inmates. You see in prison they don't like folks who do bad things to children. Many inmates take that sort of thing personally (as they have been victims as children themselves). Look at what happened to that priest in prison in Massachusetts. Now that would be justice.....jdcamb

shocktower · Feb 10, 2004

They have DNA on him and he got a stay fora while he was supposed to be injected yesterday ,and as far as the death penalty ,it does not detour crime but it takes the criminal off the earth

,but I think the heard will take care of the animal who does terrible things to children ,the genral population take care of the bad seeds :devil: :devil: :devil:

DHRacer · Feb 10, 2004

I'm all for capitol punishment... in fact, more should be doled out on the prison populations. If you kill someone (not in self-defense), you die. end of story. if you are a habitual drug offender, can't stop stealing, pedophile... you die. end of story. why should the decent law abiding citizens of this country have to support low life dead beat for the rest of their lives?

serioulsy? why? this whole spendign 12 years on death row, with appeal after appeal is rediculous! if convicted, take them out back and pop a cap in their head, or if you really want to make a public show over it, fry him or lethal injection.. just don't left the rest of our tax money go for supporting his sorry ass forever.

Also, i believe that if there were stiffer penalties for these crimes some might re-consider repeat offending... not all, probably not the majority, but some would... "let's see.... sell the crack, get caught and die - or - don't and live... hmm...

and before someone chimes in with but you might kill an innocent man... no, if he's in there for a third time as a repeat offender, he's pretty guilty. if he's killed somone and been framed, well yes, you take that chance, but really, how many times does that happen? not often. so in the long run, american is saving money not supporting low life criminals forever.

and quite possibly, having stiffer penalties might make some kids think twice before turning to a life of crime? we need stiffer punishment for kids also... too many of them think, "eh, steal this and get some time in Juvy or a home for a few months... big deal" Hmm, let me think... give them the option of, "hey, it doesnt' matter how old you are, you commit these crimes, you PAY... big!

anyway, not that I see any of this happening... ever... it just sucks that we have to pay for someone elses life of crime. where's the justice in THAT?

Velocity Girl · Feb 10, 2004

Weeding out the undesirables is how I view it. I agree that murder, unless in self-defense, accidents etc., should be punishable by the death penalty. I think there is some logic behind the "eye for an eye" mentality (to a point of course). I don't think someone who's a first offender for stealing, embezelling, fraud, should get the death penalty.....but if you're drug dealer in there on your third bust, hell yes!!

brock · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by DHRacer
I'm all for capitol punishment... in fact, more should be doled out on the prison populations. If you kill someone (not in self-defense), you die. end of story. if you are a habitual drug offender

Ever been through detox? Know what it's like to have a physical addiction?

According to your laws. I'd be a dead man right now.

Thanks

LordOpie · Feb 10, 2004

Wow! Some of y'all are scary with your hardcore, kill 'em in the face thinking. Next thing I know, y'all wanna enslave black people again.

I totally agree that it's not a deterent, but I do think that if someone is a continued threat to society and there's any chance of them escaping, they should be killed. Like Manson, that guy said he'd kill if he got out. How's he still alive?

fluff · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by LordOpie
Wow! Some of y'all are scary with your hardcore, kill 'em in the face thinking. Next thing I know, y'all wanna enslave black people again.

I was beginning to think that it must be Reactionary Tuesday in the US.

For those of you (DHRacer in particular) who are so gung-ho for capital punishment here's a question.

How many innocent people would you be prepared to allow to be killed in order to kill the guilty ones?

Because sooner or later it will happen.

LordOpie · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by $tinkle
...3 strikes & outta the gene pool.

I'm all for gene pool cleansing.

*shudders* :dead:

DHRacer · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by brock
Ever been through detox? Know what it's like to have a physical addiction?

According to your laws. I'd be a dead man right now.

Thanks

yes, I do know what it's like... and for clarification, I'm talking about the 3 strikes and you "out" rule... should have made that more clear... someone with one or two strikes should go through detox... but there comes a point when a person is beyond help, and it's at THAT point, we start weeding them out. And it's one thing to be hooked on something, quite another to be selling it... never the less, people have to start using at some point, and maybe if there were tougher consequences, they'd think twice before trying that first hit? (who knows?)

Besides, we're all just speculating here... not like any of this is going to happen in our lifetime.

i hope you're not sitting there telling me that with the likes of repeat offenders in our prisons systems, that you're content to continue to pay their way through life?

fluff · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by DHRacer
i hope you're not sitting there telling me that with the likes of repeat offenders in our prisons systems, that your content to continue to pay their way through life?

Given the choice between killing someone and paying a bit of tax that person would need to have pissed me off more than a little.

DHRacer · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by fluff
I was beginning to think that it must be Reactionary Tuesday in the US.

For those of you (DHRacer in particular) who are so gung-ho for capital punishment here's a question.

How many innocent people would you be prepared to allow to be killed in order to kill the guilty ones?

Because sooner or later it will happen.

as I stated above, yes there will be the occaisional innocent one I'm sure... but it's not a perfect world, and it's not a perfect system. it's a question of the lesser of two evils. you put to death 100 convicted murderers, 2 may be innocent 98 are cold, hard, ruthless people who don't give a rats ass... I don't see the problem in this. But maybe we should start letting all the bleeding hearts out there carry the burden... let's see how long that lasts?

how about this... there is a nationwide vote... those who wish to continue to support our beloved criminals sitting in our many prisions can vote to do so... those who dont' want to support them won't have to. now, those who voted yes, get a huge tax increase because surely no one really wants THEIR money going to make sure these people have a food and shelter.

Do you want to pay money out of your pocket because someone grew up on the ghetto or their mom and dad bailed on them and never said "I love you"?

Life is a choice. you can either choose to make good decisions and lead a nice happy law abiding life... or you can choose to follow the darker path... but it's still a choice. I came from a less than desireable background... i had plenty of opportunities along the way to get into a lot of trouble... but I didn't. so please dont' sit there and tell me that these people can't help but be in the position their in... it's crap! everyone has a choice. I'm sure I'm not the only one here that is proof of that.

DHRacer · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by fluff
Given the choice between killing someone and paying a bit of tax that person would need to have pissed me off more than a little.

well then I'll tell you what... you send me money every month for a portion of what I pay in my income taxes, and we'll call it even... because I dont' want to support those people.

LordOpie · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by DHRacer
well then I'll tell you what... you send me money every month for a portion of what I pay in my income taxes, and we'll call it even... because I dont' want to support those people.

I'm almost sure that it costs more to fry someone than it does to just jail 'em for life. So economically, life in prison is better for us.

DHRacer · Feb 10, 2004

how do you figure that??? Is that some kind of new math you're working with there?

besides there are far less expensive ways to do away with them.... :rolleyes:

LordOpie · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by DHRacer
how do you figure that??? Is that some kind of new math you're working with there?

besides there are far less expensive ways to do away with them....

new math? Oh, no, sorry, it's called research, you might want to try it sometime :rolleyes:

Every major cost study has shown capital punishment to be more expensive than an alternative system where life-imprisonment is the maximum sentence. link

fluff · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by DHRacer
as I stated above, yes there will be the occaisional innocent one I'm sure... but it's not a perfect world, and it's not a perfect system. it's a question of the lesser of two evils. you put to death 100 convicted murderers, 2 may be innocent 98 are cold, hard, ruthless people who don't give a rats ass... I don't see the problem in this. But maybe we should start letting all the bleeding hearts out there carry the burden... let's see how long that lasts?

Are you saying that you don't see a problem in killing 2 innocent people for every 98 guilty ones?

At what ratio of innocent to guilty would you see a problem?

brock · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by DHRacer
yes, I do know what it's like... and for clarification, I'm talking about the 3 strikes and you "out" rule... should have made that more clear... someone with one or two strikes should go through detox... but there comes a point when a person is beyond help, and it's at THAT point, we start weeding them out. And it's one thing to be hooked on something, quite another to be selling it... never the less, people have to start using at some point, and maybe if there were tougher consequences, they'd think twice before trying that first hit? (who knows?)

Besides, we're all just speculating here... not like any of this is going to happen in our lifetime.

i hope you're not sitting there telling me that with the likes of repeat offenders in our prisons systems, that you're content to continue to pay their way through life?

First of all, as a recovering addict I have a bias in regards to drug offenders especially users. The stiffer penalties on drugs charges that have come about in the last 10-15 years have done nothing to decrease drug usage. You also have to understand that it is that laws that say you cannot consume drugs that are making the users criminals. In the current system a person could get three strikes for possession of narcotics. Hardly worthy of killing them IMO.

As for the death penalty, I have typed plenty on the topic here in the past and I really dont have the time right now to do it all again. The short version is, I think our judicial system is flawed, our prison system does not rehabilitate, and the death penalty does not deter. I dont have enough faith in the system to let it figure how whether or not a person should live or die. I dont profess to know how to do it. I just see that what have does not work. I know thats a weak position on my part but so be it. I just dont feel comfortable killing people.

Im actually quite offended by some of the stuff I read here (not just this topic or this post). It really weirds me out how people can see life in such black and white terms. I think I might actually have to wrap this place up mostly do to my own immaturity or whatever it is that makes me take this stuff too personally.

RhinofromWA · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by LordOpie
I'm almost sure that it costs more to fry someone than it does to just jail 'em for life. So economically, life in prison is better for us.

Look into that because what you said is waaaaaay wrong.

I am hazarding a guess but to keep one person in prison for a year is much more than what I make in a year. (granted I don't rake in the money

)

How much does a .22 bullit to the head cost? ( doesn't take anymore than that)

Economically it doesn't make sense. If it did I am sure even DHR and everyone else wouldn't mind locking them away forever. It is insanely expense to baby sit murders and rapests.

Garry Ridgeway (Green River killer) Has admitted to killing over 40 ladies in the Seattle area over 20(?) or so years. He is serving life in prison 'cause they made a deal to cut court costs....he admitted to the killings in King County and got life. That man should not be breathing.....

DHRacer · Feb 10, 2004

we're all entitled to our own opions... and i did offer up an alternative method.

and Lord Opie, it's only expensive to execute someone if you MAKE it expensive... as I said, there are far less expensive ways to do get the job done. (and the cost of sustaining life for one inmate for 20-40 years is far more expensive than frying him)

RhinofromWA · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by LordOpie
new math? Oh, no, sorry, it's called research, you might want to try it sometime

Uhhh add the cost of new prisons and imprisoning a large large percentage of the country for over 80 years a pop......

Current prisons don't exactly have room to fill......so they let murders and rapest free.

Oops someone dies and they are back in. Revolving door?

Build new prisons? $$$$$

Net work and provide health care for individuals in prison? $$$$$

I am sure both sides will tell you it cost less....both are right in their eyes.

RhinofromWA · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by fluff
Are you saying that you don't see a problem in killing 2 innocent people for every 98 guilty ones?

At what ratio of innocent to guilty would you see a problem?

3:97 I reckon....

RhinofromWA · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by DHRacer
we're all entitled to our own opions... and i did offer up an alternative method.

and Lord Opie, it's only expensive to execute someone if you MAKE it expensive... as I said, there are far less expensive ways to do get the job done. (and the cost of sustaining life for one inmate for 20-40 years is far more expensive than frying him)

If the kid is 18 try 80years....

with the health club they run now.....he could live for ever j/k

kinda....

neaky:

DHRacer · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by brock

Im actually quite offended by some of the stuff I read here (not just this topic or this post). It really weirds me out how people can see life in such black and white terms. I think I might actually have to wrap this place up mostly do to my own immaturity or whatever it is that makes me take this stuff too personally.

i agree it's not a perfect system.

and I would certainly hope that you didn't take any of this personally, but understand why you might.

well all see the world from different views. I guess I'm more of a pessamist as I grow older because I don't see things getting better.... and quite frankly, and concerned at how far do we have to sink before things DO start getting better.

the death penalty will always bring controversy. try to keep in mind that this is merely a place for a lot of us express views and blow off steam. just because someone doesn't think or believe the way I do, doesn't mean I don't respect them as a person or like them any less... we just have different opions. it's what makes the world go round.

for what it's worth I think you an example of what's good about our system... someone who's turned their life around. but it still doesn't change the fact that there are many many more who haven't and/or won't.

fluff · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Uhhh add the cost of new prisons and imprisoning a large large percentage of the country for over 80 years a pop......

Current prisons don't exactly have room to fill......so they let murders and rapest free.

Oops someone dies and they are back in. Revolving door?

Build new prisons? $$$$$

Net work and provide health care for individuals in prison? $$$$$

I am sure both sides will tell you it cost less....both are right in their eyes.

Just because the current system is flawed does that justify increased death penalties? The answer is not to release murderers & rapists. (NB. The former group are less likely to re-offend.)

If you imprison people surely you have to provide shelter, warmth and health-care for them?

Given that prison is obviously such a lovely place to be would you choose to be there?

Don't forget that the US is (I think) the only Western democracy that still implements the death penalty. Other nations seem to survive pretty well without it.

Under our current laws if someone were to murder my wife or child and I then killed that person I could easily be on trial for murder. According to some here I would then be facing the death sentence because I would not lie and if I could not prove the other party's guilt I would be convicted.

LordOpie · Feb 10, 2004

saying it cost nothing to execute someone cuz how much could a bullet cost is extremely shortsighted.

There's due process and that process of death penalty appeals costs more than life in prison.

Now, if you'd like to argue that there should be no appeals, well, you're scaring the sh:t out of me :eek:

I would like those proponents for a simplified and expedient capital punishment system to answer this...

Originally posted by fluff
At what ratio of innocent to guilty would you see a problem?

ohio · Feb 10, 2004

I really don't want to express an opinion in this thread, but I do want to point out some facts. Death penalty IS in fact more expensive than life imprisonment due to the very necessary appeals process. As the system currently exists, we'd be lucky if we're getting a 2:98 innocent to guilty ratio.

If you want to eliminate the costs, you'd have to eliminate the appeals. The data is open to interpretation but I believe if we had actually executed those exonerated by the appeals process, the ratio would be closer to 25:75. Are you prepared to accept that?

DHRacer · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by fluff

Under our current laws if someone were to murder my wife or child and I then killed that person I could easily be on trial for murder. According to some here I would then be facing the death sentence because I would not lie and if I could not prove the other party's guilt I would be convicted.

there are two different points here... if someone broke into your house, and tried to kill your wife or child, and you stopped them by killing them, or they did kill your wife or child and were coming after you, that's self defense.

If someone killed your wife or child, and you hunted them down and killed them in revenge... that's murder.

ummbikes · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by RhinofromWA

with the health club they run now.....he could live for ever j/k kinda....neaky:

You ever hear the Chris Rock bit on the tossed salad man? Ever visted a jail?

It's not torture but it's no freaking picnic either.

LordOpie · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by DHRacer
If someone killed your wife or child, and you hunted them down and killed them in revenge... that's murder.

but it's ok if the state hunts them down for the husband?

I'd still like you to answer some fundament questions, but I know you'll just toss me a red herring instead :rolleyes:

DHRacer · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by LordOpie
but it's ok if the state hunts them down for the husband?

I'd still like you to answer some fundament questions, but I know you'll just toss me a red herring instead

so are you saying it's OKAY to go after your wifes/childs killer on your own? Letting the state hunt them down is the way it is now... how can you flip your sarcasm at me about that? I didn't make the laws. :rolleyes:

ask whatever questions you want... I'll tell you what I think.

LordOpie · Feb 10, 2004

Originally posted by DHRacer
so are you saying it's OKAY to go after your wifes/childs killer on your own?

I was indirectly asking you to follow the logic of your arguement, but that was wrong of me to ask you to do that, so we move on...

Originally posted by DHRacer
ask whatever questions you want... I'll tell you what I think.

(say, out of 100 found guilty) How many innocent people would it be ok to kill?

How do you reduce the cost of the legal system so that it's cheaper than life in prison and still allow for the appeals process?

How do you determine what's a capital crime (other than murder)?

capital punishment: the ultimate price?

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