[Westy]

I don't think that's true.

Factcheck: How electric vehicles help to tackle climate change

Electric vehicles (EVs) are an important part of meeting global goals on climate change. They feature prominently in mitigation pathways that limit warming to well-below 2C or 1.5C, which would be inline with the Paris Agreement’s targets.

www.carbonbrief.org

I am talking about the person who dumps a 5 year old BMW to get a Tesla because they want to reduce emissions is probably making things worse.

Now replacing that trashed BMW say after it gets totaled in an accident with a Tesla, yes, that has benefits.

Even with recycled metal, the power alone required to refine and melt aluminium/steel is staggering.

 

[Toshi]

But the 5 year old BMW isn’t trashed, all of its sunk carbon cost lost.

 

[Changleen]

I am talking about the person who dumps a 5 year old BMW to get a Tesla because they want to reduce emissions is probably making things worse.

Now replacing that trashed BMW say after it gets totaled in an accident with a Tesla, yes, that has benefits.

Even with recycled metal, the power alone required to refine and melt aluminium/steel is staggering.

Ideally that power is generated from renewable sources.

 

[Adventurous]

Ideally that power is generated from renewable sources.

% power generated from renewable resources
Japan = 10%
USA = 17%
Mexico = 26%
Germany = 27%

While 100% would be ideal, the present scenario is far from that.

 

[Changleen]

Renewable production is growing exponentially and it is partly up to us as consumers to vote with our wallets to ensure that corporations are clear we want that to continue.

 

[eric strt6]

California had double the US average in renewables

2018 Total System Electric Generation

www.energy.ca.gov

 

[maxyedor]

People like them because they last a really long time. But the people who like that are the ones buying in the used market. Someone who is laying out $90k for one probably doesn't give a shit about how well it works in 5 years.

Pretty much. There's a seemingly limitless number of people who drop $100k on a new car every 2-3 years around here, yet the local Toyota dealer has had the same LC in stock for like 18 months. You've got to be committed to drop nearly six figures on a Toyota with a crappy Toyota interior when you can get a Range Rover for the same price. In order for it to make any sense at all, you have to plan on keeping it forever. All 38 of those people have bought their Land Cruisers, so Toyota is officially out of US customers.

I really wish Toyota has focused on the LC instead of building the Sequoia, but then they sell loads of $55k Sequoias and nearly zero $85k LCs, and I don't know how they'd bring the cost down on the LC without turning it into a tremendous pile of shit like the Sequoia, thus the LC's must die to make room for more Sequoias on the lot.

i think this ICON LC i saw in telluride has the shittiest looking paint job ever for 180k...

View attachment 150618

Icons are true dumpster fires. I've unfucked a few of them, the chassis engineering is just a trainwreck. It's baffling because it's such an easy chassis to make work, but it doesn't. Steering is a nightmare, rear suspension is all wonky, welds look like they're done by a drunk pigeon, etc. I think the bad paint is supposed to be part of it's charm though. Personally, I prefer a bit less "charm" in my $180k suvs. It'll be interesting to see if Icon survives now that there's a plethora of importers doing LCs and Defenders half the price.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Pretty much. There's a seemingly limitless number of people who drop $100k on a new car every 2-3 years around here, yet the local Toyota dealer has had the same LC in stock for like 18 months. You've got to be committed to drop nearly six figures on a Toyota with a crappy Toyota interior when you can get a Range Rover for the same price. In order for it to make any sense at all, you have to plan on keeping it forever. All 38 of those people have bought their Land Cruisers, so Toyota is officially out of US customers.

I really wish Toyota has focused on the LC instead of building the Sequoia, but then they sell loads of $55k Sequoias and nearly zero $85k LCs, and I don't know how they'd bring the cost down on the LC without turning it into a tremendous pile of shit like the Sequoia, thus the LC's must die to make room for more Sequoias on the lot.





Icons are true dumpster fires. I've unfucked a few of them, the chassis engineering is just a trainwreck. It's baffling because it's such an easy chassis to make work, but it doesn't. Steering is a nightmare, rear suspension is all wonky, welds look like they're done by a drunk pigeon, etc. I think the bad paint is supposed to be part of it's charm though. Personally, I prefer a bit less "charm" in my $180k suvs. It'll be interesting to see if Icon survives now that there's a plethora of importers doing LCs and Defenders half the price.

The LC, 200 or even the 70, are built like commercial vehicles, and it isnt really made for the US.

Its made for developing countries basically. They sell about 300k per year (70/150/200), mostly in Australia.
In my neck of the world, LCs outsell Grand Cherokees and Honda CRVs.

If you spend most of your time on poorly mantained dirt roads, doing 50mph over football sized potholes for 100 miles per day.... it makes absolute sense. There are very few passenger cars in the market able to take day day after day for 5 years.
Your similarly priced Designo Mercedes GLS or whatchumacallit Range Rover will rattle like a paint can after a couple months and will blow a shock once a month, and then spend 2 weeks parked while spares arrive each time you break something.

Its image of quality and desirability does not come from lasting 25 years... but from not falling apart after 5 years of hard non-american highway use. They still sound "tight" after 40k miles of dirt roads at 50mph.

 

[SkaredShtles]

I would take a vintage 1970s FJ40 over any of the new stuffView attachment 150602

Neighbor up the street has one of those. It is currently being used as a storage unit for a bunch of shit.

 

[eric strt6]

Neighbor up the street has one of those. It is currently being used as a storage unit for a bunch of shit.

Kill him, kill him now

 

[gonefirefightin]

to this I can hear the weeping, gnashing of teeth and lamentations of overlanders across the country in mourning. twill be followed by the hispter like rush for the last ones before "the man" swallows them up.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Many years ago, I worked for Toyota.
There were 3 distinctive LC200 buyers I remember.

1) Paranoid old school businessman/gvmt official. Old business guy, gray hair/same chauffeur for the last 20+ years or very dark tinted with diplomatic plates.. usually us embassy/DEA.. always armored, bull bumpers and fire extinguisher/ external tear gas canisters. The car is waxed weekly, and fires suppressant/tear gas has to be replaced over time intervals because its never used. Drives 5k miles per year, and comes for an oil change once a year, but every 6 months for brake pads because the car weights 5 tons.

2) The Yuppie world explorer. 30something trustafarian with a knack for jungle exploration. Guy drives 30k miles per year and the car is kitted with tires, suspension, snorkel and is driven hard. Comes and chat for service... and buys a new one before the old one reaches 100k miles and starts creaking.

3) The shady "where does this guy gets the money?". 30-50 something, expensive (and tacky) italian black/gold/white clothes and $20k watch. Shows up at the store at 11am on a tuesday with a bunch of friends and appears to have unlimited free time and no discernible job title/known ocupation.
Pays cash or credit card, car is registered to a single person and not under a company (which means lost 20%+ in tax credit). Buys car and is never seen again. Years later, you posibly hear on the news about him being arrested for drug/illegal mining/money laundering.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Kill him, kill him now

Just sits there with shit piled up... never moving.

 

[Jm_]

But the 5 year old BMW isn’t trashed, all of its sunk carbon cost lost.

Have you owned a new BMW past the “free maintenance” period and well into the miles? Unfortunately, they have become so complex and over-engineered that there’s virtually no chance of the thing lasting 10 years without thousands and thousands of dollars sunk into it. I remember one day where the “rear computer” just decided to not work and every electronic bit rear of the front seats was dead. The motor in that car is the subject of a class action lawsuit because of a cheap plastic guide on the engine timing chain that grenades the engine around 70K. The higher the performance, the less likely it’s going to work in a few years. They are engineered to sell and work fine for a few years and then it’s someone else’s problem. Not every case is so extreme, but it’s been moving in this general direction for a while and I would never recommend to buy one of these cars with long term life as a consideration.

Which brings me to the point about electric cars. While it’s true that it’s often better to “keep what you have”, it’s a reality that people are going to buy new cars. No matter what, they are going to buy new cars, for a variety of reasons. That’s where it makes more sense to buy electric, if it can meet your needs and you are realistic about your needs.

 

[Jm_]

The LC, 200 or even the 70, are built like commercial vehicles, and it isnt really made for the US.

Its made for developing countries basically. They sell about 300k per year (70/150/200), mostly in Australia.

If you spend most of your time on poorly mantained dirt roads, doing 50mph over football sized potholes for 100 miles per day.... it makes absolute sense.

US...civilized nation w/infrastructure...

 

[stevew]

Just sits there with shit piled up... never moving.

View attachment 150664

late 70's

original paint

lite rust in the doors....

would love/cherish....

 

[eric strt6]

^^^ me too

 

[stoney]

Have you owned a new BMW past the “free maintenance” period and well into the miles? Unfortunately, they have become so complex and over-engineered that there’s virtually no chance of the thing lasting 10 years without thousands and thousands of dollars sunk into it. I remember one day where the “rear computer” just decided to not work and every electronic bit rear of the front seats was dead. The motor in that car is the subject of a class action lawsuit because of a cheap plastic guide on the engine timing chain that grenades the engine around 70K. The higher the performance, the less likely it’s going to work in a few years. They are engineered to sell and work fine for a few years and then it’s someone else’s problem. Not every case is so extreme, but it’s been moving in this general direction for a while and I would never recommend to buy one of these cars with long term life as a consideration.

Which brings me to the point about electric cars. While it’s true that it’s often better to “keep what you have”, it’s a reality that people are going to buy new cars. No matter what, they are going to buy new cars, for a variety of reasons. That’s where it makes more sense to buy electric, if it can meet your needs and you are realistic about your needs.

Hence why I want a car, that if ones stays on the maintenance schedule, will effectively last forever. I'll just wait until it's time for me to get another car (probably about when Haley takes the Subaru in 8 years) and get a low* mileage LC/LX (probably GX/Prado though). The caveat of course being that we haven't created an off-road capable vehicle with an easily 300+ mile range and the necessary infrastructure to charge the vehicle wherever. I really, really hope that I have an electric option for a proper off-road capable vehicle, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

 

[Jm_]

Hence why I want a car, that if ones stays on the maintenance schedule, will effectively last forever. I'll just wait until it's time for me to get another car (probably about when Haley takes the Subaru in 8 years) and get a low* mileage LC/LX (probably GX/Prado though). The caveat of course being that we haven't created an off-road capable vehicle with an easily 300+ mile range and the necessary infrastructure to charge the vehicle wherever. I really, really hope that I have an electric option for a proper off-road capable vehicle, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Well, you could always just take a generator and some gas in the bed...

There is some talk of getting the M3 Touring over here. Part of me wants a badass wagon like that. The other part of me knows it's just a ticking time bomb with that much high-strung in that displacement.

A Subie or a Toyota is still a good bet for the longer haul.

 

[vinny4130]

Lithium mining isn’t mentioned much when people are comparing ICE to E-cars. Not that I’m against electric I would like to have one for the day to day, but to me the only way to feel like I’m making some difference is to have my own solar charging station at home.

 

[Toshi]

Lithium mining isn’t mentioned much when people are comparing ICE to E-cars. Not that I’m against electric I would like to have one for the day to day, but to me the only way to feel like I’m making some difference is to have my own solar charging station at home.

There are many dozens of well to wheels comparisons that include mining. Also recall that to get crude oil from the ground, refine it, and transport to the end destination is not a clean process either.

 

[6thElement]

There are many dozens of well to wheels comparisons that include mining. Also recall that to get crude oil from the ground, refine it, and transport to the end destination is not a clean process either.

Fake news. Oil is clean unlike @Nick 's ear cancer wind turbines.

 

[stoney]

Well, you could always just take a generator and some gas in the bed...

There is some talk of getting the M3 Touring over here. Part of me wants a badass wagon like that. The other part of me knows it's just a ticking time bomb with that much high-strung in that displacement.

A Subie or a Toyota is still a good bet for the longer haul.

I had the chance to drive an e450 wagon a while back. That thing was a ton of fun and I could drive it just as hard as I drove my M on the road. As much as I'd want an e63 AMG, it's hard to justify the extra $60k and lack of reliability of an AMG. And that's one of those cars that does last. MB E-class cars last forever when you stick to the maintenance schedule. It's part of why the truly wealthy (the sleeper wealthy) drive those and LCs; while they cost a lot up front, they live forever.

 

[stevew]

The motor in that car is the subject of a class action lawsuit because of a cheap plastic guide on the engine timing chain that grenades the engine around 70K.

similar to the VW VR6....

no one has made a metal guide for the engine like they did for the VR6....?

 

[stevew]

i wonder how long the batteries would last in a electric 4WD when you bury it up to the axles in mud and try to get it unstuck....

 

[Changleen]

Electric motors would be more suitable for that task than ICE and a gearbox.

 

[stevew]

Electric motors would be more suitable for that task than ICE and a gearbox.

so when you are stuck out in the middle of nowhere....take comfort in that?

 

[Changleen]

The range argument is a bit lame. Already good EVs basically match ICE and frankly, the ‘my lifestyle will only be 99.9% perfect’ excuse to avoid a tiny, tiny bit of personal responsibility to help the entire planet and, as a privileged human, set a good example, is not a great look.

 

[stevew]

The range argument is a bit lame.

well....what would you buy a electric 4WD for....mall crawling?

i just asked how long the batteries would last in a electric 4WD if it had happened to get stuck?

do they purposely get them stuck when testing them to see how long the charge would last if this should happen?

not anti electric in the least bit.

 

[stevew]

The caveat of course being that we haven't created an off-road capable vehicle with an easily 300+ mile range and the necessary infrastructure to charge the vehicle wherever. I really, really hope that I have an electric option for a proper off-road capable vehicle, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

do the national parks have charging stations....one thing i have not noticed....although a tesla did blow by me on trail ridge road while i was taking in the scenery...

 

[stevew]

As people who enjoy the great outdoors, I find it a little weird (and frankly a bit gross/irresponsible) that any of us are still planning on buying ICE cars. If you have the cash and time for restorations, why not convert to an electric powertrain?

and to answer this question....there is a company converting old landcruisers to electric....i posted a picture of it somewhere....

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I had the chance to drive an e450 wagon a while back. That thing was a ton of fun and I could drive it just as hard as I drove my M on the road. As much as I'd want an e63 AMG, it's hard to justify the extra $60k and lack of reliability of an AMG. And that's one of those cars that does last. MB E-class cars last forever when you stick to the maintenance schedule. It's part of why the truly wealthy (the sleeper wealthy) drive those and LCs; while they cost a lot up front, they live forever.

Just get the E63s.
Get a used one with 30-40k miles and sell it before 80k miles.
Besides tires (which can last as little as an oil change), you probably wont spend more than an extra $2k-$3k on service/repairs vs other $60k cars over those 50k miles.

You wont regret it

 

[Jm_]

I had the chance to drive an e450 wagon a while back. That thing was a ton of fun and I could drive it just as hard as I drove my M on the road. As much as I'd want an e63 AMG, it's hard to justify the extra $60k and lack of reliability of an AMG. And that's one of those cars that does last. MB E-class cars last forever when you stick to the maintenance schedule. It's part of why the truly wealthy (the sleeper wealthy) drive those and LCs; while they cost a lot up front, they live forever.

Even the electric-hybrid system of the V6 seems insane complex though, I'd agree if we were talking more old school engine or lower boost, but I'm skeptical of the electronics and high end drivetrain
components.

 

[dexter]

Hence why I want a car, that if ones stays on the maintenance schedule, will effectively last forever. I'll just wait until it's time for me to get another car (probably about when Haley takes the Subaru in 8 years) and get a low* mileage LC/LX (probably GX/Prado though). The caveat of course being that we haven't created an off-road capable vehicle with an easily 300+ mile range and the necessary infrastructure to charge the vehicle wherever. I really, really hope that I have an electric option for a proper off-road capable vehicle, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Newer tundra checks those boxes, fuel range varies between 300-500+. Long term toyota guy here, actually only vehicles I have ever owned. 96 4runner sold at 170+k, 00 manual 4runner with the trd supercharger (engine exploded 2 days after trading it in at 120k), 07 tundra 150+k, 12 tundra 80k, 14 tundra 96k, 16 tundra 90ishk, and a 20 tundra with 30k on the clock thus far. My wife also has a 14 4runner with 80k on the clock. Big big truck and definitely guzzles some gas, but it is bulletproof and gets me anywhere and will tow just about anything within reason.

To answer @Changleen, I would LOVE to have an EV truck that could get me to the places I wanted to go hauling the things I want, but it does not exist yet. I work for Patagonia's fly fishing division and strive to keep my life pretty damn clean and the vehicle side of things is incredibly difficult. A lot of the places I go to fish, ride my bike, camp, etc are way off the grid and require a lot of "range". I also tow a handful of different boats with me on these adventures or my pop up trailer- EV's cant handle that at all. A year ago I popped into a tesla dealership and started poking around a model x. First things first, i would destroy it on a normal dirt road, let alone a few of the sporty boat ramps we use. Second off is while they are rated to tow a pretty considerable amount of weight, the range drops down to laughable numbers so its a non starter for me..... and that was before I priced one out and was hit with Tesla's incredibly BS price inflation at point of sale. The cyber truck will need to prove itself for a year or so in the right hands before its considered an option.

Word on the street is the LC will be back in more of a utilitarian FJ style build in the future, fingers crossed. Have always had a soft spot for the cruisers. My brother in law has an iron pig project and an 80's series that he is always tinkering with.

I see the future of trucks/ offroad vehicles being a hybrid EV gas or diesel option, until they can really hone in the battery systems to maintain range under load.

 

[Changleen]

Relevant:

 

[jimmydean]

The wife has decided her next rig is either hybrid or plug in EV. I replaced my old truck with basically the same truck, only a little newer. The old truck went 220k miles with basically no maintenance while this one should go 300k+ maintained. The LS is a proven platform and I got the 5.3 vs the 4.8 because it has a little more power while getting about the same mileage.

I will be selling my car in the Spring and will only have the truck and a street legal dirt bike for me. I also plan to WFH for good, so I will only drive in a few times a month, if at all.

I love the idea of an EV truck and I still might get one of Ohio's bikes on the used market if I can also find at least a second battery for it.

 

[stevew]

@eric strt6

 

[eric strt6]

I'll take two please, no not the shirt

 

[Changleen]

A lot of the places I go to fish, ride my bike, camp, etc are way off the grid and require a lot of "range". I also tow a handful of different boats with me on these adventures or my pop up trailer

This is the attitude I fundamentally have an issue with. As above, the unwillingness to make a tiny compromise for the greater good. It’s not just dexter, it applies unfortunately to millions of richer, more privileged people round the world.

I want to do X, exactly as I wish. Doing it will cause a disproportionately large amount of externalised damage (especially compared to the outcomes) that I don’t have to look square at or think about, so I will just do it anyway because I am fundamentally a selfish cunt.

How about we take some personal fucking responsibility and decide, for example, that driving a gas-guzzling 4x4 hundreds of miles off-road to catch a few fucking fish for fun is a dick move, and just maybe, fish a little closer to home? (Same applies to riding bikes.)

The planet is literally on fire. Coral reefs are being destroyed, the ocean is acidifying and warming at an incredible rate, etc etc etc, threatening everything dexter and all of us actually value about our fishing trips or whatever but people willfully practice some of the most 1%y, destructive behaviour to keep doing it exactly like they want.

 

[canadmos]

This is the attitude I fundamentally have an issue with. As above, the unwillingness to make a tiny compromise for the greater good. It’s not just dexter, it applies unfortunately to millions of richer, more privileged people round the world.

I want to do X, exactly as I wish. Doing it will cause a disproportionately large amount of externalised damage (especially compared to the outcomes) that I don’t have to look square at or think about, so I will just do it anyway because I am fundamentally a selfish cunt.

How about we take some personal fucking responsibility and decide, for example, that driving a gas-guzzling 4x4 hundreds of miles off-road to catch a few fucking fish for fun is a dick move, and just maybe, fish a little closer to home? (Same applies to riding bikes.)

The planet is literally on fire. Coral reefs are being destroyed, the ocean is acidifying and warming at an incredible rate, etc etc etc, threatening everything dexter and all of us actually value about our fishing trips or whatever but people willfully practice some of the most 1%y, destructive behaviour to keep doing it exactly like they want.

Fish closer to home in populated areas? Sure, but then there will be no fish (if they aren't already gone).

Do you eat meat, own a cell phone etc etc?

I understand your point, but I doubt @dexter is out there rolling coal or taking selfies in poppy fields.

The rich got rich by not giving a fuck. They won't change.

The earth is going to get taken out by another spinning ball of rock and ice or something one day. Calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean, everything will be okay....sooner or later.