[Dog Welder]

Treading into new waters here...I don't usually come to this part of town.

I personally believe in the death penalty and abortion. I believe that the death penalty is flawed and that the system needs to be changed. But lets face it....some people in this world just need to be put out to pasture and shot.

I find it hypocritical how people who support the death penalty, flip their s#it when it comes to abortion. Or support abortion yet oppose the death penalty.

Discuss...

 

[stevew]

A fetus never killed anyone. Inconvenience, maybe...

 

[Silver]

I find it hypocritical how people who support the death penalty, flip their s#it when it comes to abortion. Or support abortion yet oppose the death penalty.

Without getting into a long discussion about the nature of a fetus (and aren't those always fun) I have no problem being anti death penalty and pro-abortion rights. I don't approach it from a sacredness of life angle, and if death penalty wasn't so uncertain, and application of it so capricious, I would support it's use.

 

[Silver]

A fetus never killed anyone. Inconvenience, maybe...

Is that an argument for or against? And to which point?

Doesn't matter, I guess, because it's wrong anyways...

 

[stevew]

Is that an argument for or against? And to which point?

Neither.

Doesn't matter, I guess, because it's wrong anyways...

Wrong how? What is considered life?

 

[Changleen]

What about a carrot?

 

[fluff]

Oh shucks, I thought this was gonna be a wrestling thread. My bad.

Good names for wrestlers though...

 

[narlus]

Oh shucks, I thought this was gonna be a wrestling thread. My bad.

Good names for wrestlers though...

now that's some funny stuff!

 

[Ciaran]

While I would be against my wife having an abortion I do not want her right to have one taken away. For me the debate isn't about whether abortion is right or wrong, it's about our government telling us what we can or can't do with our bodies. Moral debates belong in the home or in church, not the courtroom.

IMO no government has the right to tell me what I can or can't do with my body!

 

[valve bouncer]

IMO no government has the right to tell me what I can or can't do with my body!

Do they have the right to tell ya you can't flash ya knob at nuns?

 

[manimal]

For me the debate isn't about whether abortion is right or wrong, it's about our government telling us what we can or can't do with our bodies.

and here is the heart of the issue. at what point does is it no longer just "your body". if another body is in your body....then who can decide what to do with that body.

to me, this is the only reason that there is an issue. if i want a tatoo with a certain ink that will give me cancer...i can get it. if i want to get drunk every night and kill my liver....so be it. but if i want to kill (hottly debated part here) the living body inside a pregnant woman....it's no longer a "personal" decision...it is now pluralistic.

 

[Changleen]

and here is the heart of the issue. at what point does is it no longer just "your body". if another body is in your body....then who can decide what to do with that body.

to me, this is the only reason that there is an issue. if i want a tatoo with a certain ink that will give me cancer...i can get it. if i want to get drunk every night and kill my liver....so be it. but if i want to kill (hottly debated part here) the living body inside a pregnant woman....it's no longer a "personal" decision...it is now pluralistic.

Only if you define a foetus as a 'person'. Which it clearly isn't, by any measure.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I'm personally pro-life, which includes the death penalty. I find it hypocritical to hear Christians who froth about abortion but turn a bind eye to capital punishment.......either all life is sacred or it's not.

 

[Silver]

I'm personally pro-life, which includes the death penalty. I find it hypocritical to hear Christians who froth about abortion but turn a bind eye to capital punishment.......either all life is sacred or it's not.

It's not. Who do you think is the pro-war contingent in this country? I'll bet if you drew a Venn Diagram with evangelical Christians and support for war (specifically Vietnam, Iraq, and our delightful escapades in Central and South America) you'd probably need a microscope to see that there were two circles.

If life is sacred, then killing innocent people in the name of fighting the godless Communists or Islamists shouldn't be justified.

edit: Dammit, quoted before I could fix it. Oh well...

 

[Changleen]

It's not. Who do you think is the pro-war contingent in this country? I'll bet if you drew a Venn Diagram with evangelical Christians and support for war in (specifically Vietnam, Iraq, and our delightful escapades in Central and South America) you'd probably need a microscope to see that there were two circles.

If life is sacred, then killing innocent people in the name of fighting the godless Communists or Islamists shouldn't be justified.

If all life is sacred, what the fack are you going to eat?

 

[enkidu]

If life is sacred, then killing innocent people in the name of fighting the godless Communists or Islamists shouldn't be justified.

I totally agree. And Silver. . . I just started "The Sorrows of Empire" (Chalmers Johnson), which you recommended. Very engrossing and convincing.

 

[Silver]

I totally agree. And Silver. . . I just started "The Sorrows of Empire" (Chalmers Johnson), which you recommended. Very engrossing and convincing.

I think MikeD originally suggested Blowback by Johnson. So if you enjoy that book, throw a little credit his way...

(C'mon, no one picked up on the godless Islamists thing? I thought it was funny.)

 

[enkidu]

If all life is sacred, what the fack are you going to eat?

Any edible plants and animals. By eating them the "sacred life" will continue to live within you.

 

[Changleen]

Define 'animal' and why it is any different from 'human'.

 

[Jabuttri]

There are two distinct problems with the death penalty. First it is far cheaper to hold someone in prison for the entirety of their natural life then to put them to death. To that people respond that the death penalty is meant to be a deterant. However, it has been proven through a great number of studies that the death penalty isn't really much of a deterant to someone who is ready to take another life. With those two facts laid out there is really no reason to have a death penalty.

abotrion is also in the same category for me. However i am no a life starts at conception believer but rather in suport of an "untuched existance" philosophy where life begins when a fetus stands a significant chance of survival if not tampered with. About a week or two after conception. This argument doesn not ban the morning after pill or anything like that.

 

[Jabuttri]

It's not. Who do you think is the pro-war contingent in this country? I'll bet if you drew a Venn Diagram with evangelical Christians and support for war (specifically Vietnam, Iraq, and our delightful escapades in Central and South America) you'd probably need a microscope to see that there were two circles.

If life is sacred, then killing innocent people in the name of fighting the godless Communists or Islamists shouldn't be justified.


Just for the Record Evangelical Christian who is not in suport of Bush or any of those wars. Im pretty sure KingHami is in the same ideological boat as well

 

[manimal]

Only if you define a foetus as a 'person'. Which it clearly isn't, by any measure.

again...the "hottly debated" part of the argument.

 

[kinghami3]

It's not. Who do you think is the pro-war contingent in this country? I'll bet if you drew a Venn Diagram with evangelical Christians and support for war (specifically Vietnam, Iraq, and our delightful escapades in Central and South America) you'd probably need a microscope to see that there were two circles.

If life is sacred, then killing innocent people in the name of fighting the godless Communists or Islamists shouldn't be justified.

edit: Dammit, quoted before I could fix it. Oh well...

Get your Evangelicals and your Conservatives straight in the first place. I believe the minority of Evangelicals support the war, and a diminishing majority of Conservatives support the war as well. Just take a sample from the Christians in this post, Andyman, JButtri, myself, and others, and you will find that our views are similar. We all are against abortion and the death penalty. Sometimes I get worked up over someone (Scott Peterson for example), but when I take a look back, I cannot bring myself to support killing a human in that context. War and self defense are different issues, but we must consider the reasoning behind each on a case by case basis. According to the Bible, Augustine's Just War, and views the Early Church on Christians in the Roman legions, I can say that killing is never good, yet is a necessity for the further preservation of human life. The War in Iraq does not fit in with that ideology.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Like others that have commented, I have no problem with supporting abortion rights and being anti-death penalty. Personally, I think the death penalty violates the cruel and unusual punishment statute in the Constitution. Plus, economic reasons and the problems in the implementation of the death penalty also make for good arguments against.

For abortion, the government should not have the right to tell a person what to do with his or her own body, provided one does not violate the rights of others. The anti-abortion element will have you believe that the rights of another are violated in an abortion, but not by the state's standard. The state is not allowed to go by religious arguments (i.e. the soul enters at conception) and must rely on the scientific definitions of when the foetus becomes human. Also, it is a private matter between a woman and her doctor, so the state really has no business intruding into her privacy to even inquire as to whether she is pregnant or not.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Get your Evangelicals and your Conservatives straight in the first place. I believe the minority of Evangelicals support the war, and a diminishing majority of Conservatives support the war as well. Just take a sample from the Christians in this post, Andyman, JButtri, myself, and others, and you will find that our views are similar. We all are against abortion and the death penalty. Sometimes I get worked up over someone (Scott Peterson for example), but when I take a look back, I cannot bring myself to support killing a human in that context. War and self defense are different issues, but we must consider the reasoning behind each on a case by case basis. According to the Bible, Augustine's Just War, and views the Early Church on Christians in the Roman legions, I can say that killing is never good, yet is a necessity for the further preservation of human life. The War in Iraq does not fit in with that ideology.

It is the vocal evangelicals (minority or not) that we hear the most from. If you do not like being grouped with them, perhaps you should speak with a louder voice? Protest instances where the evangelicals say they speak for your voice. They want to push for war? Protest against them. Make your voice heard so that the only voices we hear from the religious world aren't the most unreasonable.

 

[kinghami3]

It is the vocal evangelicals (minority or not) that we hear the most from. If you do not like being grouped with them, perhaps you should speak with a louder voice? Protest instances where the evangelicals say they speak for your voice. They want to push for war? Protest against them. Make your voice heard so that the only voices we hear from the religious world aren't the most unreasonable.

We do. I was in a particular protest that stopped I-5, which I am not particularly proud of. Until we get control of the media, it will remain that way.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

We do. I was in a particular protest that stopped I-5, which I am not particularly proud of. Until we get control of the media, it will remain that way.

Perhaps someone should call a fatwa on Pat Robertson?

Yes, the media are more than willing to report on the antics of these over-zealous evangelicals because it makes good copy. But, religious folks disavowing the evangelicals also makes good copy, and you do see articles from time to time, but not enough.

 

[Andyman_1970]

If life is sacred, then killing innocent people in the name of fighting the godless Communists or Islamists shouldn't be justified.

If we as followers of Jesus are going to take His teachings seriously I agree.............the problem is most Conservative Christians spend precious little time in the Gospels and more time in Paul's letters (which is backwards IMO)......and are thus ignorant of the difficult teachings of Jesus.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Perhaps someone should call a fatwa on Pat Robertson?

Don't get me started on Mr. Robertson.................:mumble:

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Don't get me started on Mr. Robertson.................:mumble:

That was supposed to be funny.

 

[Andyman_1970]

He makes me so ill I don't even take humorus comments about him well...............IMO he has done more to screw up the message of Jesus than anyone I can think of in recent years..........

 

[Old Man G Funk]

He makes me so ill I don't even take humorus comments about him well...............IMO he has done more to screw up the message of Jesus than anyone I can think of in recent years..........

Personally, if he didn't command such a loyal following, I think he would be one of the funniest people ever.

 

[kidwoo]

Personally, if he didn't command such a loyal following, I think he would be one of the funniest people ever.

I have no problem laughing at both him and his followers.

Then I remember that some of his followers vote............and I cry........in a manly sort of way.

 

[Andyman_1970]

If he wasn't a "spokesperson" for my faith so to speak, I'd feel the same way..................dude is out there..............

 

[enkidu]

Define 'animal' and why it is any different from 'human'.

A little tangential, but your musing about the validity of "eating human" brought to my mind some Biblical incidents. . . several incidents to tell the truth, but I'll restrain myself with only one for here. I hope you don't mind.

It's in John 6:31-58, where Christ famously says ". . . Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. . . For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him."

http://members.tripod.com/~Emmaus1/Emmaus.html will have the whole discussion about it, if you want to drill into it.

Yeah, so I guess, I do eat "human/God", just as Jews survived on mana, to remain in Him and He in me.

 

[Changleen]

I guess that's one passage that shouldn't be taken literally, then?

 

[enkidu]

I guess that's one passage that shouldn't be taken literally, then?

No, it's quite literal. All four gospels (eg. Luke 22:14-20) recount the last Passover supper he had with his apostles the night before he was crucified. He said, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. . . Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me." And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you."

 

[JRogers]

Hmmm...Biblical Criticism on a Tripod site...mmmmmmm...suspect...


Anyway, yeah, Robertson is a nutter. Gives religion a bad name. He's the kind of clown that churches, if so many of them didn't have their heads up their own a$$es, should be renouncing. Absurd. I can't stand that crap.

 

[ummbikes]

If he wasn't a "spokesperson" for my faith so to speak, I'd feel the same way..................dude is out there..............

I am the rebel (not Republican....) Christian at my company (owned by a devout Christian, run by a former pastor, another former pastor is a salesman, my partner is a worship leader at our church) at any rate there are quite a few beleivers who could be called right wingers and even they are ready to have Robertson committed to an institution.


That said I am on record as being anti-abortion, anti-death penalty, and anti-war.


Thou shall not kill. Exodus 20:13

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Romans 12:19

 

[enkidu]

Hmmm...Biblical Criticism on a Tripod site...mmmmmmm...suspect...

OK, try "Catechism of the Catholic Church", 1994. 2000 edition has useful Glossary and Index Analyticus. See under "Eucharist" and "Mass" for full discussions. Stuffy enough for you?