[JRogers]

I think the frame looks pretty nice. The tubes look fairly small diameter; I wonder if they did that to increase wall thickness. But I guess in carbon XC and road frames there are very big differences in tube diameter as well, even within the same brands.

I probably wouldn't buy a carbon DH frame, though- at least not in the near future. But that has nothing to do with empirical facts (meaning: I know that if a carbon frame is well built for the application it will be more durable and stronger than aluminum). It's more just a feeling thing; I'm just kind of carbon averse. Aside from the back half of my road bike frame, I don't have a single carbon part on my bikes. Nothing to do with "reality," stuff just scares me a bit. I've probably just seen too many pictures of destroyed carbon road frames and handlebars.

 

[IH8Rice]

I probably wouldn't buy a carbon DH frame, though- at least not in the near future. But that has nothing to do with empirical facts (meaning: I know that if a carbon frame is well built for the application it will be more durable and stronger than aluminum). It's more just a feeling thing; I'm just kind of carbon averse. Aside from the back half of my road bike frame, I don't have a single carbon part on my bikes. Nothing to do with "reality," stuff just scares me a bit. I've probably just seen too many pictures of destroyed carbon road frames and handlebars.

i agree. im sure it will be strong enough, but there would always been a nagging thought in the back of my head thinking the bike will break.

 

[wood booger]

Yeah, you know what, i will tell you it cost more because you have to run equipment like

Autoclave

Thermo-press

Compressors for bladders

oh and lets not forget how much you have to pay to get rid of things like carbon fiber, epoxy, hardeners, resins, accelerators and used bladders. Can't throw that stuff in the trash because it's what's the word...oh yeah, TOXIC. That must be why only a few companies produce EVERYTHING carbon. The infrastructure to process all the carbon by products is HUGE.

So how bout you just log out and let the experts post in this thread

Yes, you speak the truth. But don't foget lots of labor for the carbon sheet layup process. I remember reading how it takes easton like 4hrs to layup and mold their new carbon hoops. There are a lot more plys in this beast. And a ton of $ and time to cut the original tooling for the molds.

Making things out of carbon can be easy (like your freakin' hood on that sick civic, brah), but not something complex like a bike frame.

 

[Cabdoctor]

Yes, you speak the truth. But don't foget lots of labor for the carbon sheet layup process. I remember reading how it takes easton like 4hrs to layup and mold their new carbon hoops. There are a lot more plys in this beast. And a ton of $ and time to cut the original tooling for the molds.

Making things out of carbon can be easy (like your freakin' hood on that sick civic, brah), but not something complex like a bike frame.

Thanks. I didn't even remember those guys getting paid. Just to put it in perspective. The binding epoxy they use for carbon metal interfaces is $60 a quart. Ask me how I know the price

 

[IH8Rice]

Ask me how I know the price

how do you know the price?

 

[karpi]

All this arguing over whether it will break or fail is really amusing, especially considering that when you compare what carbon is used for in other applications DH racing seems downright pedestrian. Check out a modern fighter jet some time, or the new Boeing 787 which is 80% composite by volume. http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2007/06/Boeing787DreamlinerCarles.jpg


And did any of you bother to read the info in the Dirt article?

Lifetime crash replacement
2 year design defect/manufacturing guarantee

I bet it even covers 'east coast' rocks too . . .

finally, someone with reading comprehension!

Also, to be fair, the video someone posted about that one guy hammering the frame is impressive but both doubtful. He is after all hammer on top of a wooden board that is moving around... Yes, an Alu frame wouldnt hold that, but I would have like to have seen him hammering the frame whilst on firm ground untill breaking it! hahaha, Im like the guy at myth busters, if it doesnt work, just do it until it blows up or something hahahaha

I've been told from a reasonable source that carbon fiber is getting cheaper in ASIA so it would make sense (now more than ever, specially with big leaps in tecnology) to start producing CF frames. I believe, and from my knowledge, Carbon can me more expense, i.e, 1 kg of carbon is more expense than 1 kg of alu, but, whilst you use 1 kg of alu (so to speak) per bike frame, you will how ever only use (yet again so to speak) 800 or 700 grms of CF per frame, thus making that cheaper. On one side you have to buy more materials (carbon fiber is a composite so you must mix it with a bunch of stuff, this will make it both heaver and or more durable and better suited for different porpuses), and on the other you have to pay for gas (welding), weld rods and electricity. What would actually and honestly make CF frames more expensive is the amount of hours invested by a couple of workers in producing one frame versus aluminium frames, this is the only place I can see it being more expense. Oh, and the amount of hours designing a CF frame since FEA models are more complex when designing CF since it is a more unpredictable material. Now, the only real reason I see this frame spiking up the price is the pure strategic marketing this whole thing is carrying:

Caron Fibure is the Future
New Product
Big Improvemente over previous designs
All the loyal customers
etc, etc

I can see that being a bigger factor in price than the production in itself. Just to propose a thesis, I would have to say, when and if it does make it to production, the first batch will be super expensive. Remeber, there is a learning curve not only for the designers but also for manufacturing processes and companys. If my beliefs are right, by the time the second batch of carbon V10 comes around, other manufactures will have followed on the Carbon Fiber trend, thus creating more competition... and we all know what that means... LOWER PRICES! This is of course only theoritcal, but posible. On the other hand, by the time that happens, Alu frames will sell for dead cheap.

I hope Im not making this long, but for all of you who do not trust CF, is it because of personal experience, or from fact?
I on the other hand can't say I have facts to really give any of my statements truth, but what I can say from personal experience (not from the bicycle industry) is from the use of CF used in windsurfing. For ages now CF has been used in a wide range of products in Windsurfing, the classic example being the Mast, but more importantle the Boom. In this case, the boom recieves much more impacts (in all directions, from the water, bumps and user) than most other components (excepte the board). The best booms are made out of CF because it is known the last longer, don't deform like Alu ones do, and weigh in a lot less.

Therefore, from my personal experience, I have to say I have a lot more confidence (maybe now due to advances in CF production and development in the bike industry) in a carbon fiber frame.

FYI, did any one read the article at all? it seems few have... did anyone read the part about the wall thicknesses? READ people read... pictures do say a 1000 words, but reading will tell you what you cannot see.

and sorry, my english sucks right now.

 

[bogusbill]

Anyone have an idea of where it will be made?

 

[davetrump]

FYI, did any one read the article at all? it seems few have... did anyone read the part about the wall thicknesses? READ people read... pictures do say a 1000 words, but reading will tell you what you cannot see.

nah, they all want it summarized since they were out training to be pro with yuroshek

 

[karpi]

hey, look on the bright side, if and when you get pisted at your bike you can hammer it and it won't break! hahaha

 

[WBC]

Anyone have an idea of where it will be made?

 

[LukeD]

All this arguing over whether it will break or fail is really amusing, especially considering that when you compare what carbon is used for in other applications DH racing seems downright pedestrian. Check out a modern fighter jet some time, or the new Boeing 787 which is 80% composite by volume. http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2007/06/Boeing787DreamlinerCarles.jpg


And did any of you bother to read the info in the Dirt article?

Lifetime crash replacement
2 year design defect/manufacturing guarantee

I bet it even covers 'east coast' rocks too . . .

while i completely agree with you, the guys over at santa cruz are not the same ones at lockheed or boeing. layup and the type of resin you use is a HUGE part of the strength. That's not to say they couldn't learn, but I'm still giving it a year or 2 until they have all the bugs sorted out. in terms of durability.... I've had the same goalie mask made of kevlar and carbon fiber since 2006 with no issues. it has seen 90mph+ shots, skates, multiple impacts etc... no reason a bike couldn't be as durable using the same material.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

If p-spec's self dug grave were any deeper, he'd fall out the other side of the earth.

Honestly what's bugging more than all the mean, ignorant remarks is p-spec's grammar... I hope English is a second language buddy.






.

 

[IH8Rice]

Not really fair to compare ANYTHING in F1 to the real world IMO... those struts failed cos they were designed with a safety factor of like 1%, not specifically because they were carbon.

yep. they are treading that fine line of lightweight vs strength....and the STR team has been walking on the wrong side of that line.

 

[disasterarea]

This happens on every DH forum whenever anyone posts about anything new. It's funny because you wouldn't think that DHers would be the ultraconservative segment of the MTB population, but I guess that's how it is.

pure e-speculation but perhaps this is not surprising. Anyone (foolish enough ) to hurl themselves down a hill/steep incline littered with rocks/obstacles at a great rate of knots (OK some greater than others and I certainly fit in why not walk instead group) for...fun? Where a mistake can be very costly in terms of injury, would want to have confidence in what ever equipment they are on. With Al/steel dh bikes everyone knows what to expect as there is a lot of data gathered over the years. However, with carbon being the new kid on the block there is a much less body of knowledge for everyone to base their confidence on. It is probably this unknown that everyone is raging against. Perhaps this will change as carbon bikes become more common. Or not.

This does bring me to a hippie point though. If/when carbon frames become more mainstream, and since they can't really be recycled like steel and Al can, what are we going to do with all the carbon frames that eventually fatigue? Of course, the volume of waste generated in the form of bicycle frames is most likely insignificant compared to other forms of non recyclable waste we currently put out. However it's still another piece of straw on the camel's back.

EDIT:

forgot to mention, wow, that carbon V10 sure looks svelte and lush at the same time whereas the older ones looked a bit clumsy with the camel hump.

 

[xy9ine]

This does bring me to a hippie point though. If/when carbon frames become more mainstream, and since they can't really be recycled like steel and Al can, what are we going to do with all the carbon frames that eventually fatigue?

wall art of course! does anybody really take their old m1's, super8's etc to the recycler?

 

[P.T.W]

Not really fair to compare ANYTHING in F1 to the real world IMO... those struts failed cos they were designed with a safety factor of like 1%, not specifically because they were carbon.

LOL this thread cracks me up

Hey Socket an co, while it was thought at first that the suspension failure on Buemi's STR was a "carbon wishbone" failure. There was a press release a few days later by STR pointing the finger at some new developmental uprights......... Oh an guess what shiny metallic material they where made out of???
http://www.f1technical.net/news/14636

Had to point this out as in just like the context of this thread people tend to assume that carbon fibre is guilty till proven innocent rather than vice versa.

 

[Percy]

LOL this thread cracks me up

Hey Socket an co, while it was thought at first that the suspension failure on Buemi's STR was a "carbon wishbone" failure. There was a press release a few days later by STR pointing the finger at some new developmental uprights......... Oh an guess what shiny metallic material they where made out of???
http://www.f1technical.net/news/14636

Had to point this out as in just like the context of this thread people tend to assume that carbon fibre is guilty till proven innocent rather than vice versa.

Haha! Take that Carbon haters!!

And now back to normal service.........The new carbon V10 is teh sexy, and if I wasnt mortgaged past my eyeballs, I'd buy one tomorrow.

 

[MrPlow]

Yes, you speak the truth. But don't foget lots of labor for the carbon sheet layup process. I remember reading how it takes easton like 4hrs to layup and mold their new carbon hoops. There are a lot more plys in this beast. And a ton of $ and time to cut the original tooling for the molds.

Making things out of carbon can be easy (like your freakin' hood on that sick civic, brah), but not something complex like a bike frame.

Your right with the labour. It takes me a good day to layup just a mainframe. That's not including headset. Swingarms are another day...
The actual material costs aren't too bad. It's the labour.

 

[zuca]

here are more photos

http://www.freeridezone.net/smf/index.php?topic=26650.msg371115;boardseen#new

 

[Demomonkey]

and if I wasnt mortgaged past my eyeballs, I'd buy one tomorrow.

You and me to bro

 

[monkeyfcuker]

Just wait, we'll see a green tax on carbon goods sooner rather than later plus a recycling deposit!

 

[dondon]

Some more behind the scenes info from the engineers. http://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/features/Developing-the-Santa-Cruz-Carbon-V104,2365/sspomer,2

 

[FarkinRyan]

If p-spec's self dug grave were any deeper, he'd fall out the other side of the earth.

Honestly what's bugging more than all the mean, ignorant remarks is p-spec's grammar... I hope English is a second language buddy.

Pretty sure he's a Quebecois so English isn't his first language, it's not really fair to play that card. A card that is fair to play however is the fact that he is wilfully, deliberately and almost inconceivably stupid in just about every way that it is possible to be. Given that, I'm impressed that he's survived on this Earth long enough to be able to have regular access to a computer and the internet.

As far as the bike goes. DO. WANT. Played with one of those new fangled carbon Blur's yesterday and Jesus H Christ it was sicker than cancer. This thing addresses just about everything 'quirky' about the current V10, drops damn near a kilo in weight and quadruples the sex appeal. Sign me up.

Also, did anyone else find the way that MrPlow tenderly stroked his frame after every few blows with the hammer hilarious? "I'm sorry...I just love you so much...LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!!!!"

 

[MrPlow]

You should have seen what I did with the camera off
The head tube copped it

 

[al-irl]

I can't believe no one has mentioned anything other than the fact that its carbon. Gt have been using carbon in the furey for the last 2 years. There was also the carbon lobo back in the day. Funny thing is the only one of them i saw broken the alloy lug had broken in two. Theres loads of other cool things about this bike other than it being carbon. They've lowered the leverage made it slacker and answered most of the things that put me off owning a v10. I like it alot probably won't own one as i don't like paying retail but if i was in a position to buy one I don't think the fact that its carbon would put me off.

 

[frango]

Here's the answer to my question about the weight loss
"The bike features adjustable travel from 8.5 to 10-inches, head angle anywhere from 63 to 66 degrees based on travel and headset sleeves and a nearly indestructible carbon front triangle that comes in at 600 grams less than the aluminum versions"

 

[Banshee Rider]

I feel like that vital video was made for this forum; "Absurd angles people think they need" and "interesting to hear what people complain about this time." Quality. Love those guys.

 

[ChrisKring]

This does bring me to a hippie point though. If/when carbon frames become more mainstream, and since they can't really be recycled like steel and Al can, what are we going to do with all the carbon frames that eventually fatigue? Of course, the volume of waste generated in the form of bicycle frames is most likely insignificant compared to other forms of non recyclable waste we currently put out. However it's still another piece of straw on the camel's back.

Not only can carbon fiber can be recycled and it currently is. Basically, the part is shreaded to break the fibers up into shorter fibers that are then used in other applications where long fibers are not required. All of easton's carbon parts are recycled this way.

 

[al-irl]

Yeah I'd defenitly agree with that. We should all start looking for 57degree head angles now

 

[bansheefr]

No idea if this has been posted yet, but this thread is too long to check...

"SANTA CRUZ BICYCLES WILL OFFER HEADSET CUPS THAT ALLOW ANGLES TO CHANGE BY 1/2 DEGREE INCREMENTS
(EACH DEGREE CHANGES WEELBASE 10MM), INCREASE STACK BY 10MM, BB HEIGHT BY 3MM, HT ANGLE BY .4 DEGREES." ~ http://santacruzbicycles.com/v10_carbon/

I like that most companies are offering adjustability in their frames. Then when you don't have a frame with adjustability, you have a angled reducer cups.

 

[slyfink]

You should have seen what I did with the camera off
The head tube copped it

anyway you can post that video outside of Facebook? I'm a facebook boycotter...

 

[disasterarea]

Not only can carbon fiber can be recycled and it currently is. Basically, the part is shreaded to break the fibers up into shorter fibers that are then used in other applications where long fibers are not required. All of easton's carbon parts are recycled this way.

thanks, you learn something new everyday! But do you have to deposite the carbon parts to specific collection sites or will the city take care of the sorting? The recycling technology being there may mean little if the parts never arrive to be treated.

 

[bizutch]

thanks, you learn something new everyday! But do you have to deposite the carbon parts to specific collection sites or will the city take care of the sorting? The recycling technology being there may mean little if the parts never arrive to be treated.

I am assuming that Chris is referring to when Easton warranties blown to bits products, they recycle the returned one.

 

[sikocycles]

No a big fan of SC but this bike sure is sweet. I may be on a SC when and if this comes out

 

[frorider]

Some more behind the scenes info from the engineers. http://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/features/Developing-the-Santa-Cruz-Carbon-V104,2365/sspomer,2

The adjustable link has built-in grease ports for easy maintenance and the swingarm remains aluminum as testing revealed no significant weight savings in using a carbon rear end beefed up for the rigors of downhill riding.

this is where things get interesting. there have been several posts in this thread about 'strength' and how CF is used in aerospace technology, F1, etc. Those applications typically do not involve regular sharp impact with rocks, and the sometimes invisible (to naked eye) failures that can develop as a result. I recall reading that the GT frame engineers went out of their way to focus on impact resistance, which is why their frame is not light.

i am not a CF hater...it has outstanding structural / load-bearing qualities. reading between the lines, it appears SC played around with CF wall thickness on the rear triangle (obviously they didn't want to repeat the embarrasing chainstay failure at interbike w/ the CF blur) and, coupled with the complexity and cost of the rear triangle, they looked at the existing driver 8 rear tri and thought Hmmm, that would make life easier. I.e. for the seat/CS areas that need to resist repeated impacts, the weight saving of CF starts to decrease.

I have no doubt that the front-facing portion of the downtube on the new V10 is super beefy, both in the structural member sense and in the repeated impact resistance sense. I also suspect that there are portions of the front triangle that, if impacted just right by a sharp rock at high speed, could have cracking failure issues (as is the case with most aluminum frames -- the difference w/ alu is that a visible inspection tells you a lot).

 

[xy9ine]

I also suspect that there are portions of the front triangle that, if impacted just right by a sharp rock at high speed, could have cracking failure issues (as is the case with most aluminum frames -- the difference w/ alu is that a visible inspection tells you a lot).

though in my experience / observations, a thick walled carbon structure is not going to fail catastrophically (at least in the relatively low load application of bicycles) without observable destruction. ie, if an impact was severe enough to cause significant structural damage, you'd see it, and there would be an observable progression as the layers cracked & came apart.

 

[IH8Rice]

their 1 meter drop test of 110lbs is pretty impressive when comparing it to the "industry standard" of 50lbs at 450mm's

 

[demo 9]

I heard that they canceled the production and are drawing up a prototype made of cement-to be produced by none other than DW! Online lab tests showed that the pixels on the computer screen made of carbon just werent strong enough, and that the top scientists on ridemonkey are convinced it just cannot be done.

 

[gemini2k]

Theres loads of other cool things about this bike other than it being carbon.

interesting to hear what people complain about this time." Quality. Love those guys.

But do the pivot bearings still suck? Or are they actually specing properly sized bearings nowadays? Cause it was really sweet having the bearings begin to seize up and get chunky after 2-3 months of riding in bone dry conditions. (Disclaimer: I'm basing this off my experience with my vp free and some other V-10's I've seen. Dunno if this has been changed in the currenct production version).

 

[ChrisKring]

I am assuming that Chris is referring to when Easton warranties blown to bits products, they recycle the returned one.

Correct, I was refering to warrenty/crash replacement returns. However, soon the US will start to move toward end of life policies that will require that manufactures recycle products returned by consumers at the end of their usefull lifespan. This is currently being introduced in Europe. So basically when you TV stops working, you return it to the Sony and they need to disassemble it and turn it into new raw material. Currently, this will increase cost. However, as product design and reclaimation technology improves, this should result in lower cost products.

The company that buys Easton's scrap gave my group at work a presentation on what they have to offer. I instantly recognized the Easton parts. Anyway, they recycle it and sell the carbon fibers and also make parts using some really innovative technology to avoid scrap by creating a net shape prior to molding. The first thing I though was bicycles. Too bad that there isn't much money in bikes.