[illnotsick]

When adjusting compression I'm not thinking about pedaling, rather a balance between plushness and wallow resistance.

Can you explain what a wallowy rear end feels like rofl? Less compression = more plushness, but you risk using too much travel and X happens. More compression = more stiffness, so I would assume you give up some rear wheel traction? Send me a PM if you don't want to clutter another thread trying to explain LSC.

 

[Lelandjt]

Can you explain what a wallowy rear end feels like rofl? Less compression = more plushness, but you risk using too much travel and X happens.

X= Using more travel than necessary on an impact so successive impacts are taken when the suspension is already deep in the travel. This makes those secondary hits harsher and gives the impression that you need to speed up the rebound cuz you're "packing".
I also just like a planted, firm feel from the bike. When tossing it into left/rights or diving into a berm less movement = a more direct feel.

Too much LSC can limit traction, feel harsh, and tire you out.

 

[Lelandjt]

Question w/ respect to the post you responded to:
Wouldn't it be better to sag out the a55-end of the bike (and stiffen the front end) more for the steeps?

I don't like using more than 30% sag in the rear regardless of how steep it is but I'll slow the rear beginning rebound a click and soften the compression a click to keep from getting kicked forward. I have a taller front end than most riders and I like a linear fork that doesn't run much sag. I add a click or two more compression in front when riding really steep stuff.

 

[Raingauge]

Landed hard off a drop this weekend and ended up off the trail in the weeds. When I picked my bike up it looked like this and the suspension was locked out. I had to unbolt the swing link and reposition it to get the suspension to work again.

Has anyone else seen this?

 

[IH8Rice]

that problem might turn in to a reoccurring thing

 

[sikocycles]

After seeing that and the DHR picture I am happier with my M9

 

[IH8Rice]

After seeing that and the DHR picture I am happier with my M9

thankfully you dont need a new lower box link like some of us did.

 

[Curler]

It looks like the shock rebounded out too far?

 

[Acadian]

Landed hard off a drop this weekend and ended up off the trail in the weeds. When I picked my bike up it looked like this and the suspension was locked out. I had to unbolt the swing link and reposition it to get the suspension to work again.

Has anyone else seen this?

ouch...that's not good.

I remember when the original V10's had a top out bumper to prevent this from happening.

 

[IH8Rice]

I remember when the original V10's had a top out bumper to prevent this from happening.

yeah, it was a screw that was on the swingarm. you needed to take it off to extend the link/swingarm to get the shock on/off

 

[Huck Banzai]

It looks like the shock rebounded out too far?

This.

That could only happen if your shock hyper extended; you may want to look into shock damage...

 

[sikocycles]

thankfully you dont need a new lower box link like some of us did.

Why did you need that?

 

[IH8Rice]

Why did you need that?

early models werent machined right and didnt allow the bolts to fully bottom out causing them to come loose and creak. the set screw also damaged the aluminum bolts in the process.

 

[Raingauge]

This.

That could only happen if your shock hyper extended; you may want to look into shock damage...

Nope. Shock if fine. I rode it one more run that day and a bunch yesterday. If it had over extended it would have pulled apart and been puking oil.

I checked the BB area for damage and there's no marks there either.

Could the seat tube area have flexed enough to allow that link to swing backwards? It wouldn't go back to its original position without unbolting the link. I checked the sock mounts and all the pivots for slop and nothing.

 

[IH8Rice]

Nope. Shock if fine. I rode it one more run that day and a bunch yesterday. If it had over extended it would have pulled apart and been puking oil.

I checked the BB area for damage and there's no marks there either.

Could the seat tube area have flexed enough to allow that link to swing backwards? It wouldn't go back to its original position without unbolting the link. I checked the sock mounts and all the pivots for slop and nothing.

you can replicate what happened by unbolting the shock and pulling the swingarm up like in the pic. you can probably see what caused this to happen when you replicate it.

 

[rockdog]

That exact same same thing happened to a friend's driver 8 last summer in whistler. He hit the creek gap on A-line and when he landed the bike was fully rigid due the link over rotating like in your photo. He took it back to the shop and they called SC, they claimed that they had never heard of this happening before and offered him a V10 as a warranty replacement.

 

[jonKranked]

After seeing that and the DHR picture I am happier with my M9

where can i find said picture

 

[Raingauge]

where can i find said picture

I think he's talking about this...

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242552&page=7

 

[WBC]

I have seen several mk3 v10's do exactly that, sometimes several times per frame. None of those seemed to have any long-term damage. It usually happens when the bike cartwheels in a crash and the top of the wheel gets hit "down."

My old 951 did that once from a crash, but unlike the v10, one it happened once, it started doing it more and more. The 951 didn't need to be taken apart, you just hopped on and it would "snap back."

If Intense or Santa Cruz ever says they've never seen that, they're lying. That said, I think it's just a characteristic of vpp bikes, it's prob not that big of a deal, and I've never seen it ruin a shock. You could have way bigger problems!

 

[illnotsick]

VPP suspension operates dangerously close to a singularity point. Yours got hit on the top of the wheel pushing it down, making the suspension go on the other side of the singularity. My Mk2 does that with the shock off, I've never had it happen with everything bolted on though

 

[IH8Rice]

VPP suspension operates dangerously close to a singularity point.

is that like dividing by zero?

 

[SCARY]

Ooooooooooh ..."singularity point"....sounds so dangerous...and sexxyy!

 

[Sandwich]

yaw singularity point didn't have enough shimz

 

[chillindrdude]

perhaps singularity should be inflection point?

 

[Huck Banzai]

Keep your eye on the sparrow.

 

[Mr Nug]

I reckon a bit of rubber/material between the lower link and the bottom bracket would sort this out

 

[Raingauge]

The shop got an email back from Santa Cruz. They replied "weird we've never seen that before".

If it happens again I'll push the issue but for now everything seems ok.

 

[rockdog]

Sounds familiar, minus the warranty offer. If you want to talk with a shop who has dealt with this exact issue before call the cafe in kamloops. It will happen again, your bike has not healed itself.

 

[OGRipper]

Aww yeah:

Large v10c w/Vivid Air, 888 EVO ti, Formula Ones, e.13 DH cranks and guide ring, Enve DH bar, DT Wheels, Minion DHF F&R. Only a couple rides but loving it so far.

 

[scott@SCB]

Hey RM folks ,
Here's the scoop. The behavior that is being described is what we call “over-center”.
The two VPP links rotate in different directions, and at different speeds. The lower link is used to drive the shock on the V10. Early in the travel, the shock rate is very low (high leverage rate), which means the link rotates slowly, and then speeds up as you get deeper in the travel and the shock rate ramps up. If you could take the wheel and keep extending the suspension past the top-out, the lower link would stop rotating, and then begin rotating again. The upper link would continue rotating backward.
In practical and terms this “can’t” happen because the shock should top out, limiting the lower link rotation, and in turn, the upper link rotation.
But there are more variables than that. Shocks can vary in length, and manufacturing tolerances between pivot centerlines also play a major part. Controlling the dimensions on the aluminum front triangles was very hard to do, it’s a triangle that had really stiff connections and lots of welding that moved things around both before and after heat-treating. The one-piece layup and curing method used on the V10c front triangle allows for more precision and tighter tolerances.
In a bad crash, the wheel can get hit in ways that don’t happen during normal riding. That kind of impact, while topped out, can overextend the shock, and flex the frame and hardware enough that the link can “pop” over, which locks the linkage out and requires one of the shock bolts to be removed to get it back in place. The wheel can either get hit, or sometimes just the inertia of a DH wheel and tire is enough to do it.
If this happens when crashing, it shouldn’t be an issue. However, if this happens during riding and not crashing, you should contact our warranty department (warranty AT santacruzbicycles.com) and they will help sort you out. Despite the hundreds of robots that are involved in V10c fabrication and quality control, there’s always the rare possibility that an out of specification part or an unanticipated combination of factors could make that happen.

Here’s a little video showing how the links rotate to give you a visual representation -
Untitled on Vimeo
Obviously the shock has been removed in the video or you wouldn't be able to over-center it, but it gives you the basic idea.

Any other questions just shoot us an email to the info at santacruzbicycles.com address.

Scott Turner
Santa Cruz Bicycles

 

[Sandwich]

Dear internet:
RM just garnered a legitimate answer. Let it be known: good manufacturers listen.

KUDOS to Santa cruz for joining our community and providing a good answer.

 

[ChrisKring]

Props to Scott for replying on here.

I absolutely love my V10C. I have had it since the US Open.

I have also have had 3 years on my 2008 V10 and 3 years on my 2005 V10. Each model change gets better. The biggest change I have seen with the carbon is better cornering. Could be better torsional stiffness or something else but it is significantly better.

Taking it to Whistler in 7 days.

 

[inkasadventures]

Too much expeculation on this thread and little feedback about how it works. You guys should jump on one of these bikes and make your own test. Let the engeneers work on the numbers and focus on the riding.

I just bought this bike and it seems to be better than the old versions (had the 2010 model). The bike is amazingly light and corners very good. You can pull it out of the corners very easy due to the light weight of the bike. This bike is 36.0 lb. with all the stuff you see on it.

Just can tell you this bike is making me go faster than before.

There are some new adjustments you can make with this bike and I would like to know from other riders who are using this bike their opinions:

- The AngleSet Headset where you can play with the fork angle. I only tried the 0° and the 0.5° and seems to be better with the 0.5°. Who has tried the other settings and how it was? I know it depends on the trail you are riding but on normal conditions for a good DH trail, very technical, what's your setting?

- Rear travel: I found 10 inches is very smooth and lets you pass over almost anything but it also feels a little heavy and hard to lift it from the ground when you need to do it. For sure it's more comfortable for riding in this setting. I switched to 8.5" and it feels the difference but the bike responds faster to your movements when you try to lift the bike and corners quite good. A bit tougher but if you are strong, doesn't matter.

What are your feelings with all these settings?

 

[IH8Rice]

i guess it did make sense to go with a carbon swingarm

 

[RMboy]

i guess it did make sense to go with a carbon swingarm

I thought they said CB swingarms where not needed?

 

[IH8Rice]

I thought they said CB swingarms where not needed?

thats what i just said.

 

[DhDork]

I thought they said CB swingarms where not needed?

It's a conspiracy man! You have to have something new to come out with every two years or you will disrupt the e-space-time-continuum. Don't you know this?!

 

[William42]

egads, somebody in the bike industry thought they had figured out the best way to do something, and then later discovered a better way of doing it?! that is the first time that has ever happened EVER in any industry, and now we bikers have the egg on our face for being part of the first industry ever to have that happen.

 

[chillindrdude]

i wonder if they'll be retrofittable to existing V10c

 

[MmmBones]

It will retrofit the current V10. When SC announced a while back that they were making something new for the V10c that would be retrofittable, I knew that they had to be talking about a carbon swingarm. These swingarms look like they are about to go onto some Worlds bikes. Check out the RSA colors on what must be Mr. Minnaars new swingarm!