[wood booger]

A little bird holding a joint let it slip that a certain company from the Norcal coast is going to be unveiling a new carbon DH bike very soon.

Perhaps @ Sea Otter?
For sure in time for WC season!

Keep your eyes open and your spy cams ready!

 

[marshalolson]

santa cruz? old news man...

 

[Pepper Brooks]

I've heard rumors of more than one company on that bandwagon this season...

 

[IH8Rice]

santa cruz? old news man...

they have a carbon DH bike?

 

[thom9719]

and it's a 29'er!

-KT

 

[jonKranked]

gt lobo

 

[wood booger]

santa cruz? old news man...

Well, the bird was a bit out of it but I hadn't heard of a SC carbon DH bike yet.

Nomad yes, but DH bike no.

 

[IH8Rice]

gt lobo

fury?

 

[norbar]

 

[Trekrules]

gt lobo

I thougth the GT Lobo's are mostly made out of Alloy

 

[time-bomb]

Kestrel Roubicon!!!

 

[xy9ine]

an 8" travel super light slack & slammed carbon v8 from sc would rock ass.

 

[TheTruth]

If you have a carbon dh bike, you are doing it wrong.

 

[isabbisr]

If you have a carbon dh bike, you are doing it wrong.

Is that the truth?

 

[Bicyclist]

Is that the truth?

No, it's TheTruth, not to be confused with the truth as the two often differ greatly.

 

[Hesh To Steel]

If you have a carbon dh bike, you are doing it wrong.

If this is wrong, I don't wanna be right.

 

[Jason4]

an 8" travel super light slack & slammed carbon v8 from sc would rock ass.

If you have a carbon dh bike, you are doing it wrong.

Ironic that these two posts are back to back. If I'm not mistaken I drove through Vancouver last summer on my way to Whistler and was next to xy8ine in traffic trying to check out his Lahar. He might have a good opinion on carbon DH bikes.

 

[GoodbyePorkPie]

Diamond Back? Cannondale Raven lol Trek Y bike?

Those GTs are holding up real well, plenty here been ripping it up on them!

Still my only issue with Carbon is 2 fold quality of the carbon and longevity, its not that carbon is not strong its stronger but also, its got no give, flex can be manipulated but thats not the same thing, external damage revels nothing only an X-ray can determine if the composite is fractured beyond the outer scars!

Then there's the higher cost, a carbon equivalent of a so so brand is going to be as much if not more than a high end frame say from Intense Turner etc etc

To lower costs is lowering the quality of the Carbon it can end in a vicious circle is this good for Joe hack, not all of us rotate our bikes every year!

For pro yep no issue must have the best and most competitive, but the Fury has not dominated that's no reflection on the bike , but its also not showing a necessary advantage, that is more obvious in Road or even in XC.

to me for pure performance there's more benefit in carbon rims and lower rolling weight for better acceleration to strength ratio!

Carbon frames will only add cost, potentially lower quality due to the quality of the carbon, process manufacturing etc jmo I'm a huge carbon fan having windsurfed around the globe with the stuff since the early 90s it rules in sailing as long as its looked after. Carbon breaking at speed is scary as heel Ive only ever broken one Boom @ over 30knots and a Mast thank gawd it was on water but it still had its consequences and was dam scary when it went and loud without warning.

That Fury is sex on toast however, I still not would not buy one though

 

[worship_mud]

If you have a carbon dh bike, you are doing it wrong.

No, it's TheTruth, not to be confused with the truth as the two often differ greatly.

not in this case.

 

[Huck Banzai]

Carbon SC's run ~400$ more than the alu versions, 'big whoop'!

 

['size]

carbon v10.

didn't see anything from sea otter but cedric mentions something here. start listening around 08:10 - he mentions a new v10 for him and the syndicate and 'different materials' around 9:00.

cedric interview

 

[dhr-racer]

i saw that to, i also noticed the team seems to be running the same rigs as last year leading up to the model launch, they usually change the paint between seasons at least

 

[xy9ine]

Ironic that these two posts are back to back. If I'm not mistaken I drove through Vancouver last summer on my way to Whistler and was next to xy8ine in traffic trying to check out his Lahar. He might have a good opinion on carbon DH bikes.

this will be my 4th season on mine. yes, i'm a believer in the potential of the material - done right, of course.

 

[GoodbyePorkPie]

Those Lahars are legendary, here they been handed around so many people second hand its like Stifflers mom, keeps coming back 4 more and still takes a beating, pity it went the way it did, could have been like similar to biking like what the Britten did the the big 4 at Daytona back in the day, now that was and still is a bike, and a dude as well plus one hell of an engineer

 

[no skid marks]

What's the second fully faired Britten in the back ground? Don't remember that one.
The Britten is a bad argument for carbon, it's forks snapped, however, that was over 20 years ago now, and under engineered, or improperly manufactured so still not a worthy debate.
Still one of the best motorcycles ever made though, soooo trick.
I don't trurst the big players any more than the little guys to build a carbon bike right. It'll no doubt be built to within an inch of it's life, and not last, that's my guess. Myabe the first round will be over built. The GT looks good astheticly I reckon.

 

[IH8Rice]

I don't trurst the big players any more than the little guys to build a carbon bike right.

id be definitely more inclined to buy a carbon bike from a "big" company rather than a small manufacturer.
the amount of r&d that a big company like Trek or Specialized can put into their carbon bike projects is night and day b/w a small company like Lahar.
and the warranty issue is also another reason why a bigger company would be better.

 

[P.T.W]

What's the second fully faired Britten in the back ground? Don't remember that one.
The Britten is a bad argument for carbon, it's forks snapped, however, that was over 20 years ago now, and under engineered, or improperly manufactured so still not a worthy debate.
Still one of the best motorcycles ever made though, soooo trick.
I don't trurst the big players any more than the little guys to build a carbon bike right. It'll no doubt be built to within an inch of it's life, and not last, that's my guess. Myabe the first round will be over built. The GT looks good astheticly I reckon.

Skids....The Britten in the background was the model before the V1000, as far as i can remember it was loosely based around Ducati parts unlike the V1000 which was %95 Britten .
The only fork that ever snapped where the very first ones ever made and they broke on the first test of the V1000 just weeks before it's debut a Daytona..... they where redesigned and remanufactured and as far as i know there never was another structural failure with the fork.
Now back to the subject at hand.

 

[slowmtb]

Skids....The Britten in the background was the model before the V1000, as far as i can remember it was loosely based around Ducati parts unlike the V1000 which was %95 Britten .
The only fork that ever snapped where the very first ones ever made and they broke on the first test of the V1000 just weeks before it's debut a Daytona..... they where redesigned and remanufactured and as far as i know there never was another structural failure with the fork.
Now back to the subject at hand.

The bike in the background is the "Aero de zero" ( if thats how its spelt, been a while ) , Mike Brosnan still has it in his lounge behind his couch, his is the red version . It was Duclattery based with Denco cylinders etc
For the record - the original front end did break ( at Ruapuna with Jason McEwan on board ) , the structure was too stiff and was re-engineered with "flex" so that it no longer portrayed the "brittle" traits blah blah
That Britten is the original V1100 ( ridden by Andrew Stroud at Johns funeral ) , replaced buy the V1000 which are still raced to this day - last year 3 of them raced here in NZ at Ruapuna, veeeery cool

Anyway theres a lot more to it than that, I spent a lot of time with these guys - some interesting reading for those interested:

http://www.britten.co.nz/history/aerobike.html

 

[LukeD]

hmmm Ducati AMERICA is in norcal, maybe they'll bring one of these carbon beauties to sea otter, besides that is laguna seca...haha wishful thinking..

 

[GoodbyePorkPie]

Ah did not know that about the fork, first Ive heard of it so shows how little that issue was, I still remember the 50cent US made part the only thing they didn't manufacture failed at there first Daytona, not next year though!

Ive seen the bike raced a few time by AS and @ the Wanaka air show back in 94 that bike always gets me, have the Video too LOL
Will read that link cheers for the info guys good oil.

Also
Considering most of it was made at his home is a testament to the skills of all involved.

That aside back on track, I do agree though making something like that at the highest end is one thing, they only used the very best and best they could manufacture, regardless of how they did it, that does not mean because they were not big boys they couldn't or didn't do it better. That bike still stands the test of time some 20yrs later. If JB was still alive the big 4 would have been very worried where he could have gone for sure!

To say you trust Trek or Specialisd is fine that does not mean they use the best materials or in this case the best carbon, they may do lots of research FEA etc, but that is as much about best bang for market at highest units for profit, the Lahar or the Britten might be low key in terms of molds layups and tooling but the carbon quality and execution is not in doubt nor are there techniques and abilities to produce the best!

I'm not a Lahar fanboi either, but I respect what he made, not necessarily the dude. JB different story hes a Kiwi Legend end of story.

The big boys are about $$ profit, that's fine, they will cut corners and quality over a small builder, who only gets one chance aesthetically and functionally they have to be superior to compete against the big boys!

They also do it for passion not pure $$$

I know for a fact if you compare a Giant TCR with a Colnago made in Italy not there cheaper models in Taiwan, the quality of carbon is not close!
The original C40 lugs were made by Ferrari, yep in their factory and each frame size required different lugs, not all the same say like Giant in each size this does not compromise GEO fit and performance, I doubt th Fury is built that way for ex either!

Giant make a price product which for its intended use is safe and fine but within reason, I'm sure they have there warranties as do Specialised [heaps, Trek, Scott] all there carbon bikes have had a high mortality rates.

The Fury from what Ive seen here has seemed to stand up well, though Ive sen one top riders chain stays pitted to hell, that would worry me. I'm a hack though and he would be given a new rig for next season so that's the difference!

But hey if you trust the big boys fine, that does not mean the we guys are not better, in fact the likes of Lahar and Britten were or became carbon specialists the big guys rely on others or if not its not there core business, its stupid to say these guys are not as good.

That said I would prefer a CNC DH bike myself over carbon, the price and the quality for us Joes will be ridiculous and carbon is an ever increasing costly material due to the demand, it will get harder to source and not very sustainable imo, not good for MTB in the long run, its purely about #s and $$s lack of ideas to create moar the only reason it's going this way, no different to 10/11spd.

For Pro or top racer at the highest levels I can see a point, still see more benefit in the wheels than the frame for DH, DH is not road or XC the gap if there is one is very small, Mick did not dominate last year, and World was that test so rest is history imo!

Its like the SP vs mini link debate still years after the SPbeen around it can and does still deliver @ WC land every other evel that's good enough for me though I'm not anti link design either, or carbon or 10spd, just apply it where it makes sense, not just because consumerism is in rampant destruction!

 

[no skid marks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[MEDIA=youtube]1fUfAOwY5yw[/MEDIA]

 

[slowmtb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[MEDIA=youtube]1fUfAOwY5yw[/MEDIA][/QUOTE] :thumb: - haha I forgot about that. I still have the full footage of that on tape lying around here somewhere ( on video tape lol ). He does about 1 1/2 laps before the battery runs out :weee:

 

[MrPlow]

Personally from my experiences I don't think frame material is a factor in the big time /small time manufacture argument. An alluminium frame or a steel frame can be built just as badly as a carbon. I would never trust a steel frame that I have made myself because I know nothing about welding.

 

[demo8razor]

Carbon is a lot easier to mess up than steel or aluminum. There are many more competant welders out there than composite people. There are a lot of people who think they are good with composites but really are not. Due to this, companies will need to hand lay up and vacuum bag or use an autoclave, each method is labor intensive, and autoclaves are not exactly cheap. I do not think carbon joints, not sure the correct term, the pipe fittings if you will used on road bikes are strong enough for downhill there is almost no surface area to bond the 2 carbon parts together with. Also, once carbon takes a hit or something, it can be structurally compromised and on something as stiff as a bike, you can not check it. Carbon arrows can be flexed, and if you hear anything or it just breaks then you know. I dropped a carbon pipe from probably a distance of 5 feet and due to that fall, that particular pipe could no longer be used for the jib cranes we were making for the military. Carbon also comes apart after impacts most of the time.

There is no doubt carbon can be made strong enough, but impacts is what you have to worry about. Most offshore boats are now made with a lot of carbon, but these boats also have a lot of kevlar in key areas so that the boat does not come apart. Kevlar is very heavy when compared to carbon.

All of this is in regards to carbon DH bikes for the average rider. I can definitely see pros and those in WC's using them, with huge budgets and that are willing to replace them as necessary.

 

[slyfink]

- haha I forgot about that. I still have the full footage of that on tape lying around here somewhere ( on video tape lol ). He does about 1 1/2 laps before the battery runs out

pardon my ignorance, but why is that impressive. Some guy blows by him at the beginning (@ 0:52), like he's practically standing still, and he never catches up. am I missing something?

 

[no skid marks]

pardon my ignorance, but why is that impressive. Some guy blows by him at the beginning (@ 0:52), like he's practically standing still, and he never catches up. am I missing something?

Most powerful bike at the TT that year, built in some guys shed, nuff said.
No frame, engine was a stressed member, no telescopic forks. I don't think that's a race run, purely just impressive to hear it. Many other inovations, from memory, one peice crank cases and cylinders.
I'm impressed when I see a nice new sports car, no it's never being thrashed like it should, but it still impresses me.
It's about the bike, not the rider.

 

[P.T.W]

Kevlar is very heavy when compared to carbon.

Compared in what way?

 

[P.T.W]

pardon my ignorance, but why is that impressive. Some guy blows by him at the beginning (@ 0:52), like he's practically standing still, and he never catches up. am I missing something?

I dont mean to derail this thread even more but, Slyfink basically John Britten and his Motorcycle are legends in the motorcycle world.
The V1100/V1000 set so many world records and had so many world firsts for motorcycles its silly...and yes the 1st 2 of the 12 built where basically built in the shed out the back of his house.
If anyones interested...Britten V1000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Britten_V1000.jpg" class="image"><img alt="Britten V1000.jpg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Britten_V1000.jpg/300px-Britten_V1000.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/4/40/Britten_V1000.jpg/300px-Britten_V1000.jpg
http://www.britten.co.nz/
John Britten - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Brittenstatic.jpg" class="image"><img alt="Brittenstatic.jpg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d5/Brittenstatic.jpg/200px-Brittenstatic.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/d/d5/Brittenstatic.jpg/200px-Brittenstatic.jpg

 

[MrPlow]

There is no doubt carbon can be made strong enough, but impacts is what you have to worry about. Most offshore boats are now made with a lot of carbon, but these boats also have a lot of kevlar in key areas so that the boat does not come apart. Kevlar is very heavy when compared to carbon.

All of this is in regards to carbon DH bikes for the average rider. I can definitely see pros and those in WC's using them, with huge budgets and that are willing to replace them as necessary.

Right and wrong IMO. Let's assume your not using carbon for making a super light DH bike (which you could for a WC racer like you say) and you then have more than enough room for impacts in a 40lb carbon bike. Lahars last forever, and I bet these Fury's will too.

 

[epic]

If Northrop-Grumman can build a carbon fibre airframe with a predicted 50-year service life for a carrier based fighter, I think a carbon DH bike is within the realm of possibility.