Yea i am probably running to little sag atm but i like the feeling so far and if **** hits the fan big time there is a little extra cushion to save my half hack ass. However i am trying to increase the sag little by little to see how it feel with more sag but i do like the responsiveness and the fact that i can mash the pedals a bit more than before with the demo 8. This one thing i also like, that there is many possible ways to experiment with the feeling of the bike.
Carbon V10
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Not since the second generation. Gen 3 and 4c are meant to run 30%. Of course this is more sag in inches than 8" bikes and the reason the static BB height is lower in the 8.5" setting. When sagged the V10c will have the same BB height in both settings when running the recommended 30% sag.
If you're feeling "on the bike" and want to be more "in the bike" slide the stanchions down in the crowns or use a different stem or bar to raise your hands.
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I've got a V10c and a Podium in my garage currently.I appreciate all the replies. This build isnt anything soon, but the V10c is just a masterpiece. And having only experienced personal bikes with SP and FSR suspensions, Im really curious how vpp is
And yes the medium looks spot on, and the SA is way slacker vs. my current bike, so adjusting in my part is necessary, along with other tweaks in terms of riding a bike with strict downhill geometry. With the V10 on top, other frames Im considering are the Podium and Wilson...and maybe the Demo in carbon
Where do you live? The full address would be great, assuming of course you are not Demo9's mom.
I've sent you a PM.I've got a V10c and a Podium in my garage currently.
no, there you go with the standard sag. i think the same spring should give correct sag in both settings (10" has higher leverage ratio than the 8.5") in both settings but idk for sure.
how can the sagged bb height remain the same in both settings running the same sag? that's why you'd run 40% in the longer one. also, i've just compared the '05. and the new v10, the leverage curve remained the same which should mean it's still meant to run 40% sag in the longer setting, geometry looks like that too. the model of the old one isn't perfectly accurate but i doubt it could be far off. somebody should shoot an e-mail for sag numbers to santacruz or take a good look at the manual. i remain with my 40% bet
EDIT - took a look at the santacruz site: starting point recommendation is between 30 and 40%, also the spring rate should be 50lbs lower for the 8.5" mode
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I dont know if bb height would be the exact same height but sag is measured as a % and bb height is a nominal number so in the higher travel 30% sag will be a higher amount of sag in mm than 30% in the lower setting. Which means that they should be somewhat close if they run the same % of sag. Quite simple math really.
10 x .3 = 3
8.5 x .3 = 2.55
So if that is the relative difference in static bb height the dynamic bb height will be the same.
10 x .3 = 3
8.5 x .3 = 2.55
So if that is the relative difference in static bb height the dynamic bb height will be the same.
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I stand by my post. I've been riding V10s since gen 2 and use a Vivid Air shock which lets you easily see sag and travel used. I use both travel settings often. I've used more than 30% and didn't like it.
your maths are off.
10-8.5=1.5 <- the bike is this lower without sag in the 8.5" setting
(2.55+1.5)-3=1.05 <-this is the difference, it's less at the bb but 1" is quite a lot. it's lower in the shorter setting with the same sag percentage. therefore if you want the dynamic geometry to stay the same in both settings, you need more sag in the longer setting, that was my point.
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Mind sharing your shock settings in 10" mode, and how much you weigh?
I will in a week when I'm back on the Mainland with my DH bike.
here's a thing that shows the options we were considering during the frame design, and whether or not to use two holes in the front triangle or not. we built a mule with all these options, and rode it, and then decided to go with two settings, B&E and C&E. E being the one hole in the front triangle, and B&D being the two spaces in the link. Obviously some of the combinations are not good, and one of the reasons we didn't make it possible to do them.
The travel reduction is taken from both ends of the 10" curve, so its not just 1.5 inches lower. The shock rate is rising, so shaft travel sag% of total is not equal to wheel travel % of total.
This is based on 30% of sag in shaft travel. 9.5 inch eye-eye minus 30% of 3 inch stroke = ~8.5 inches.
I'd make some slick thing showing all this but i'm not in marketing, and maybe you'll be interested in seeing all the combinations considered.
The travel reduction is taken from both ends of the 10" curve, so its not just 1.5 inches lower. The shock rate is rising, so shaft travel sag% of total is not equal to wheel travel % of total.
This is based on 30% of sag in shaft travel. 9.5 inch eye-eye minus 30% of 3 inch stroke = ~8.5 inches.
I'd make some slick thing showing all this but i'm not in marketing, and maybe you'll be interested in seeing all the combinations considered.
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According to santa cruz web site the bb height is 10" = 14.8" and 8.5" = 14.2", ergo closer to half an inch than your 1.5 inch. This is because of how they position the shock hole on the driving link, you could have the exact same static geo in both settings depending on how you position the shock hole. This is why you cant just think about the leverage at the wheel. The concept is a lot easier to visualize if you play with some circles in google sketch up for example.
I've been digging through this thread as I have a v10 with Vivid Air on the way. Somewhere in here he posted these settings below. I don't know which travel setting they are for.
I wish Santa Cruz would provide some baseline shock settings for the Vivid Air (beyond just the suggested PSI currently on their site). I like having at least a decent starting point when getting the settings dialed in.
Yes, those are my settings for 10" DH though I meant to say 225psi gives me slightly more than 30%. I'm now using 230. However, a different pump may give different readings. I'm also more like 170lb than 165. I also now use click 3 or 4 for ESR and 12 for BSR.
I only use the 8.5" setting for dirt jumping so I want it firm and poppy. I only go down 10psi and use the 5 or 6 click of compression. I usually back off both rebounds a click too.
While SC doesn't give baseline settings I think the shock is tuned well for the frame. Consider that all my settings are close to the middle and my weight is probably in the middle or the range.
I only use the 8.5" setting for dirt jumping so I want it firm and poppy. I only go down 10psi and use the 5 or 6 click of compression. I usually back off both rebounds a click too.
While SC doesn't give baseline settings I think the shock is tuned well for the frame. Consider that all my settings are close to the middle and my weight is probably in the middle or the range.
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its actually pretty easy to set it up.
set spring rate for sag (PSI), run LSC (blue knob) at 0 clicks, beginning stroke (red knob) at full open, and a few clicks of ending stroke (2.5mm allen screw).
ride it.
if it bucks too much off jumps for your liking, add more ending stroke.
if it dances over rock gardens/braking bumps too much for your liking, add more beginning stroke.
it it dives and bobs too much when you pedal, add more LSC.
in general, when i tune a shock or fork, i just set everything wide open until it feels right.
i think it was kidwoo who posted a good review of the vivid air (not on a v10) and explained how the ending stroke rebound essentially functions as a ride height control. run it wide open and use the beginning stroke to control the bucking off lips. if you run too much LSC you are losing all the benefits of riding a dialed VPP bike in the first place...
whoa double post. i would just like to add that i spent quite a bit of time in the 10" mode for the first time today riding a very hard trail, i've spent the last 8 months riding it in 8.5" mode. it feels the same geometry wise, just smoother out back. it felt like the exact same bike, aside from having a little less pop and a lot more gobble...
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Hi all. Is anyone running a CCDB/DBAir in their V10c? If so, any feedback (esp. on the DBAir) on ride feel vs a coil? Im in the process of getting a whole bike in a couple of weeks, spec'd with a Vivid R2C, and a CC shock is a shock I'm really considering once I do upgrade. CCDBAir looks real good at the moment. Cheers!
I have been running a CCDB now for a few weeks and it feels really good. It is better then the vivid air i got with the frame. The CCDB is quite a bit smoother and composed, it probably havent made me 10 sec faster but it has increased my confidence and the fun with riding
Thanks. Interesting. I know somehow its got to do with frame design ang type of suspension but a friend has a Vivid Air in his '11 Demo and hes a pretty good rider (ustemuf), and he is liking the Vivid Air more now vs. the CCDB hes used before.
I actually had a 2011 demo equipped with a vivid air before my v10, it handled the super rough stuff superbly but it couldnt handle small chatter as well as a vivid coil. So for me i feel a coil has the advantage of being both sensitive and big hit capable. On a coil the big hit capability can be tuned but an air shocks sensitivity will be hampered by more seals.
In general, especially if you dont plan on going pro i would choose which is more reliable and the vivid air i had on my demo didnt last long before it ran into trouble, which is why i mainly ride coil shocks. If a air shock looses pressure it is game over instantly whereas a coil is usable even if there is some leakage, so for me durability and sensitivity edges out precise spring rate and weight savings.
In general, especially if you dont plan on going pro i would choose which is more reliable and the vivid air i had on my demo didnt last long before it ran into trouble, which is why i mainly ride coil shocks. If a air shock looses pressure it is game over instantly whereas a coil is usable even if there is some leakage, so for me durability and sensitivity edges out precise spring rate and weight savings.
So wait, EVIL JN, do you have the CCDB air or coil?
A V10 has a higher leverage ratio than a Demo. This helps an air shock feel more sensative on chatter.
Thanks, makes sense. Even in the 8.5 setting? I'm gonna start mine in that travel setting. I'm gonna play around with the Vivid R2C that comes with it first, and see how I like it. I'm really looking at a CCDB Air IF I can't tune the Vivid to my liking...
The V10c also is progressive at the end of the stroke which suggests that the DBair isn't a good match. There are quite a few people out there struggling to get full travel on progressive frames.
I'm not sure why the Vivid Air doesn't seem to have this problem but can only speculate that the air can volume is bigger at full travel with the same pressure so the ramp up isn't as noticeable
Only know of one person on pinkbike I think with the v10c/DBair setup but no recent comments on it...
I'm not sure why the Vivid Air doesn't seem to have this problem but can only speculate that the air can volume is bigger at full travel with the same pressure so the ramp up isn't as noticeable
Only know of one person on pinkbike I think with the v10c/DBair setup but no recent comments on it...
Good to know man. Cheers.
Always a plus on lesser weight, but I wouldnt sacrifice that for a better ride.
And youre right on the Vivid Air, quite a bit run them and can even be used for a factory build.
Is the M9 progressive at the end stroke as well?
Really not an authority on this but seem to remember folk saying that all options are progressive but to varying degrees.
From : http://linkagedesign.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=m9
if the leverage ratio is correct it suggests that the DBAir would be a good fit in positions 2 and 3...
Sorry I realized I worded it kinda wrong. I know there are the slots to choose how progressive the frame will be, I guess different riders want different ride feels. I just wanted to hear/know some feedback on someone who has actually tried the CCDB Air in their V10c, and if the progressive frame+progressive shock does make the ride quite different. Like the others said, not gonna get full travel even on the bigger hits.
I have my m9 in the most linear rate slot.Its alot less progressive than the 951,which would hurt my legs ,it ramped up so much in the rough.
I have been running a Vivid Air on my V10C for a few months now and am loving it. I was a little nervous at first to try it out because I love the plushness of a coil shock. The Vivid Air surprised me. It is super plus and is handling the smaller chatter bumps just fine as well as the big hits. I also like how it pedals compared to a coil shock. Once it settles into the travel I feel like you can just hammer down on the pedals. I am sure it may not be as reliable as a coil as far as how often service is required but I'm really digging it so far.
its really only good in the most linear position (the top position.) i found it slightly too progressive in the middle and lower setting
Big J,
I weigh 175-180. If you are a bigger guy 200+ I would probably stay with a coil.
I weigh 175-180. If you are a bigger guy 200+ I would probably stay with a coil.
I'd even think a 190lb rider would be reaching the Vivid Air's max psi in the 10" setting.
just replaced my vivid air with an RC4....liking it the best so far
Have you run the Vivid coil R2C as well or just the air? I am really curious if there are any long term Vivid coil impressions paired with the V10c. Anyone?
Yep, I've got lots of time in on both the Vivid air and coil on this newest iteration of the v10 and like them both. For really rough tracks with lots of consecutive square edged hits, I prefer the coil. For a more lively, playful feel, I prefer the Air. Last fall at whistler I ran the Air for a week straight and loved it. I've got a bunch more time on it than that too.Have you run the Vivid coil R2C as well or just the air? I am really curious if there are any long term Vivid coil impressions paired with the V10c. Anyone?
Feel free to to ask more specific questions if you have them and I'll try to help.
^ Thanks man. Im gonna try the Vivid R2C coil for a bit. Will be riding the bike in the 8.5" setting first. Ill be up at Northstar this Sat so I'm quite curious how it'll be. Heaps of runs just to pound the bike and dial the suspension