[frorider]

though in my experience / observations, a thick walled carbon structure is not going to fail catastrophically (at least in the relatively low load application of bicycles) without observable destruction. ie, if an impact was severe enough to cause significant structural damage, you'd see it, and there would be an observable progression as the layers cracked & came apart.

i agree with much of what you are saying. just wanted to add that in the video posted above, there is a cross-sectioned portion of the frame, and clearly much of the v10 front triangle has a moderate (at most) wall thickness.

to me it's just e-speculation though regarding where they thickened it. we know they thickened it on the fwd part of the lower downtube. it appears they kept it thin on the rear part of the downtube, which makes sense -- pretty much zero chance of big impact there, unless you're playing horseshoes with your bike. How thick are the walls on the entire front triangle? we don't know.

time will tell. as i've said, i'm not in the 'extremely for' or 'extremely against' camp. one of the byproducts of a long career in engineering.

 

[Bikael Molton]

(obviously they didn't want to repeat the embarrasing chainstay failure at interbike w/ the CF blur)

I hadn't heard about that myself, so posting the image here for reference.

MTBR Thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=559234

 

[4130biker]

I feel like that vital video was made for this forum; "Absurd angles people think they need" and "interesting to hear what people complain about this time." Quality. Love those guys.

I think santacruz is on the right track for selling bikes in this day and age, and I can understand thier bitterness in dealing with a market like ours.

I respect people that can hop on anything and just rail- like most pros. That's not to say that any bike is good, but if it's close (and many are)- c'mon!!!!!

I think the bike looks amazing, and I'm hopeful that the aluminum version will continue and see some of the same upgrades. I've been eyeballing SC bikes for a while, and I'd like to pull the trigger on this new version.

 

[TKCastle]

They should use east coast rocks on that impact device to test the front triangle, they are much heavier. They are using RF Atlas cranks on that test bike! Don't they know that they strip easy and are pain to assemble properlly compared to the Saints ?

 

[IH8Rice]

they are using RF Atlas cranks on that test bike! Don't they know that they strip easy and are pain to assemble properlly compared to the Saints ?

 

[4130biker]

Don't they know that they strip easy and are pain to assemble properlly compared to the Saints ?

Maybe the stripping cranks are meant to fail before the cf..

 

[rosenamedpoop]

Pretty sure he's a Quebecois so English isn't his first language, it's not really fair to play that card. A card that is fair to play however is the fact that he is wilfully, deliberately and almost inconceivably stupid in just about every way that it is possible to be. Given that, I'm impressed that he's survived on this Earth long enough to be able to have regular access to a computer and the internet.

Yeah I'm aware of the Frenchy-ness of his area, I just didn't want to be a complete jerk and assume that's why p-spec is so rude, snarly, and questionably literate.



.

 

[General Lee]

while i completely agree with you, the guys over at santa cruz are not the same ones at lockheed or boeing. layup and the type of resin you use is a HUGE part of the strength. That's not to say they couldn't learn, but I'm still giving it a year or 2 until they have all the bugs sorted out. in terms of durability.... I've had the same goalie mask made of kevlar and carbon fiber since 2006 with no issues. it has seen 90mph+ shots, skates, multiple impacts etc... no reason a bike couldn't be as durable using the same material.

interesting fact that Boeing outsourced production of tailfins (an extremely high-stress component on any plane) and and parts of the wings to Asia to reduce costs. Likewise, I highly doubt SC is making these frames in-house and sorting bugs out on their own. Also, this frame is the result of over 2 years of design starting with other carbon bikes in the SC lineup. I wouldn't characterize the carbon v10 as anything close to a first effort.

 

[IH8Rice]

Likewise, I highly doubt SC is making these frames in-house and sorting bugs out on their own.

in the video they said they did lab testing at the manufacturer and they spent 2 weeks "over there"

 

[MrPlow]

I think SC should hire all the RM guru's here that have probably never even touched raw carbon cloth to design this bike (sorry to those here that have some idea). Clearly we all know more about carbon than they do and there is no way they would have thought about impact resistance and carbon's crappo shear strength right??
Again, carbon can be made to resist impact. Through thick walls and other means. My bike has 2 outer cosmetic layers and an impact absorbing membrane with all the 'structural' layup inside. My hammertime video on FB didn't even penetrate to the membrane.
X9ine will also know from his Lahar how damn tough this stuff can be.
Please, if you have doubts, buy some carbon and have a play. It is amazing ****.

 

[LMC]

I think SC should hire all the RM guru's here that have probably never even touched raw carbon cloth to design this bike (sorry to those here that have some idea). Clearly we all know more about carbon than they do and there is no way they would have thought about impact resistance and carbon's crappo shear strength right??
Again, carbon can be made to resist impact. Through thick walls and other means. My bike has 2 outer cosmetic layers and an impact absorbing membrane with all the 'structural' layup inside. My hammertime video on FB didn't even penetrate to the membrane.
X9ine will also know from his Lahar how damn tough this stuff can be.
Please, if you have doubts, buy some carbon and have a play. It is amazing ****.

Your video was similar to an 'experiment' i tried. A 3mm thick carbon tube i had laid up by resin transfer didnt come out as expected, there was way too much resin and some delamination right from the outset. So i hit it with a claw hammer to see if i could break it, i had to stop when my hand got too sore, yet there wasnt even the slightest dent on the tube. GT did a similar thing to the Fury as part of a basic test and they couldnt break it either.

 

[Huck Banzai]

I hadn't heard about that myself, so posting the image here for reference.

MTBR Thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=559234

Looks like some paint chipping and a ding; paints cracked around maybe, but not the structure - that would take an astounding hit.

Mind you I have destroyed more than 1 aluminum frame in similar circumstances, and had A LOT worse failures as a result. I witnessed an M3 swingarm destroyed in a seemingly benign crash.

Whats the follow up on this 'failure' - it doesnt look like a failure, but rather an unfortunate crash; nothing is indestructible and I propose that an alu version would have suffered greater, more significant and ride ending damage.

My 4 year old Monkey Lite DH have been dropped, crashed, and ridden pretty hard and still a-ok. The 'replace it every...' is also a load, as well as the 'invisible damage' BS. this is not 1996, keep it real!

Its great to see so many proponents when only a few years back (and discusssing the aforementioned bars) the consenus went the other way. I must be ahead of my time!

 

[General Lee]

I feel like that vital video was made for this forum; "Absurd angles people think they need" and "interesting to hear what people complain about this time." Quality. Love those guys.

rumor floating around last Fall was that a certain unsigned member of their race team wanted some new angles/suspension options too. Hence testing bikes w/out having a contract . . . . just a rumor though.

I got a bit of a laugh hearing the video. Sure, blame the 'internet' for redesigning the angles and suspension . . . riiiiiight.

 

[IH8Rice]

My 4 year old Monkey Lite DH have been dropped, crashed, and ridden pretty hard and still a-ok. The 'replace it every...' is also a load, as well as the 'invisible damage' BS. this is not 1996, keep it real!

having carbon bars that have taking a hard beating for 4 years is kinda sketchy IMO.

 

[davetrump]

having carbon bars that have taking a hard beating for 4 years is kinda sketchy IMO.

LOVE the carbon frame, so awesome... the naysayers are simply uninformed

that said... I don't care what a handle bar is made of, I still put new ones on my DH bike once a year (i know their still good and usually end up on a trail bike, or are given to a friend who needs parts). Simple piece of mind, and nothing more. They are cheap enough and it is without a doubt the last part on a bike I ever want to break.

As far as the V10 goes... anything that breaks the Carbon frame will have easily destroyed the aluminum one too, so it's not like anyone would have the material to blame for their crash/mistake, etc.

 

[IH8Rice]

that said... I don't care what a handle bar is made of, I still put new ones on my DH bike once a year (i know their still good and usually end up on a trail bike, or are given to a friend who needs parts). Simple piece of mind, and nothing more. They are cheap enough and it is without a doubt the last part on a bike I ever want to break.

i replace mine every year now too. i broke a handlebar that was a few years old and it scared the sh!t outa me. like you said, they are cheap enough to replace every year and not have to worry about going off a drop and eating sh!t cause your bars broke.

 

[Huck Banzai]

This on an FR/AM bike, but plenty of beatings! I have a tendency to notice impending failure (have broken plent of things, or rather cracked or ALMOST broke, but noticed something and this retired) and have grown to trust it. These bars have some more life in them, but are on an Trail/AM bike as of 2010.

AND, I'm #260

 

[LukeD]

interesting fact that Boeing outsourced production of tailfins (an extremely high-stress component on any plane) and and parts of the wings to Asia to reduce costs. Likewise, I highly doubt SC is making these frames in-house and sorting bugs out on their own. Also, this frame is the result of over 2 years of design starting with other carbon bikes in the SC lineup. I wouldn't characterize the carbon v10 as anything close to a first effort.

that I did not know.... in terms of SC outsourcing the carbon work.

 

[pelo]

The bike is sick.

The "I prefer a bike in a perticular weight range for plowing rock gardens" perception is kind of funny.

 

[toodles]

I wish there was a way we could post up a pic of the frame every page. Damn it is hot.

 

[Percy]

There is.

 

[norbar]

having carbon bars that have taking a hard beating for 4 years is kinda sketchy IMO.

Easton monkey lite is CNT according to them. It's a bit different than regular carbon - more resistant to hits if I'm right and if someone would be able to make a frame from it I'm pretty sure it would shut up all the nay sayers very fast(not likely because of the costs). I've used mine for 2.5 years and they are very scratched and had many direct rock hits and tree stops. Still work though I've changed them because of the stupid easton angles. I'd love to see more stuff out of this material and I'd love a 760 cnt flatbar.

 

[LMC]

I find it funny how the uproar that follows every carbon fibre DH bike never seems to surround a carbon fibre helmet.

I think id be more worried about protecting my head in a crash than my frame!

 

[monkeyfcuker]

I find it funny how the uproar that follows every carbon fibre DH bike never seems to surround a carbon fibre helmet.

I think id be more worried about protecting my head in a crash than my frame!

Something something East coast rocks something something. . . .

 

[HardtailHack]

i replace mine every year now too. i broke a handlebar that was a few years old and it scared the sh!t outa me. like you said, they are cheap enough to replace every year and not have to worry about going off a drop and eating sh!t cause your bars broke.

My FSA K-Force carbon bars are now four years old and still going strong, they have outlasted a couple of frames but I am going to retire them as my other carbon bars cracked after 20hrs of use and it has scared e a bit.

 

[IH8Rice]

Easton monkey lite is CNT according to them. It's a bit different than regular carbon - more resistant to hits if I'm right and if someone would be able to make a frame from it I'm pretty sure it would shut up all the nay sayers very fast(not likely because of the costs). I've used mine for 2.5 years and they are very scratched and had many direct rock hits and tree stops. Still work though I've changed them because of the stupid easton angles. I'd love to see more stuff out of this material and I'd love a 760 cnt flatbar.

My FSA K-Force carbon bars are now four years old and still going strong, they have outlasted a couple of frames but I am going to retire them as my other carbon bars cracked after 20hrs of use and it has scared e a bit.

well you guys have a lot more faith in 4 year old carbon handlebars than i do.

 

[Steve M]

I find it funny how the uproar that follows every carbon fibre DH bike never seems to surround a carbon fibre helmet.

I think id be more worried about protecting my head in a crash than my frame!

Helmets are designed to be destroyed in order to save your head, not really a useful comparison to something that you NEVER want to fail structurally.

 

[W4S]

That bike is sick! i bet SC didn't make it full cf just because of that one pic of the blur. Next version in a couple months will be full carbon once everybody has forgotten about that pic. too bad, i bet they were planning on releasing a full cf version from the start. what's the saying in marketing, you have to appeal to the lowest common denominator?

 

[IH8Rice]

That bike is sick! i bet SC didn't make it full cf just because of that one pic of the blur. Next version in a couple months will be full carbon once everybody has forgotten about that pic. too bad, i bet they were planning on releasing a full cf version from the start. what's the saying in marketing, you have to appeal to the lowest common denominator?

did you watch the video? the explain why the rear triangle is aluminum

 

[General Lee]

That bike is sick! i bet SC didn't make it full cf just because of that one pic of the blur. Next version in a couple months will be full carbon once everybody has forgotten about that pic. too bad, i bet they were planning on releasing a full cf version from the start. what's the saying in marketing, you have to appeal to the lowest common denominator?

I bet if you listen to the interview on Vital you'll know why it's not full carbon . . . or you can just keep looking at pictures on the internet and make up whatever you want. how does the saying go, 'don't confuse me with facts?'

 

[W4S]

yes, they said they couldn't make it any stronger than aluminum but soon they will be able to make it a lot stronger, got it. One of my buddies rides a carbon Ransom with cf sram cranks. He took a pretty bad fall on a really rocky trail and the carbon cranks deflected so much that it bent his cf chainstay about a half inch. the cranks still work great, can't tell that anything happened to them and the chainstay has had zero issues in several months of hard riding. if the frame and cranks had been aluminum, mag, alloy, steel, he'd have walked down the trail and had to replace the parts. I just think that, if properly done, cf is a much better bike material than super thin aluminum, where i've had about 5 instances of major bike failures that have ended in injury, near death, wtf just happened, etc.

 

[General Lee]

yes, they said they couldn't make it any stronger than aluminum but soon they will be able to make it a lot stronger, got it. One of my buddies rides a carbon Ransom with cf sram cranks. He took a pretty bad fall on a really rocky trail and the carbon cranks deflected so much that it bent his cf chainstay about a half inch. the cranks still work great, can't tell that anything happened to them and the chainstay has had zero issues in several months of hard riding. if the frame and cranks had been aluminum, mag, alloy, steel, he'd have walked down the trail and had to replace the parts. I just think that, if properly done, cf is a much better bike material than super thin aluminum, where i've had about 5 instances of major bike failures that have ended in injury, near death, wtf just happened, etc.

Cool story. I have a fiberglass boat that i drove into a dock once and nothing happened, so based on that I'm positive Santa Cruz will make the next swingarm out of fiberglass instead of carbon


and listen again, they didn't say they couldn't make it stronger. They said that they couldn't gain any significant weight savings by making it out of carbon. That being the case, it's way more cost effective/less labor intensive (cheaper/easier) to stick with aluminum.

 

[W4S]

Cool story. I have a fiberglass boat that i drove into a dock once and nothing happened, so based on that I'm positive Santa Cruz will make the next swingarm out of fiberglass instead of carbon

at least you can podium on the world cup internet douche tour.

yes, i think if one bike company can make a good cf frame then there are probably a couple more that can figure it out. i'm pretty sure it wasn't dumb luck that the bike didn't fail.

 

[John P.]

Sweet looking bike.

Anyone want to buy a Session 88? I'm going to sell my current ride ASAP, as I'm sure the new V10 will be available for purchase before my next race. (and if not, I'll just go on the internet and b*tch about it)

Next up: start a sticky'ed thread for tuning the suspension and sourcing replacement parts.

 

[IH8Rice]

That being the case, it's way more cost effective/less labor intensive (cheaper/easier) to stick with aluminum.

plus, they are using a existing rear end from the Driver 8

 

[detour]

Is it just me or does anyone else see a scratch/crack in the paint on the shock link mount bolt on the frame, in the "Developing the Santa Cruz Carbon V10.4" video from vitalmtb at 4:09, before they blend in the text. Oh well, might be a scratch or fuzz...
And no, I don't doubt carbon, I just think a lot companies go at it the wrong way. If those frames were to fail, those small diameter bolt holes with their small "clamping" surface to adsorb the load would be my best guess.

 

[primo661]

having carbon bars that have taking a hard beating for 4 years is kinda sketchy IMO.

Try carbon bars that have taken a beating for over 9 years! A mate of mine is still riding Greg Minnaars old Global Racing Orange 222 from 2001 with the original monkey light carbon bars still going strong. I'd say carbon has proved itself time and time again. I'd trust it over aluminium but thats just me.

 

[MrPlow]

Great to see some carbon love here finally. I have had a set of carbon fsa bars but still replaced em hey. Just make sure you use some carbon clamp (read clear spray paint ) so they aren't getting clamped too tight and theory is they should last forever. Personally I reckon SC got the quote back from the chinamen for the carbon rear end and decided screw that. Just a guess though but I would say that's a fairly full on mould. Anyone here riding a bcd or had anything to do with them? He doesn't post here anymore right??

 

[LukeD]

Sweet looking bike.

Anyone want to buy a Session 88? I'm going to sell my current ride ASAP, as I'm sure the new V10 will be available for purchase before my next race. (and if not, I'll just go on the internet and b*tch about it)

Next up: start a sticky'ed thread for tuning the suspension and sourcing replacement parts.

DUUUDE, i just sold my sunday and paid for one in full... wtf, i heard it was suppose to be here by friday what's taking so long?








*sarcasm*

 

[IH8Rice]

Try carbon bars that have taken a beating for over 9 years! A mate of mine is still riding Greg Minnaars old Global Racing Orange 222 from 2001 with the original monkey light carbon bars still going strong. I'd say carbon has proved itself time and time again. I'd trust it over aluminium but thats just me.

your friend has some cajones then